in ARIA right now, but I have an issue open to make better guesses based on the previous heading 18:24:08 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: putting a specific title on it is probably a good idea 18:24:36 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: Alex, where do you think this should go? I've seen something like this in WCAG's guidelines. makes me think there's something in the WAI templates 18:25:11 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: could be a problem in the templates, since the heading and note get separated 18:25:33 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: as if the section where the note actually is, doesn't have a heading 18:26:00 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: i noticed it in the Understanding section of WCAG guidelines 18:26:22 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: should this be in our CSS? WAI's? or we lean on the WAI templates? do we want to add support for <title>? 18:26:54 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: If there's a different way you want to do notes, go for it. I'm happy with anything the group likes. The WCAG Understanding stuff is generated by respec 18:27:22 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: I could be wrong though (about respec generating those). WCAG itself IS respec 18:28:00 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: one benefit to doing it how respec does it is that editors for multiple things don't have to relearn as much 18:28:50 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: if we're not using loopback, it might be hard for someone to understand the importance of the <title> attr. sticking to HTML markup for all notes would be my recommendation, no need for JS transformation 18:29:15 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: About the template, we use its styling and there's some we cant ge working exactly correctly just yet 18:29:34 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: so is there transformation on notes in the patterns right now? 18:29:55 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: Yes but it won't be there on the new branch 18:30:12 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: should we replace all "Note" classes with something else? Or? 18:30:44 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: I would advocate for that but am open to other ideas 18:31:09 <MarkMcCarthy> jongund_: is this discussion better suited for the editor's meeting? 18:31:24 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: anyone can use this guidance if they're writing content, but that's a good question 18:32:02 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: Alex, we should look at how complicated it'd be to continue using that class 18:33:14 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: i'll make a note (heh) to myself to find the correct issue to solve this in 18:33:32 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: Alex, I might ask for your guidance or rough guess on where and how much would be needed 18:33:39 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: Sounds good 18:34:05 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: Decisions: we're waiting on 2512, and I'm merging Jon's PR 18:34:16 <MarkMcCarthy> TOPIC: QA plan for updated Netlify APG site 18:34:54 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: we're changing every pattern and practices page, so I want a QA plan where we have at least 2 people spending a few minutes looking at every page on the site 18:35:27 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: dividing this up, I'd think it'll take 4 people an hour each to check every page 18:36:03 <jongund_> I can help 18:36:08 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: this is just a spot check. we have a bot to check links, and content is the same. Changes are things like moving chunks around. 18:36:21 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: main thing is to make sure we haven't regressed the appearance or broken anything 18:36:39 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: i.e. compare production to preview and make sure things are the same 18:37:17 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: we don't have the preview yet, but i am looking for reviewers on 2417 KNOWING that this should be a bigger(ish) one that'll take about an hour 18:37:46 <MarkMcCarthy> HelenZhou: I'll volunteer too 18:38:22 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: Alex, do you have an estimate for when the preview link will be ready? 18:39:04 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: I still need to stabilize that branch, and that should be close by end of the week. THEN we can start on the WAI ARIA-practices repo work. no estimate yet 18:39:18 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: so maybe not next week, the following week? 18:39:24 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: Could be a good target 18:39:58 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: I'd love to get the review done in a week, once it's ready 18:40:34 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: I'll ask again next week 18:40:45 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: Alex, any blockers on stabilizing the branch? 18:40:54 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: No, but getting through two PRs including the link checker 18:41:10 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: I could use feedback on #2481 18:41:12 <Github1> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2481 : Add new file structure support to create-gh-project.js script (Issue 2418 task 7) 18:41:42 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: got it 18:42:28 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: I'll raise the issue about the classes (sorry to make more work for stabilization). Any other issues we need to discuss about stabilization? 18:42:51 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:42:51 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: We discussed generating patterns/practices files. Not currently urgent or anything, but on my mind as a future requirement 18:43:01 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: we could punt that til after we land this immediate work 18:43:48 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: I don't think we're directly linking to those anywhere besides navigation, so it's not as urgent right? 18:43:53 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: That's true 18:44:06 <MarkMcCarthy> TOPIC: New Issues 18:44:16 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: there are four in our agenda today 18:44:35 <MarkMcCarthy> TOPIC: Pattern for browsable 'locked' or 'answered' quiz/test/exam question? #2508 18:44:36 <Github1> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2508 : Pattern for browsable 'locked' or 'answered' quiz/test/exam question? 18:44:44 <MarkMcCarthy> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2508 18:47:20 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: we got responses from Brennan. 18:47:28 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy: [reading Brennan's response] 18:48:31 <MarkMcCarthy> jongund_: sometimes, if "you answered X" type of statement goes after a question, an AT user has to get to that AFTER getting through disabled controls, so putting it before the quesdtion could help 18:48:50 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: adding that (before the question) AND -readonly would be perfect 18:49:16 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: ultimately, I think that's good feedback. 18:49:31 <MarkMcCarthy> jongund_: should be it be signified in a landmark or heading? other than plain text, anyway? 18:50:20 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: semantically, if the questions and answers are list items or paragraphs, or otherwise are supported by a heading structure, I wouldn't recommend it 18:50:59 <MarkMcCarthy> jongund_: what about a region with an accname of "Question Result" or something similar? 18:51:24 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: if there's one question per page, and already a few regions, sure. if there's 40 on a page, and it's imperative to get to the nav region, that could clog things up 18:52:31 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: I'm not sure what could be widely reusable for a pattern here. For inclusive tests/quizzes, absolutely. broadly speaking, though, i'm not sure. 18:52:57 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: there's definitely a use case, but every test designer may choose soemthing different 18:53:15 <MarkMcCarthy> jongund_: a dialog box could also be a good way to express feedback/answers to questions 18:53:21 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: that works well for us here at Meta 18:54:39 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: this is a perfect case for readonly. it's readable by everyone, and not disabled. 18:54:50 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: why? 18:55:25 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: the disabled attribute makes it unreadable (visually) - they don't pass contrast. it effectively says "this isn't relevant" 18:56:04 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: the fact that HTML doesn't support readonly... it's technicalities, and IMO should be updated 18:56:27 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: i've worked on several apps where disabled and readonly both should and can be used, and they mean different things 18:57:05 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: we allow aria-disabled and aria-readonly on many different things, though it may or may not be supported by all user agents 18:57:48 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: So, our feedback is that aria-disabled is the most interoperable solution, moreso than HTML disabled. 18:58:17 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: Yes, but then you have to make it non-operable in different ways (could even be a good use of a <div> vs. <input>) 18:58:52 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: or use <disabled> and override the CSS to make it perceivable 18:58:59 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: just depends on how they want to build it 18:59:03 <MarkMcCarthy> TOPIC: Wrap-up 18:59:54 <MarkMcCarthy> zakim, who is here? 18:59:54 <Zakim> Present: Matt_King, MarkMcCarthy, jamesn 18:59:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see MarkMcCarthy, jongund_, RRSAgent, Zakim, Matt_King, MichaelC, github-bot, Mike5Matrix1, Github1, jamesn, ZoeBijl, trackbot 19:00:08 <MarkMcCarthy> present+ HelenZhou AlexF 19:00:32 <MarkMcCarthy> RRSAgent, make minutes 19:00:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/18-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy 19:02:21 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: We'll see you all next week! 19:02:24 <MarkMcCarthy> RRSAgent, make minutes 19:02:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/18-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy 19:18:21 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 19:21:27 <MichaelC_> MichaelC_ has joined #aria-apg 19:53:35 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 20:08:49 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 20:37:34 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 20:42:29 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 20:53:47 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 21:21:01 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 21:22:41 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg 21:33:09 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 21:46:21 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 21:49:48 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 21:53:10 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 22:12:03 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 22:31:04 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 22:35:48 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 22:41:36 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 22:42:36 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 23:34:45 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg

element 18:14:04 s/it used to/the selector used to 18:14:17 Matt_King: this CSS ONLY applies to the landmark example? 18:14:19 jamesn: yes 18:14:26 Matt_King: oh this shouldn't need any review then really 18:14:39 jongund: there was a stylesheet that was referenced twice, I removed the duplicate 18:16:10 MK: The other PR this week is ..., I was confused by the commits were from some months ago 18:16:19 MK: PR related to dialogs 18:16:33 MK: PR #2512 18:16:35 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2512 : Add note to landmarks section to allow dialogs to not be in landmark 18:17:12 PR 2512: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2512 18:17:18 JN: I accidentally added some content, so I had to remove it, so it is really only one commit 18:18:02 JN: The second commit is the one to pay attention too 18:18:25 MK: This is a content issue, and we agreed to make some changes, so I am thinking about timing 18:18:51 MK: We would get better tracking if we wait until the new content tree 18:19:00 MK: JN can you wait a few weeks? 18:19:05 JN: Sure 18:19:16 MK: Thanks, that will simplify things 18:20:04 go ahead mark 18:20:40 Matt_King: there's a warning class, a note class... role references, property references, that are unlinked. HTML-mapping... 18:21:10 Matt_King: the first two are motly used for styling, the others are ARIA specific. Alex, do you know what happens to the warning, note classes in production? 18:21:19 s/go ahead mark/ 18:21:31 Alex: Note styling is applied, but I'm not sure about warning 18:22:28 Matt_King: Note is definitely used in the patterns (like the keyboard section, properties/states section). in THIS PR, the note is titled, so I'm not sure what or why it is 18:22:39 jamesn: respec will translate the title into the heading for the note 18:23:07 Matt_King: it seems like respec gets the heading level wrong a lot 18:23:11 jamesn: it shouldn't, though 18:23:41 jamesn: we don't use in ARIA right now, but I have an issue open to make better guesses based on the previous heading 18:24:08 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: putting a specific title on it is probably a good idea 18:24:36 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: Alex, where do you think this should go? I've seen something like this in WCAG's guidelines. makes me think there's something in the WAI templates 18:25:11 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: could be a problem in the templates, since the heading and note get separated 18:25:33 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: as if the section where the note actually is, doesn't have a heading 18:26:00 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: i noticed it in the Understanding section of WCAG guidelines 18:26:22 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: should this be in our CSS? WAI's? or we lean on the WAI templates? do we want to add support for <title>? 18:26:54 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: If there's a different way you want to do notes, go for it. I'm happy with anything the group likes. The WCAG Understanding stuff is generated by respec 18:27:22 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: I could be wrong though (about respec generating those). WCAG itself IS respec 18:28:00 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: one benefit to doing it how respec does it is that editors for multiple things don't have to relearn as much 18:28:50 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: if we're not using loopback, it might be hard for someone to understand the importance of the <title> attr. sticking to HTML markup for all notes would be my recommendation, no need for JS transformation 18:29:15 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: About the template, we use its styling and there's some we cant ge working exactly correctly just yet 18:29:34 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: so is there transformation on notes in the patterns right now? 18:29:55 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: Yes but it won't be there on the new branch 18:30:12 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: should we replace all "Note" classes with something else? Or? 18:30:44 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: I would advocate for that but am open to other ideas 18:31:09 <MarkMcCarthy> jongund_: is this discussion better suited for the editor's meeting? 18:31:24 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: anyone can use this guidance if they're writing content, but that's a good question 18:32:02 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: Alex, we should look at how complicated it'd be to continue using that class 18:33:14 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: i'll make a note (heh) to myself to find the correct issue to solve this in 18:33:32 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: Alex, I might ask for your guidance or rough guess on where and how much would be needed 18:33:39 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: Sounds good 18:34:05 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: Decisions: we're waiting on 2512, and I'm merging Jon's PR 18:34:16 <MarkMcCarthy> TOPIC: QA plan for updated Netlify APG site 18:34:54 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: we're changing every pattern and practices page, so I want a QA plan where we have at least 2 people spending a few minutes looking at every page on the site 18:35:27 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: dividing this up, I'd think it'll take 4 people an hour each to check every page 18:36:03 <jongund_> I can help 18:36:08 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: this is just a spot check. we have a bot to check links, and content is the same. Changes are things like moving chunks around. 18:36:21 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: main thing is to make sure we haven't regressed the appearance or broken anything 18:36:39 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: i.e. compare production to preview and make sure things are the same 18:37:17 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: we don't have the preview yet, but i am looking for reviewers on 2417 KNOWING that this should be a bigger(ish) one that'll take about an hour 18:37:46 <MarkMcCarthy> HelenZhou: I'll volunteer too 18:38:22 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: Alex, do you have an estimate for when the preview link will be ready? 18:39:04 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: I still need to stabilize that branch, and that should be close by end of the week. THEN we can start on the WAI ARIA-practices repo work. no estimate yet 18:39:18 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: so maybe not next week, the following week? 18:39:24 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: Could be a good target 18:39:58 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: I'd love to get the review done in a week, once it's ready 18:40:34 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: I'll ask again next week 18:40:45 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: Alex, any blockers on stabilizing the branch? 18:40:54 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: No, but getting through two PRs including the link checker 18:41:10 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: I could use feedback on #2481 18:41:12 <Github1> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2481 : Add new file structure support to create-gh-project.js script (Issue 2418 task 7) 18:41:42 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: got it 18:42:28 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: I'll raise the issue about the classes (sorry to make more work for stabilization). Any other issues we need to discuss about stabilization? 18:42:51 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:42:51 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: We discussed generating patterns/practices files. Not currently urgent or anything, but on my mind as a future requirement 18:43:01 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: we could punt that til after we land this immediate work 18:43:48 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: I don't think we're directly linking to those anywhere besides navigation, so it's not as urgent right? 18:43:53 <MarkMcCarthy> Alex: That's true 18:44:06 <MarkMcCarthy> TOPIC: New Issues 18:44:16 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: there are four in our agenda today 18:44:35 <MarkMcCarthy> TOPIC: Pattern for browsable 'locked' or 'answered' quiz/test/exam question? #2508 18:44:36 <Github1> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2508 : Pattern for browsable 'locked' or 'answered' quiz/test/exam question? 18:44:44 <MarkMcCarthy> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2508 18:47:20 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: we got responses from Brennan. 18:47:28 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy: [reading Brennan's response] 18:48:31 <MarkMcCarthy> jongund_: sometimes, if "you answered X" type of statement goes after a question, an AT user has to get to that AFTER getting through disabled controls, so putting it before the quesdtion could help 18:48:50 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: adding that (before the question) AND -readonly would be perfect 18:49:16 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: ultimately, I think that's good feedback. 18:49:31 <MarkMcCarthy> jongund_: should be it be signified in a landmark or heading? other than plain text, anyway? 18:50:20 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: semantically, if the questions and answers are list items or paragraphs, or otherwise are supported by a heading structure, I wouldn't recommend it 18:50:59 <MarkMcCarthy> jongund_: what about a region with an accname of "Question Result" or something similar? 18:51:24 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: if there's one question per page, and already a few regions, sure. if there's 40 on a page, and it's imperative to get to the nav region, that could clog things up 18:52:31 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: I'm not sure what could be widely reusable for a pattern here. For inclusive tests/quizzes, absolutely. broadly speaking, though, i'm not sure. 18:52:57 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: there's definitely a use case, but every test designer may choose soemthing different 18:53:15 <MarkMcCarthy> jongund_: a dialog box could also be a good way to express feedback/answers to questions 18:53:21 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: that works well for us here at Meta 18:54:39 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: this is a perfect case for readonly. it's readable by everyone, and not disabled. 18:54:50 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: why? 18:55:25 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: the disabled attribute makes it unreadable (visually) - they don't pass contrast. it effectively says "this isn't relevant" 18:56:04 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: the fact that HTML doesn't support readonly... it's technicalities, and IMO should be updated 18:56:27 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: i've worked on several apps where disabled and readonly both should and can be used, and they mean different things 18:57:05 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: we allow aria-disabled and aria-readonly on many different things, though it may or may not be supported by all user agents 18:57:48 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: So, our feedback is that aria-disabled is the most interoperable solution, moreso than HTML disabled. 18:58:17 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: Yes, but then you have to make it non-operable in different ways (could even be a good use of a <div> vs. <input>) 18:58:52 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: or use <disabled> and override the CSS to make it perceivable 18:58:59 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: just depends on how they want to build it 18:59:03 <MarkMcCarthy> TOPIC: Wrap-up 18:59:54 <MarkMcCarthy> zakim, who is here? 18:59:54 <Zakim> Present: Matt_King, MarkMcCarthy, jamesn 18:59:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see MarkMcCarthy, jongund_, RRSAgent, Zakim, Matt_King, MichaelC, github-bot, Mike5Matrix1, Github1, jamesn, ZoeBijl, trackbot 19:00:08 <MarkMcCarthy> present+ HelenZhou AlexF 19:00:32 <MarkMcCarthy> RRSAgent, make minutes 19:00:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/18-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy 19:02:21 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: We'll see you all next week! 19:02:24 <MarkMcCarthy> RRSAgent, make minutes 19:02:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/18-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy 19:18:21 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 19:21:27 <MichaelC_> MichaelC_ has joined #aria-apg 19:53:35 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 20:08:49 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 20:37:34 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 20:42:29 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 20:53:47 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 21:21:01 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 21:22:41 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg 21:33:09 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 21:46:21 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 21:49:48 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 21:53:10 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 22:12:03 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 22:31:04 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 22:35:48 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 22:41:36 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 22:42:36 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg 23:34:45 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg