13:38:22 RRSAgent has joined #silver 13:38:22 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/10/14-silver-irc 13:38:25 RRSAgent, make logs Public 13:38:26 Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group 13:39:09 agenda+ Daylight Saving Time (DST) change -- second half of 2022 13:39:12 agenda+ Writing outcomes as user needs 13:39:15 Present+ 13:45:54 jeanne has joined #silver 13:46:50 zakim, start meeting 13:46:50 RRSAgent, make logs Public 13:46:51 Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group 13:47:19 present: 13:47:19 chair: Shawn, jeanne 13:47:19 present+ 13:47:19 zakim, clear agenda 13:47:19 agenda cleared 13:47:20 rrsagent, make minutes 13:47:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/14-silver-minutes.html jeanne 13:47:20 q? 13:48:43 agenda+ This week in AG 13:49:11 agenda+ Writing outcomes as user needs 13:58:11 Chuck has joined #silver 14:02:40 SuzanneTaylor has joined #silver 14:02:52 maryjom has joined #silver 14:03:12 present+ 14:03:45 Wilco has joined #silver 14:04:26 Makoto has joined #silver 14:04:37 present+ 14:04:43 present+ 14:05:04 q+ to ask about our definition of "quorum" today 14:05:35 ack me 14:05:35 Lauriat, you wanted to ask about our definition of "quorum" today 14:05:48 +1 14:06:34 scribe: SuzanneTaylor 14:06:50 kirkwood has joined #silver 14:06:51 janina has joined #silver 14:06:54 present+ 14:07:50 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Upcoming_agendas#October_18th_.28Chuck.29 14:08:14 Chuck: AGWG will review WCAG to ITC work statement... 14:08:35 reviewing possible conformance models will be the primary topic 14:08:40 q? 14:08:40 Zakim, take up item 1 14:08:41 agendum 1 -- This week in AG -- taken up [from jeanne] 14:08:46 ... see the agenda for links to all of these resources 14:08:49 Zakim, take up item 2 14:08:49 agendum 2 -- Writing outcomes as user needs -- taken up [from jeanne] 14:09:26 Shawn: I have added and agenda item as a reminder about clock changes in different locations - please double check the times 14:10:28 jeanne has joined #silver 14:11:22 Thank you to Suzanne for scribing! 14:11:39 Jeanne: We are discussing writing outcomes as user needs ... 14:11:56 At TPAC the AGWG decided to further explore the idea of writing outcomes as user needs... 14:12:47 since we didn't have enough subgroup volunteers, we decided to work on this in Silver, since it is part of the work to write up the process for writing Guidelines/Outcomes etc for Silver ... 14:13:12 We decided to start by applying the process from errors on a different guideline 14:13:44 Jeanne: We would do this as a group with alt-text, and then break up and do this for the other 5 guidelines that we have in WCAG 3... 14:14:53 Makoto's group was working with the idea of staying as close to WCAG 2 as possible and just changing the structure ... 14:15:07 Wiki page -> https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki/Writing-Outcomes-as-User-Needs 14:15:16 I set up a wiki page for this ^ 14:16:21 q+ recalling Conformance Options input as well 14:16:23 Jeanne: And went back and collected the original user needs analysis docs for each of the guidelines, and put all of this on the wiki page 14:16:32 q+ 14:16:43 ack jan 14:16:43 q+ 14:17:06 Alt Text - Writing Outcomes as User Needs -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zLOSUWkXDkT_uyVVKpuidtOF_LLEhaAXJ8v88oM1Wn4/ 14:17:40 Janina: at some point Makoto and Conformance options worked together and used that work as an example for an option for conformance; I can look up those documents if you like 14:17:52 Jeanne: I think that was related to ATAG and meta data as well 14:18:06 Jeanne: Yes, please find and I'll add to the wiki 14:18:14 ack Mak 14:18:36 Makoto: What made it difficult was SC 1.1.1 had a wide range... 14:18:50 the subtext members wished to propose dividing it up... 14:18:54 q+ 14:19:16 when would be a good time? It covers images, forms, audio, video, sensory experiences, etc... 14:19:25 it makes the SC more complex than expected ... 14:19:35 q+ 14:19:35 I'd like to see a guidelines that is only about images at least... 14:19:40 present+ 14:19:47 when would be a good time to discuss this topic... 14:19:49 ack Rach 14:20:04 Rachel: I think this is a good time to discuss... 14:20:31 we also have the whole cateogorization exercise to address this in a more wholistic way 14:20:39 q+ to repeat what I think I heard Rachael say? 14:20:42 ack Jan 14:20:43 q? 14:20:54 s/Rachel/Rachael 14:21:30 Janina: There has been some pushback against clasifying different types of images... 14:21:45 but I think this would be very valuable... 14:22:40 ack Ch 14:22:40 Chuck, you wanted to repeat what I think I heard Rachael say? 14:22:49 Jeanne: Makoto can you give us a summary of the proposal? 14:23:13 Makoto: Alt text for images is the most basic, but SC 1.1.1 covers much more... 14:23:24 Jeanne, your request to Makoto exactly addressed my question. Very happy! 14:23:27 I would propose a guideline about images only... 14:23:48 a guidelines about form controls; one for videos/audios; etc... 14:23:58 q+ 14:23:59 alt text for images should be 1 guideline... 14:24:22 the different types of images shown in the WAI tutorials... 14:24:32 Wilco has joined #silver 14:25:02 it is really a big topic and placing this in one guidelines will make this easier for people to meet WCAG... 14:25:33 q+ 14:25:35 q+ to say that Makoto's suggestion helps inform us on how to think about our exercise today. 14:26:14 SC 1.1.1 is very complicated and it's sufficient techniques are for many SC. People find this confusing. 14:26:57 Jeanne: soumds like a good place to start 14:27:00 ack jan 14:27:11 s/subtext members/alt text sub group members 14:28:48 Janina: I don't mind the idea of having one guideline about alt, but we should consider all of the types of images before we come up with that one rule 14:29:07 ack wil 14:29:11 Jeanne: I think that is very much what we are trying to do in this group - that early analysis 14:29:53 Not just screen readers, these are big COGA needs 14:30:04 Wilco: This is different, though, than user needs, how do these relate? 14:30:45 Jeanne: We are drilling down to specific examples and barriers 14:31:05 q+ 14:31:10 It's anyone who interfaces via "soda straw," but also anyone who's challenged by complexity 14:31:33 ack Ch 14:31:33 Chuck, you wanted to say that Makoto's suggestion helps inform us on how to think about our exercise today. 14:32:09 Suzanne: The user needs and this exercise release. Different types of images, this exercise is to identify the different kind of images and situations. 14:32:45 Suzanne: Sarah had us work on errors first by working on error flows, for images it would be identifying different types of images. Then we took the functional needs and wrote user needs based on the situations. 14:32:52 Jeanne: Let's get started 14:33:01 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zLOSUWkXDkT_uyVVKpuidtOF_LLEhaAXJ8v88oM1Wn4/edit 14:33:11 Jeanne: This is a copy of out template for writing guidelines... 14:33:26 we will start with identifying the flows and the user needs... 14:33:37 will scribe for Suzanne as needed. 14:34:07 Suzanne: We started with examples. Sarah had everyone keep an eye out for unusual error situations, and we put the observations in a document. 14:34:20 Jeanne: We'll start, then, with listing examples of flows... 14:34:40 Janina mentioned form controls... 14:34:51 q+ 14:35:07 Janina: the form controls might not start as images, but they may become images when it is time to validate the form... 14:35:10 ack Suzanne 14:35:13 ack Ch 14:35:40 Jeanne: let's call out examples, no need to queue 14:36:13 Makoto: out group focused on images, using different types of images that had been highlighted in the WAI tutorials... 14:36:21 s/out/our 14:36:33 Jeanne: complex graphics/charts 14:36:48 Makoto: functional images: links or buttons 14:37:16 Jeanne: instructional images, such as a diagram for putting together furniture 14:37:53 Makoto: informative, decorative, functional, images of text and ... 14:38:09 complex images like graphs, maps, diagrams... 14:38:24 groups of images, such as 5 star rating... 14:38:37 images maps, making 7 types of images 14:39:06 q+ 14:39:08 Jeanne: commic books, graphic novels - becoming increasingly common 14:39:20 Jeanne: 14:39:43 Suzanne: I'd like to add "fun images for children" 14:40:14 Suzanne: Fun images for children that serve more important purposes beyond decorations. 14:40:44 Jeanne: Any other immediate thoughts? and also feel free to add more 14:41:22 Chuck: I thought Makoto's list was very complete, and that my example of instructional images could be a sub-set example 14:41:50 ack Ch 14:41:54 Jeanne: those are also sequential and multiple though, so it's good to stand alone 14:42:14 q+ 14:42:16 Wilco: should we title this Images? and if so, should form controls be included 14:42:30 ack Ch 14:42:47 Jeanne: the intension was images used within and for form controls 14:43:46 14:45:02 q+ 14:45:17 ack Ch 14:45:47 Chuck: If we are breaking down this far, perhaps we should highlight "You are here" maps 14:46:53 q+ to mention visual indicators 14:47:04 ack Lau 14:47:04 Lauriat, you wanted to mention visual indicators 14:47:09 q+ 14:47:52 q+ 14:48:01 ack Mak 14:48:06 Shawn: when entire website is treated as an image in an onboarding experience, with arrows pointing to say here's where you can do x 14:48:58 Makoto: One thing the alt-text subgroup could not agree on was icon fonts, should we include it here? 14:49:47 suzanne: Icon font is a technique, iconography is a type of image. 14:50:04 suzanne: Icon font is a letter or character that turns it into a tiny image. 14:50:22 Chuck: That helps clarify the differences. 14:51:59 A concrete examples of icon fonts would be Font Awesome https://fontawesome.com/icons 14:52:10 q? 14:52:18 ack Ch 14:53:18 Chuck: Fun exercise; hoping to find way to climb back up to a higher level of detail 14:53:43 q+ 14:53:46 q+ 14:54:20 I see queue, will follow 14:54:34 ack Wil 14:55:17 +1 to Wilco 14:55:26 Shawn and Chuck are driving 14:55:31 +1 to wialco 14:55:35 Wilco: just a note: I think we need to be very mindful of our own bias with technologies; all types of images can be made all different ways. so we should focus on what the image is for the user 14:56:12 Suzanne: In the errors group, if we follow the same process, what we do after breaking down images, we took the functional needs (it does get long), underneath all the examples... 14:56:21 I'm recalling a months long discussion thread about 8-98 years ago during HTML 5 development about composite images and how to handle them 14:56:37 Homework: Please pick an example from the list and write up #2 - what are the barriers encountered in that example. 14:56:38 https://github.com/w3c/silver/pull/2 : Prototypes criteria detail 14:56:40 Suzanne: You can shortcut. We looked for where the different examples discovered user needs that may be overlooked. Such as children's art. Is there a different need there? 14:57:01 Suzanne: A parent looking at an album of children's art may have different needs. What does the parent want to know? 14:57:16 q+ to suggest my home work 14:57:21 Suzanne: That's the next step. It does divide rapidly, but it helps to define where the needs match up. 14:57:23 q? 14:57:28 ack Suz 14:57:57 Makoto: I could divide these items into 7 types of images, so that we can be aligned with WAI tutorials - I'm happy to do that 14:58:00 ack Mak 14:58:00 Makoto, you wanted to suggest my home work 14:58:02 q_ 14:58:04 q+ 14:58:05 ack Ch 14:58:31 q+ to note the homework 14:58:36 Chuck: I wonder if we could turn this into homework assignments? (chair hat off) 14:58:43 ack Lau 14:58:43 Lauriat, you wanted to note the homework 14:59:20 Shawn: Jeanne has suggested homework: please select an example from the list and write up the barriers encountered for that example 15:00:18 rrsagent, make minutes 15:00:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/14-silver-minutes.html Chuck 15:18:39 maryjom has joined #silver 15:19:16 maryjom has joined #silver 15:20:16 maryjom has joined #silver 15:59:45 kirkwood has joined #silver 16:04:58 jsun_ has joined #silver 16:13:01 SuzanneTaylor has joined #silver 17:09:07 kirkwood has joined #silver 18:33:42 kirkwood has joined #silver 20:06:17 kirkwood has joined #silver 20:29:50 kirkwood has joined #silver