IRC log of wot-td on 2022-10-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:39:38 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #wot-td

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-td-irc

13:57:31 [kaz]

meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF

13:57:38 [kaz]

present+ Kaz_Ashimura

13:58:14 [kaz]

agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#October_26.2C_2022

14:00:29 [kaz]

rrsagent, make log public

14:00:33 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:00:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:01:21 [kaz]

chair: Sebastian/Ege

14:02:43 [kaz]

present+ Ege_Korkan, Jan_Romann

14:03:19 [kaz]

present+ Klaus_Hartke

14:05:48 [kaz]

present+ Michael_Koster

14:05:53 [dape]

dape has joined #wot-td

14:05:58 [kaz]

present+ Daniel_Peintner

14:06:19 [kaz]

present+ Erich_Barnstedt

14:07:32 [kaz]

topic: Scribe

14:08:26 [erichb]

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14:08:45 [kaz]

scribenick; erichb

14:09:13 [sebastian_]

sebastian_ has joined #wot-td

14:09:14 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2022/Talks/0322-tools-ka/ Kaz's slides on IRC, FYI

14:09:26 [kaz]

scribenick: Sebastian_Kaebisch

14:09:52 [kaz]

topic: Minutes

14:10:11 [kaz]

q+

14:10:24 [kaz]

q-

14:10:31 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2022/10/19-wot-td-minutes.html Oct-19

14:10:56 [kaz]

ege: (goes through the minutes)

14:11:25 [kaz]

present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima

14:11:32 [kaz]

present+ Michael_McCool

14:11:38 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:11:38 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:12:00 [McCool_]

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14:12:34 [kaz]

present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch

14:12:44 [kaz]

i/(goes through/scribenick: kaz/

14:13:03 [kaz]

approved

14:13:23 [kaz]

topic: Binding

14:14:05 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:14:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:14:09 [kaz]

q+

14:14:30 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 192

14:15:39 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/192 PR 192 - Aligning protocol binding template usage

14:15:54 [erichb]

Minutes were accepted

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14:16:42 [kaz]

q+

14:16:52 [kaz]

s/Minutes were accepted//

14:17:15 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:17:15 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:18:26 [mjk]

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14:18:39 [cris__]

q+

14:19:22 [Ege]

ack k

14:24:08 [erichb]

Discussion on binding template description ongoing

14:27:30 [erichb]

Wording confusion regarding binding vs. binding template.

14:28:18 [sebastian_]

q+

14:30:03 [kaz]

q+

14:30:57 [erichb]

<seb> suggests to add a better description

14:32:20 [erichb]

<kaz> suggests to have a separate meeting about it.

14:34:21 [kaz]

s/<seb>/seb:/

14:34:27 [kaz]

s/<kaz>/kaz:/

14:34:34 [kaz]

ack k

14:34:37 [kaz]

ack s

14:37:06 [sebastian_]

brb

14:39:32 [sebastian_]

back

14:39:34 [mjk]

q?

14:39:39 [kaz]

s/suggests to have a separate meeting about it./would suggest we ask external WoT developers as well about their opinions if the current structure and description of the WoT Binding Templates Note is comprehensive enough. Maybe part of the discussion by the WoT CG and the WoT-JP CG./

14:39:40 [Ege]

ack c

14:40:09 [sebastian_]

q+

14:42:00 [kaz]

q+

14:42:06 [kaz]

ack s

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14:42:28 [kaz]

ack k

14:43:13 [cris__]

cris: Protocol Binding Templates are a way to describe protocols features in forms, they are not normative in how you use those terms. This is my understanding of the definition given by the group.

14:44:23 [cris__]

... Profiles, among other goals, wants to further specialize the rules defined in Protocol Binding Templates with stricter mapping between wot operations and protocol keywords.

14:45:22 [mjk]

q+

14:45:30 [kaz]

i/kaz:/kaz: This PR 192 includes too many changes at once. It would be better to have a smaller PRs, one for the main Binding Templates document, and the others for the sub documents./

14:45:36 [kaz]

q?

14:45:40 [kaz]

ack mjk

14:46:15 [kaz]

s/wot ope/WoT ope/

14:46:56 [mjk]

ack mjk

14:49:13 [kaz]

q+

14:49:33 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:49:33 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:50:08 [kaz]

i/Discussion on binding/scribenick: erichb/

14:50:22 [kaz]

i/This PR 192 includes/scribenick: kaz/

14:50:34 [kaz]

i/would suggest we ask/scribenick: kaz/

14:50:56 [kaz]

s/would suggest we ask/also would suggest/

14:51:25 [kaz]

i/Protocol Binding Templates are a/scribenick: cris__/

14:51:31 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:51:31 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:52:11 [kaz]

i/would suggest ex/scribenick: erichb/

14:52:13 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:52:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:52:23 [kaz]

q?

14:53:40 [kaz]

ack k

14:54:20 [kaz]

s/brb//

14:54:22 [kaz]

s/back//

14:54:26 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:54:26 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

14:57:50 [mjk]

Agree with the idea that there needs to be a general binding template that includes the whole possible vocabulary, and either concrete templates that narrow this down to fixed choices or profiles that do the same. Additionally, more sophisticated clients can interpret options in the form, but we may not want all clients to have this capability.

14:58:05 [kaz]

s/Agree with/mjk: Agree with/

14:58:09 [kaz]

i/Agree/scribenick: mjk/

14:58:38 [mjk]

s/want all/want to require all

14:59:03 [kaz]

scribenick: kaz

14:59:29 [kaz]

(Klaus and Erich left)

14:59:51 [sebastian_]

q+

14:59:52 [kaz]

ek: any objections about the definition within this PR 192?

14:59:57 [kaz]

ack s

15:00:23 [kaz]

sk: This clarifies the role of Binding Templates

15:00:34 [kaz]

... but would be better to split the PR into smaller PRs

15:00:49 [kaz]

... also as Kaz mentioned, getting feedback from the outside would be useful

15:01:24 [kaz]

... our purpose is providing a nice guideline for developers

15:01:27 [kaz]

ek: ok

15:01:42 [kaz]

... will do so in the future PRs

15:02:18 [kaz]

... will ask Klaus as opinion as well later

15:03:14 [kaz]

merged

15:03:26 [kaz]

subtopic: Issue 143

15:03:48 [kaz]

s/subtopic: Issue 143//

15:04:29 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/143 comment added to Issue 143 - "Protocol Binding" vs. "Binding Template"

15:04:51 [Ege]

q?

15:05:06 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 182

15:05:15 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/182 PR 182 - Ontology links

15:05:43 [kaz]

ek: would remove the ontology link

15:06:06 [kaz]

s/ontology/CoAP ontology/

15:07:07 [kaz]

... also resolve the merge conflicts

15:07:22 [kaz]

(will be merged after the above modifications)

15:07:55 [kaz]

q+

15:10:03 [Ege]

https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/159

15:10:20 [kaz]

i|Issue 159|subtopic: Issue 159|

15:10:25 [kaz]

s/https/-> https/

15:10:48 [kaz]

s/159/159 Issue 159 - CoAP Content-Format vs. contentType/contentCoding

15:11:19 [kaz]

ek: related to the TD PR 1564

15:11:35 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1564 wot-thing-description PR 1564 - explain contentType usage

15:12:25 [kaz]

-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1564.html#sec-response-usage 5.3.4.2.2 Response-related Terms Usage

15:12:44 [kaz]

ek: (skims the table on "Single contentType")

15:13:05 [kaz]

... would like to follow the approach here

15:13:33 [cris__]

q+

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15:14:17 [kaz]

ack k

15:14:34 [kaz]

kaz: we should think about how to refer to this information from the Binding Templates side

15:14:36 [kaz]

ek: agree

15:14:43 [kaz]

ca: this PR looks fine

15:15:07 [kaz]

... but we should refer to this information from the Binding Templates

15:15:30 [kaz]

ack k

15:15:32 [kaz]

ack c

15:15:47 [kaz]

q+

15:16:33 [kaz]

kaz: btw, this change would not impact implementations. Right?

15:16:57 [cris__]

ack c

15:17:00 [cris__]

q+

15:17:32 [kaz]

ek: there is no normative assertions here

15:18:37 [sebastian_]

q+

15:18:39 [kaz]

ek: right

15:19:05 [kaz]

kaz: from my viewpoint, this PR is very big and adds two big tables with one leading paragraph

15:19:34 [kaz]

... so probably we need a bit more detailed review to see if there is no assertion to be extracted here

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15:19:42 [kaz]

ack k

15:19:44 [cris__]

ack c

15:19:44 [kaz]

ack c

15:19:45 [kaz]

ack s

15:19:50 [kaz]

sk: agree with Kaz

15:19:57 [kaz]

... should not add this big change now

15:20:16 [kaz]

... to avoid potential confusions

15:20:38 [kaz]

... that said, would suggest we add this kind of clarification itself

15:21:07 [kaz]

... so let's revisit this later to add further improvement to the WoT Thing Description specification

15:21:39 [kaz]

... anyway, we should not merge this PR now

15:22:10 [kaz]

ek: ok

15:22:22 [kaz]

topic: Thing Description

15:22:30 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:22:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

15:22:56 [kaz]

sk: the big news is that we made a resolution for CR transition during the main call

15:23:39 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-minutes.html#r01 Resolution for CR Transition for TD

15:24:13 [kaz]

i/big news/subtopic: CR Transition/

15:24:22 [kaz]

subtopic: Features at-risk

15:24:42 [kaz]

sk: (shows the SoTD section)

15:25:31 [kaz]

-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#sotd SoTD of the latest TD draft

15:25:39 [kaz]

[[

15:25:49 [kaz]

Indicating location of security information in body of payload using JSON pointers. sec-body-name-json-pointer, sec-body-name-json-pointer-array, sec-body-name-json-pointer-creatable, and sec-body-name-json-pointer-type.

15:25:49 [kaz]

Indicating location of security information using URI template. td-security-in-query-over-uri and td-security-in-uri-variable. td-security-uri-variables-distinct.

15:25:49 [kaz]

Multilanguage content negotiation. td-ns-multilanguage-content-negotiation and td-ns-multilanguage-content-negotiation-no-multi.

15:25:50 [kaz]

TD Processor bidi isolation. td-processor-bidi-isolation.

15:25:51 [kaz]

TD Producer mixed direction scripts. td-producer-mixed-direction.

15:25:53 [kaz]

Text direction inferencing. td-text-direction-first-strong and td-text-direction-language-tag.

15:25:55 [kaz]

Support for OAuth2 client flow. td-security-oauth2-client-flow and td-security-oauth2-client-flow-no-auth.

15:25:57 [kaz]

Support for OAuth2 device flow. td-security-oauth2-device-flow.

15:25:59 [kaz]

Support for queryallactions operation. td-vocab-op--Form_queryallactions.

15:26:01 [kaz]

]]

15:26:05 [kaz]

sk: features at-risk above

15:26:13 [kaz]

... and most likely we would have another Testfest in December

15:26:25 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 1730

15:27:12 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1730 PR 1730 - Update Implementation Report and Prep for CR

15:27:29 [kaz]

mm: (explains the PR)

15:27:45 [kaz]

... fixed the bugs in the Implementation Report

15:28:17 [kaz]

... we still need to update the testimonials

15:28:42 [kaz]

... also be careful about the categorization by code bases

15:29:18 [sebastian_]

q?

15:29:32 [kaz]

(merged)

15:30:07 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 1733

15:30:32 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1733 PR 1733 - Overview - all TD implementations

15:31:53 [kaz]

sk: need to continue to work on this

15:31:59 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 1732

15:32:19 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1732 PR 1732 - Minor follow-up syntax alignments/fixes

15:32:35 [kaz]

sk: would suggest we merge this

15:32:52 [kaz]

... but will keep this now

15:32:55 [kaz]

subtopic: 1712

15:33:18 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1712 PR 1712 - Add table numbers and captions using new respec option

15:33:26 [kaz]

ek: need to dig into the script a bit more

15:33:47 [kaz]

sk: (adds a label of "by PR")

15:34:07 [kaz]

s/subtopic: 17/subtopic: PR 17/

15:34:13 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 1684

15:34:33 [kaz]

->https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1684 PR 1684 - Fix shacl, context and ontology

15:34:51 [kaz]

ca: have not got much feedback yet

15:35:10 [kaz]

... why don't we revisit this next time?

15:35:18 [kaz]

sk: next week?

15:35:46 [kaz]

... would talk about PR 1564 as well

15:36:08 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1564 PR 1564 - explain contentType usage

15:36:58 [kaz]

subtopic: PRs with "Defer to TD 2.0" label

15:37:10 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Defer+to+TD+2.0%22 PRs with "Defer to TD 2.0" label

15:37:17 [kaz]

sk: (quickly skim the list)

15:37:59 [kaz]

subtopic: Issues to be closed

15:38:11 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Defer+to+TD+2.0%22 Issues with "Propose closing" label

15:38:15 [kaz]

q+

15:38:19 [Ege]

q+

15:38:43 [kaz]

ack k

15:39:22 [kaz]

kaz: what about the issue on the dependency between TD and Binding?

15:39:32 [kaz]

sk: wanted to keep it open due to your comments

15:39:53 [kaz]

kaz: you can close the original issue and generate another editorial issue based on my comments

15:39:57 [kaz]

sk: ok

15:40:47 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1722 Issue 1722 - Normative assertion points to informative binding template note which is WIP

15:41:54 [kaz]

sk: (copies Kaz's comments within Issue 1722 to another new issue, and closes the original Issue 1722)

15:42:24 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1735 Issue 1735 - Minor editorial changes for PR

15:42:38 [kaz]

sk: what about the other remaining Issues?

15:43:37 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1702 Issue 1702 - Section 8.2: Contradicting and unprecise normative behavioral assertions

15:44:03 [kaz]

ek: design to be strict for the Consumers

15:44:19 [kaz]

... the Consumers should follow the WoT Thing Description specification

15:44:34 [kaz]

mm: that means we're overlooking something

15:44:59 [kaz]

... a Consumer is not necessarily a Thing

15:45:20 [kaz]

... I'm fine with the current situation

15:46:15 [kaz]

(closed)

15:46:22 [kaz]

q+

15:46:34 [kaz]

ack e

15:46:37 [kaz]

ack k

15:47:14 [kaz]

kaz: just to make sure, Sebastian, you should check with Lagally

15:47:21 [kaz]

mm: right

15:47:40 [kaz]

... you should mention @mlagally there so that he can reopen the issue if needed

15:47:46 [kaz]

sk: (mentions @mlagally)

15:47:51 [jkrhb__]

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15:48:21 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1674 Issue 1674 - Mention that protocol bindings can also be defined in profiles

15:48:45 [kaz]

q+

15:49:43 [kaz]

ack k

15:50:48 [kaz]

kaz: maybe we can close this Issue itself, but this implies there are some descriptions on "Protocol Bindings" withing (1) WoT Architecture 1.1, (2) WoT Thing Description 1.1 and (3) WoT Binding Templates

15:51:07 [kaz]

... we should see the relationship among those descriptions to make sure

15:51:16 [kaz]

sk: yes, so let's keep this open

15:51:43 [kaz]

... and revisit it again during the Architecture call tomorrow on Oct 27

15:52:19 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1617 Issue 1617 - [OracleReview] 6.3.4 securityDefinitions and security

15:52:43 [kaz]

sk: there is no normative assertions now

15:52:53 [kaz]

s/there is/there are/

15:52:57 [kaz]

(closed)

15:53:29 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1613 Issue 1613 - [OracleReview] 5.3.3.1 SecurityScheme

15:55:14 [kaz]

mm: There were two assertions

15:55:26 [kaz]

s/assertions/assertions there/

15:56:33 [kaz]

(closed)

15:57:06 [kaz]

q?

15:57:24 [kaz]

kaz: to make sure, who raised this issue?

15:57:51 [kaz]

ek: Lagally raised a big issue including this

15:58:47 [kaz]

kaz: in that case, we should ask Lagally about if it's OK to make sure

15:59:33 [kaz]

s/sure/sure, though I'm OK with closing those Issues with "[OracleReview]" title./

16:00:04 [kaz]

sk: (mentions @mlagally within the Issue so that Lagally can reopen it if needed)

16:02:13 [kaz]

subtopic: Next steps for CR transition

16:02:24 [kaz]

sk: how to proceed with CR transition?

16:02:44 [kaz]

kaz: as you did for TD 1.0, you need to submit an Issue for the transition repo

16:02:51 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/Guide/transitions?profile=CR&cr=new Transition guideline

16:03:30 [McCool]

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16:06:35 [kaz]

kaz: make sure it would be better to provide the URL of the static HTMl version

16:06:39 [kaz]

[adjourned]

16:06:43 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:06:43 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

16:09:03 [kaz]

i|make sure|-> https://github.com/w3c/transitions transitions repo|

16:13:18 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:13:18 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/26-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

18:23:37 [Zakim]

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