17:00:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:54 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/10/27-aria-irc
17:00:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:00:57 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:01:11 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
17:01:36 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:01:36 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:01:36 <Adam_Page> present+
17:01:36 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20221027T130000
17:01:36 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:01:36 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3DwuAeJ
17:01:37 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3zCumAv
17:01:39 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:01:42 <agendabot> agenda+  -> AccName Role Traversal Proposal https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821
17:01:49 <agendabot> agenda+  -> [normative][author] clarify widget in trees can only be group and treeitem https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1793
17:01:50 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69
17:01:53 <agendabot> agenda+  -> No mention of aria-placeholder in name/description calculation algorithm https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/17
17:01:56 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Consider the future of aria-flowto https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/630
17:01:59 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+
17:02:15 <dmontalvo> dmontalvo has joined #aria
17:03:13 <spectranaut> present+
17:03:49 <jamesn> present+
17:03:59 <spectranaut> chair: spectranaut
17:04:08 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:04:48 <pkra> scribe: pkra
17:05:09 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:05:09 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3DwuAeJ -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:05:22 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:05:47 <chlane> chlane has joined #aria
17:05:55 <pkra> spectranaut: two issues on ariaMixin from whatwg.
17:06:17 <pkra> jnurthen: jcraig has been coordinating.
17:06:40 <pkra> ... but I think Anne will move it forward.
17:07:14 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #aria
17:07:55 <pkra> spectranaut: which milestone?
17:08:04 <pkra> jnurthen: let's add it to agenda next week.
17:08:24 <pkra> spectranaut: accname 175. custom elements to at
17:08:29 <pkra> ... same topic.
17:08:59 <pkra> ... aria 1840 extend rowheader / row
17:09:28 <pkra> adam: seems like a TH.
17:10:22 <pkra> jnurthen: can someone respond and ask for more info?
17:10:38 <pkra> chlane: I can ask for clarification.
17:11:06 <pkra> spectranaut: there is a proposal in the top card
17:11:19 <pkra> ... core-aam 151.
17:11:28 <pkra> ... assign to me.
17:11:43 <pkra> ... next: aria 1838
17:11:56 <pkra> user agent MUST statements for 1.2
17:12:32 <pkra> ... 1838 was easy to write a test for. but 1837 is different
17:12:44 <pkra> jnurthen: wasn't that in core-aam?
17:12:49 <pkra> ... 1.1
17:13:09 <pkra> point 4.3
17:13:15 <pkra> spectranaut:  yes!
17:13:23 <pkra> jnurthen: so this was just moved.
17:13:26 <pkra> spectranaut: perfect.
17:13:46 <pkra> jnurthen: the other section I think was also in core-aam
17:13:56 <pkra> spectranaut: but for the future, we should think about tests for this
17:13:59 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:13:59 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:13:59 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3zCumAv -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:14:03 <StefanS> present+
17:14:55 <pkra> spectranaut: aria 1839
17:15:26 <pkra> ... reviewers?
17:15:36 <pkra> scotto: I was looking into testing
17:15:58 <pkra> jnurthen: jcraig please. apple's input would be good.
17:16:08 <pkra> adam: I also did a bit of testing.
17:16:19 <pkra> ... took the example with wilco, with a few more permutations.
17:16:46 <pkra> ... I only looked at macos, chrome, VO. I'll add a link
17:16:57 <pkra> scotto: I'll share mine to compare notes.
17:17:07 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:17:07 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:33 <pkra> spectranaut: anything beyond accname discussion?
17:17:48 <jamesn> regrets+ CurtBellew
17:18:11 <pkra> bryan: I didn't see any other responses.
17:18:59 <pkra> spectranaut: Nov 3 or 10, 7pm Eastern.
17:19:06 <pkra> aaron: no preference.
17:19:25 <pkra> scotto: not today.
17:19:42 <pkra> jnurthen: bryan, tell me when it's ready and I'll book the meeting.
17:20:09 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:20:09 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> AccName Role Traversal Proposal https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:20:18 <pkra> zakim, close this item
17:20:18 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
17:20:19 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:20:19 <Zakim> 5. -> [normative][author] clarify widget in trees can only be group and treeitem https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1793 [from agendabot]
17:20:20 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:20:21 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> [normative][author] clarify widget in trees can only be group and treeitem https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1793 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:20:35 <Adam_Page> scribe+
17:20:54 <Adam_Page> pkra: need some guidance on what’s wanted here
17:21:16 <Adam_Page> ... secondary actions proposal seems to imply widgets could exist in tree item
17:21:30 <Adam_Page> ... so maybe we should wait until that concludes
17:22:05 <Adam_Page> jamesn: once secondary actions happens, we’ll need to update the text in many places, including this
17:24:06 <Adam_Page> pkra: original issue has to do with what can be contained in a treeitem
17:24:34 <Adam_Page> ... I’ll have another look
17:24:45 <Adam_Page> scribe-
17:24:48 <pkra> scrib: pkra
17:24:51 <pkra> scribe: pkra
17:24:59 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria
17:25:00 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:25:00 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:25:11 <pkra> spectranaut: where are we with this?
17:25:33 <pkra> scotto: I've merged the html-aam work.
17:25:59 <pkra> ... there's now just one section.
17:26:06 <pkra> ... this PR just need to link to that.
17:26:15 <pkra> ... unless we want to define all languages in core-aam.
17:27:14 <pkra> aaron: I'm happy with scotto adjusting the PR
17:27:16 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:27:16 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> No mention of aria-placeholder in name/description calculation algorithm https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/17 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:27:56 <pkra> bryan: this was never actually added to the spec.
17:28:02 <pkra> ... not sure where it would go.
17:28:13 <pkra> or should go.
17:28:33 <pkra> aaron: maybe we need a table where we check the accessible name.
17:28:45 <pkra> ... where the name comes from
17:29:12 <pkra> jnurthen: wouldn't html-aam be the place for this stuff? Sometimes points to accname, sometimes just HTML.
17:29:21 <pkra> scotto: we already have placeholder there.
17:29:31 <pkra> ... we could extend it.
17:29:42 <pkra> ... I didn't put it there because it feels odd.
17:29:50 <pkra> ... browsers implement is as a fallback.
17:30:09 <pkra> jnurthen: I don't think it should be in accname.
17:30:16 <pkra> chlane: it's not for the name.
17:30:28 <pkra> scottto: right, it's a suggestion for someone writing input
17:30:35 <pkra> ... it's giant footnote.
17:31:14 <pkra> siri: I agree, it's a significant problem.
17:31:26 <pkra> jnurthen: I just don't think it should be
17:31:37 <pkra> spectranaut: seems like agreement. should we just close the issue?
17:32:01 <pkra> jnurthen: we could put a note somewhere that aria-placeholder is not here because it should not be.
17:32:17 <pkra> bryan: but how does it fit into APIs?
17:32:54 <pkra> aaron: chrome exposes it if there's no other name. otherwise, we expose it through other means of the platform.
17:32:59 <jamesn> aria-placeholder
17:32:59 <jamesn> MSAA + IAccessible2	Object Attribute: placeholder-text:<value>
17:32:59 <jamesn> UIA	Property: HelpText: <value>
17:32:59 <jamesn> ATK/AT-SPI	Object Attribute: placeholder-text:<value>
17:32:59 <jamesn> AX API	Property: AXPlaceholderValue: <value>
17:33:02 <pkra> spectranaut: core-aam has a mapping.
17:33:22 <pkra> aaron: e.g., on windows/linux, we use object attribute placeholder (if there's a name).
17:33:35 <pkra> jnurthen: aria-placeholder oder placeholder?
17:33:38 <pkra> aaron: either.
17:33:56 <pkra> jnurthen: ok, maybe needs to be there then.
17:34:24 <pkra> ... do you use placeholder when you're traversing to a child or just at the top level?
17:34:38 <pkra> aaron: when we're coalescing stuff for the subtree, we'll use the placeholder if it became the accessible name.
17:34:48 <pkra> ... we'll also use the value of the input
17:35:46 <pkra> scotto: people often misuse placeholder for labeling.
17:35:59 <pkra> jnurthen: if there's value, nobody sees the placeholder.
17:36:20 <pkra> aaron: if user knows what it is, it doesn't seem too problematic
17:37:14 <pkra> chlane: relates to a PR I'm working on. value and name seem so often the same.
17:37:24 <pkra> spectranaut: what to do next?
17:37:36 <pkra> scotto: mention it in step of html-aam.
17:38:04 <pkra> jnurthen: instead of aria-placeholder, could you point to placeholder attribute mapping in html-aam?
17:38:16 <pkra> scotto: that's what I've done. Could add "see placeholder"
17:38:28 <pkra> jnurthen: I just don't want to encourage it.
17:38:49 <pkra> scotto: could add a note to the opposite effect.
17:38:56 <pkra> bryan: so should it be in accname?
17:39:06 <pkra> spectranaut: needs to be in core-aam
17:39:22 <pkra> jnurthen: but aaron said they go down the tree, so it would need to be in accname.
17:39:27 <pkra> bryan: right.
17:39:53 <pkra> jnurthen: we're not very good at calling out the different things.
17:40:00 <pkra> bryan: "in the absence of everything"
17:40:04 <pkra> jnurthen: "in this order"
17:40:11 <pkra> aaron: that's how I'd prefer the document.
17:40:22 <pkra> ... instead of prose, have more a table of precedence for the markup on a give note.
17:40:33 <pkra> .. I know it mixes HTML and ARIA but it would be the most useful.
17:40:58 <pkra> jnurthen: could map back to the different parts of HTML-aam. Half-serious here.
17:41:09 <pkra> scotto: there's definitely a lot I still want to do.
17:41:15 <pkra> jnurthen: but we don't link back from accname.
17:41:31 <pkra> ... risk of getting into a loop.
17:42:48 <pkra> spectranaut: scotto to continue.
17:42:57 <pkra> spectranaut: can we land this before description changes?
17:43:10 <pkra> jnurthen: I don't think we should.
17:43:27 <pkra> scotto: I'll write some notes on the issue
17:43:29 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:43:29 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- -> Consider the future of aria-flowto https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/630 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:44:07 <pkra> spectranaut: context: another issue was opened and we had asked to focus on this one.
17:44:56 <pkra> jnurthen: flowto not working / not being useful has frustrated me, have run into good use cases.
17:45:00 <pkra> ... I would love to fix it.
17:45:04 <jcraig> q+
17:45:23 <pkra> ... but it's unclear how much appetite there is for this.
17:46:02 <pkra> aaron: getting AT to support aria-details. browsers was easy. AT, even when paying for it, takes forever. it's just very difficult for them.
17:46:09 <sarah_higley> q+
17:46:15 <pkra> ... so supporting more use cases might be a better idea.
17:46:25 <spectranaut> ack jcraig
17:46:46 <pkra> jcraig: I filed this in 2017 because even though we had some implementations, it was underspecified.
17:46:57 <pkra> ... basically, only linear keyboard, only forward.
17:47:05 <pkra> ... but we can have loops.
17:47:11 <pkra> ... go backwards etc.
17:47:19 <pkra> ... many to many relationship is not covered.
17:47:40 <pkra> ... I'd be happy to revisit some APIs related to this concept.
17:48:00 <pkra> ... I'd like the ability "this can flow to this other thing (incl. focus) and these are the relationship"
17:48:10 <pkra> ... controls or owns relationsship could be examples.
17:48:19 <scotto> q+
17:48:27 <pkra> ... when user hits hotkey, we can display these relationships.
17:48:38 <pkra> ... flowto was just too naive, a single idref pointer.
17:48:52 <pkra> ... devs weren't using it. implementations not thought out.
17:49:07 <pkra> ... but we got busy and brennan raised it earlier this year.
17:49:23 <pkra> ... after 1.5 years of little to no movement.
17:49:38 <pkra> cyns: I remember there were use cases back then. ANyone know where to find them?
17:49:44 <pkra> aaron: they were a bit handwavy.
17:49:57 <pkra> ... I think original was java accessibility API, fed into ATK.
17:50:04 <pkra> ... so we copied everything into aria.
17:50:24 <pkra> jnurthen: diagrams, flowcharts, data visualzations are many
17:50:33 <pkra> cyns: I think maybe power point wanted it
17:50:42 <pkra> aaron: organizational chart could work with aria-details.
17:50:54 <pkra> ... that would be something AT are actually working on.
17:51:05 <spectranaut> ack sarah_higley
17:51:12 <jcraig> q+ to mention SVG connectors
17:51:42 <pkra> sarah: I wonder if pop-up work, grid/flex order, maybe they are addressing the original use case
17:52:01 <pkra> ... for flowcharts in my experience are not helped by flowto
17:52:05 <aaronlev> aria-details does support one to many, and ATs are working on better support already!
17:52:10 <pkra> ... too broad / general for this use case.
17:52:11 <aaronlev> :) :) :)
17:52:30 <pkra> ... ordering and popup might address the more general use case
17:52:40 <pkra> jnurthen: flowto allows multiple idrefs
17:52:44 <pkra> sarah: but how would that work?
17:52:52 <pkra> jnurthen: wasn't saying it does.
17:53:28 <spectranaut> q?
17:53:36 <pkra> ... but you'd probably implement it naively. But piggybacking on details implementations might be a starting point.
17:53:56 <pkra> cyns: graphics have very different structure. not saying flowto is helpful either.
17:53:57 <spectranaut> ack scotto
17:54:38 <pkra> scotto: use case flow charts, branching into multiple ones. right now we have to implement description text. and hoping you're using  a keyboard.
17:55:21 <jcraig> q+ to say Would rather drop flowto baggage and instead explore how to make something SVG Connectors accessible. http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml
17:55:23 <pkra> ... I'm in support of deprecating the feature. The support isn't there. aria-details is not yet fully implemented. So the counterpoints are not on point.
17:55:39 <jcraig> ack me
17:55:39 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention SVG connectors and to say Would rather drop flowto baggage and instead explore how to make something SVG Connectors accessible.
17:55:42 <Zakim> ... http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml
17:55:53 <pkra> ... if there are still use cases left, something new might have a much better chance.
17:56:23 <jcraig> q+ to mention SVG connectors and to say Would rather drop flowto baggage and instead explore how to make something SVG Connectors accessible.http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml
17:56:33 <pkra> aaron: we could expose flowto as details. we have a hint "details from" on some platforms. we could say "details from flowto". then existing AT could piggypack on that
17:56:40 <jamesn> q+ to reply to cookiecrook
17:56:43 <pkra> ... they could change their wording to users.
17:56:56 <pkra> jcraig: still a 1-1 unidirectional relationship
17:57:07 <pkra> aaron: flowto supports many, details too.
17:57:11 <jcraig> ack me
17:57:11 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention SVG connectors and to say Would rather drop flowto baggage and instead explore how to make something SVG Connectors
17:57:13 <Zakim> ... accessible.http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml
17:57:26 <pkra> jcraig: nothing in there "details for reason X"
17:57:50 <pkra> aaron: we have an object attribute on ia2, atk to indicate that. could be done on mac
17:58:01 <pkra> jcraig: but can the author influence?
17:58:10 <pkra> aaron: e.g., via role
17:58:19 <pkra> jcraig: I wanted to mention svg connectors.
17:58:29 <pkra> ... many-to-many relationships
17:58:52 <pkra> ... making something like that accessible.
17:59:05 <pkra> ... not just that they're connected but text alternatives for the relationship itself
17:59:09 <pkra> ... e.g., transitions.
17:59:17 <BGaraventa> BGaraventa has joined #aria
17:59:19 <pkra> ... that would work in a much broader sense than flowto.
17:59:25 <pkra> ... outside of flowcharts.
17:59:31 <BGaraventa> present+ bgaraventa
17:59:40 <pkra> ... easy idea to understand, make that accessible.
17:59:44 <pkra> ... could benefit widely.
17:59:59 <jamesn> q-
17:59:59 <pkra> jnurthen: that sound interesting
18:00:05 <pkra> jcraig: there's more than flowto and details here.
18:00:32 <pkra> aaron: details takes the approach: in the forward direction, backwards automatic by the browser.
18:00:55 <pkra> jcraig: multi-to-multi, how does the user choose the reverse direction?
18:01:03 <pkra> ... maybe shift modifier. but then which one?
18:01:11 <pkra> spectranaut: we're at the hour.
18:01:26 <pkra> ... can we have a comment on the issue?
18:01:32 <BGaraventa> here is an example of flowto https://whatsock.com/Templates/Footnotes/Internal/index.htm
18:01:36 <pkra> pkra: deep dive?
18:01:59 <pkra> bryan: pasted link to example for footnotes with flowto.
18:02:04 <pkra> ... works with jaws.
18:02:17 <pkra> ... just an example of what works.
18:02:27 <pkra> jcraig: deep dive should include stakeholders.
18:02:46 <pkra> RRS agent, make minutes
18:02:48 <jcraig> s/how does the user choose the reverse direction?/how would the user know which reverse relationship to choose when there are multiple? The relationship itself is unlabeled and ambiguous./
18:02:50 <pkra> RRSagent, make minutes
18:02:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/27-aria-minutes.html pkra
18:04:13 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #aria
18:04:41 <jcraig> s/maybe shift modifier. but then which one?/using a pattern like shift+tab, the AT could present the multiple reverse relationship (incoming to the current element) but there is no author-provided label on the relationship to clarify that connection./
18:05:38 <jcraig> s/I wanted to mention svg connectors./I wanted to mention SVG connectors. I don't know the implementation status but it has/
18:07:37 <jcraig> s/making something like that accessible./If we took a pattern like flowcharts that are easy to understand and made that accessible, we may be able to re-use that pattern for other non-flow-chart use cases: For example, all the use cases of flowto, details, etc./
18:09:47 <jcraig> s/deep dive should include stakeholders./If we have a deep dive on the topic, it should include stakeholders on the GitHub issue, like @BrennanYoung and @WeedySeaDragon/
18:10:02 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:10:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/27-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:17:41 <chlane> quit