23:06:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-dive
23:06:44 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/11/03-aria-dive-irc
23:06:47 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
23:06:47 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
23:06:52 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria-dive
23:07:00 <Adam_Page> present+
23:07:50 <jamesn> BGaraventa: Issue for some years where browsers have chosen on their own which roles etc need to be traversed
23:08:27 <scottono> present+
23:08:55 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821
23:09:15 <jamesn> BGaraventa: first determine which roles should/should not be traversed
23:11:31 <jamesn> scottono: example https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821#issuecomment-1267695450
23:11:59 <jamesn> q+ to ask is this not error correction at this point?
23:13:25 <jamesn> ack me
23:13:25 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to ask is this not error correction at this point?
23:13:49 <jamesn> BGaraventa: some browsers could weigh on the side of including everything
23:14:00 <jcraig> q+
23:14:13 <jamesn> q+ to ask if we think authors should be able to do this
23:14:39 <jamesn> ack jcraig
23:15:10 <scottono> q+
23:15:11 <jamesn> jcraig: +1 in support of jamesn language - there are opportunities for authors to get that interop to fix the issues
23:15:40 <jcraig> q-
23:15:43 <jamesn> jcraig: allowing the engines to account for it in a flexible way allows engines to account for something which are both performant and innvative
23:15:52 <jamesn> ack me
23:15:52 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to ask if we think authors should be able to do this
23:16:08 <Jamie> q+
23:16:55 <jcraig> q+ to say re: "allowed" MAY or SHOULD?
23:17:08 <jamesn> BGaraventa: in principle I agree but the person who suffers is the AT user
23:18:17 <jamesn> ack scottono
23:18:35 <jamesn> scottono: I agree that in principle this should not be allowed
23:18:55 <jamesn> scottono: but in HTML it is allowed and this is a real thing that is happening
23:19:00 <jamesn> q+
23:19:25 <jamesn> scottono: the rules for how name should be calculated are far more recent
23:19:36 <jamesn> qq+
23:20:37 <jamesn> ack me
23:20:37 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to react to scottono
23:20:54 <jamesn> jamesn: why can't we do that
23:22:33 <jcraig> q+
23:22:46 <jamesn> ack Jamie
23:23:13 <jcraig> q+ to address the innerText comment (speccing that would not allow a better sub-set of innerText)
23:23:23 <jamesn> Jamie: overriding of content only happens for cases links where they do allow name from content but name from author is also allowed
23:23:54 <jamesn> Jamie: a bunch of conversations - a bigger conflation - I don't think focusability matters much if we traverse into something
23:24:09 <jamesn> Jamie: when the root node allows name from content
23:24:41 <jamesn> jcraig: group doesn't allow Name from content - but when it is a child it will get traversed
23:25:05 <jamesn> Jamie: this focusability should get name from content but only when focusable
23:25:24 <jamesn> s/jcraig: group/Jamie: group/
23:25:53 <jamesn> Jamie: this would only apply for things that allow name from content
23:26:18 <jamesn> Jamie: for roles that allow name from content there is a list of things which allow traversal
23:26:25 <jcraig> ack me
23:26:25 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say re: "allowed" MAY or SHOULD? and to  and to address the innerText comment (speccing that would not allow a better sub-set of innerText)
23:26:35 <jamesn> q-
23:27:07 <jamesn> jcraig: perhaps should would be better
23:27:54 <jamesn> jcraig: BGaraventa sounded like you wanted to put InnerText in the spec - would be good to start with.... but wouldn't allow useragents to do a better job
23:28:22 <jamesn> jcraig: there could be better ways including using text size etc, to allow user agents to do a better job
23:28:28 <Jamie> q+
23:29:08 <jamesn> BGaraventa: the problem is when you omit info you are determining that someone may not need to know what X is - maybe the disclaimer is important and it is smaller
23:29:38 <jamesn> jcraig: agree would be a problem. with VO you can interact - if others are suppressing that then could be a problem
23:29:49 <jamesn> ack Jamie
23:30:17 <jamesn> Jamie: have no issue with UA using ML etc. to work something out - need to mark it such that it is a guess
23:30:21 <jcraig> q+
23:30:46 <jamesn> Jamie: think we had this conversation at TPAC and think V. important that the user knows it is a guess
23:30:53 <jamesn> +1 to Jamie
23:31:31 <scottono> +1
23:31:44 <jamesn> q?
23:32:03 <jamesn> ack jcraig
23:32:44 <jcraig> VO has precedent for speaking "possibly <text>" or "probably <text>"
23:33:07 <jamesn> BGaraventa: I like Jamie idea about traversing - but not specced out clearly
23:33:25 <jcraig> Jamie: fine with that, but the spec should make it clear that the guess should not be the same API property as the label
23:34:03 <jamesn> q+
23:36:57 <jamesn> q-
23:37:26 <jcraig> q+ to throw a <table> in <button> wrench
23:37:32 <jamesn> q+ aaronlev
23:38:08 <jcraig> ack me
23:38:08 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to throw a <table> in <button> wrench
23:38:14 <aaronlev_> q+
23:38:30 <scottono> q+
23:39:01 <jamesn> jcraig: link is less concerning.... button leaf nodes would be suppressed. We could make this an author error - unless content is exposed in other ways
23:39:10 <jamesn> q- aaronlev
23:39:27 <jamesn> ack aaronlev_
23:39:53 <jamesn> aaronlev_: good simple example is Emphasis.... we have a list of the roles in chrome
23:39:56 <scottono> q-
23:40:19 <jamesn> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iLk-KTX2PZvqIhdhQzM9vfMI3za3RlWQCRNx1e6m2VM/edit#gid=1453515990
23:44:40 <jamesn> q+
23:46:20 <jcraig> ack j
23:56:29 <jamesn> Jamie: to try to write up a proposal
23:56:37 <jamesn> present+
23:56:46 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA Deep Dive - Name traversal
00:01:13 <jamesn> zakim, end meeting
00:01:13 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Adam_Page, scottono, jamesn
00:01:14 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
00:01:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/03-aria-dive-minutes.html Zakim
00:01:18 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jamesn; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
00:01:22 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-dive
00:01:28 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #aria-dive
00:01:42 <Jamie> Hahaha, didn't mean to sign out so abruptly; hit the wrong button
04:39:51 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #aria-dive