16:58:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:58:07 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/10/06-aria-irc
16:58:08 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:58:10 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:58:13 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:58:15 <jamesn> present+
16:58:24 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:58:24 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:58:24 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20221006T130000
16:58:24 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:58:24 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3Cw2S12
16:58:25 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3SZDVRb
16:58:27 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:58:30 <agendabot> agenda+  -> AOM ID Reflection https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/8352
16:58:33 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Consider new abstract role "phrase" https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1814
16:58:35 <agendabot> agenda+  -> [normative][author] clarify widget in trees can only be group and treeitem https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1793
16:58:39 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69
16:58:41 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 triage https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A1.3-Blocking
17:01:49 <spectranaut> present+
17:02:35 <chlane> present+
17:02:42 <Adam_Page> present+
17:02:43 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
17:02:47 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:02:49 <jamesn> regrets+ scottOHara
17:03:02 <jamesn> regrets+ PeterKrautzberger
17:03:27 <spectranaut> regrets+ AaronLeventhal
17:03:32 <jcraig> present+
17:03:37 <Adam_Page> scribe Adam_Page
17:03:43 <Adam_Page> scribe: Adam_Page
17:03:54 <sarahhigley> sarahhigley has joined #aria
17:03:57 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:03:58 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:03:58 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3Cw2S12 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:05:53 <Adam_Page> ... #1824 from wilco
17:06:20 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
17:06:47 <Adam_Page> ... aria-label is defined as a global property, it’s just prohibited on some elements
17:07:21 <Adam_Page> ... probably should make explicit what is prohibited in 1.2
17:07:43 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: can’t put it in 1.2
17:08:05 <Adam_Page> jamesn: will label as 1.3 blocking
17:08:21 <Adam_Page> ... #1823
17:09:13 <Adam_Page> ... should move 6.5 under 6.6 as 6.6.1 Global States and Properties
17:09:25 <Adam_Page> jamescraig: sounds editorial
17:10:42 <chlane> I can take it
17:11:16 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #1822
17:11:34 <Adam_Page> ... this is too specific
17:12:20 <Adam_Page> jamesc: France and Italy are beginning to require accessibility statements but still only on a subset of sites
17:12:28 <Adam_Page> ...maybe for conformance checkers, but still not good enough
17:13:00 <Adam_Page> ... as an alternative, what about rel="accessibility-statement"?
17:13:29 <Adam_Page> ... jcraig will take assignment
17:13:45 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #1821
17:13:56 <Adam_Page> ... propose to agenda for next week
17:14:14 <Adam_Page> BryanGaraventa: ok
17:14:22 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:14:34 <Matt_King> present+
17:15:36 <Adam_Page> ... would be good to get all three accname mappings in one place for Mozilla, Chromium, and Webkit
17:16:18 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #143
17:16:59 <Adam_Page> ... related to sarahhigley’s work on allowed child elements?
17:17:09 <Adam_Page> sarahhigley: working on two things related to this
17:17:17 <Adam_Page> ... will take assignment
17:17:28 <CurtBellew> present+
17:17:37 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #437
17:18:05 <Adam_Page> ... need to get auto-publication going
17:18:15 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: agreed
17:18:22 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #1818
17:18:51 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: Aaron should look at this
17:19:34 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: aria-hidden removes things from the accessibility tree
17:19:41 <Adam_Page> jamesn: and then aria-owns puts it back in
17:19:50 <Adam_Page> ... we’ll agenda for next week
17:19:54 <Adam_Page> q?
17:19:54 <jamesn> q?
17:19:59 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:19:59 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3SZDVRb -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:20:09 <Adam_Page> jamesn: 5 PRs
17:20:18 <Adam_Page> ... #1820
17:21:46 <Adam_Page> jcraig: some authors may _expect_ user-triggered changes in a live region to be spoken?
17:21:55 <Adam_Page> ... is there opt-in or opt-out
17:22:01 <Adam_Page> ... nevermind, we clarified in statement
17:22:41 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we can merge this, right?
17:23:03 <jamesn> action: jamesn to merge
17:23:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2168 - Merge [on James Nurthen - due 2022-10-13].
17:23:31 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #144 and #171 are chores, can merge
17:23:36 <Adam_Page> ... #170
17:23:56 <Adam_Page> ... need reviewers for this
17:24:24 <Adam_Page> ... who understands IDL?  Aaron?
17:24:28 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I’ll review
17:24:40 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I’ll review as well
17:24:54 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:24:54 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:25:11 <Adam_Page> jamesn: any deep dive proposals for next week, Oct 13?
17:25:20 <Adam_Page> ... are we done with process for now?
17:25:27 <Adam_Page> ... deep dive on what should go in a review checklist?
17:25:35 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: no lol
17:25:45 <Adam_Page> jamesn: if no one has an idea, there will be no deep dive next week
17:25:50 <Adam_Page> jamesn: no deep dive next weekl
17:25:59 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:25:59 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> AOM ID Reflection https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/8352 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:26:13 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:26:23 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: we can push this to next week because it’s going to be discussed in an AOM meeting later today
17:26:59 <jamesn> q?
17:27:01 <Adam_Page> sarahhigley: I was looking at this yesterday from an author’s perspective
17:27:04 <spectranaut> explainer: https://gist.github.com/mrego/c900b2908780fa047501f5641fda92d1
17:28:37 <Adam_Page> jcraig: this is just for frozen array element reflections
17:29:54 <Adam_Page> jamesn: any library that is relying on aria-labelledby will need to have new logic to deal with this
17:29:58 <sarahhigley> q+
17:30:24 <Adam_Page> jcraig: if something else is conflicting with library and using this other method, then yes, it would need to update.  Unlikely to happen overnight
17:30:48 <Adam_Page> cyns: if you’re buildling up controls all in script, will you be able to have element references like this?
17:31:15 <Adam_Page> jcraig: if you use element references to assign them, you couldn’t access them through DOM property
17:31:28 <Adam_Page> cyns: seems less than ideal, what problem is this solving?
17:31:45 <jamesn> ack sarahhigley
17:31:58 <Adam_Page> sarahhigley: the idea of reflecting at all would be the thing that could cause issues in modern JS libraries
17:32:09 <Adam_Page> ... I’ve never checked an aria-labelledby attribute to see if it exists and what it points to
17:32:29 <Adam_Page> ... what I see happening is the library sets the IDL reference and then somewhere else in JSX, aria-label is set to undefined
17:33:01 <Adam_Page> ... library will first set IDL attribute reference, and then React will have a render cycle... race condition
17:33:07 <Adam_Page> ... reflecting at all seems like it will cause problems
17:33:10 <cyns> q+
17:33:14 <Adam_Page> jcraig: even reflecting empty string?
17:33:49 <Adam_Page> sarahhigley: haven’t used IDL attribute much but whether it’s set to a stale ID or an empty ID either way doesn’t matter
17:33:54 <Adam_Page> jcraig: please comment on that
17:34:47 <Adam_Page> sarahhigley: we do extra logic based on label / labelled-by, so we have conditional logic
17:35:20 <Adam_Page> jcraig: this sounds like a JSX update will be needed
17:35:25 <Adam_Page> sarahhigley: that makes sense
17:35:34 <Adam_Page> q?
17:35:39 <jamesn> ack cyns
17:35:51 <Adam_Page> cyns: need to look at this more, not convinced
17:36:02 <Adam_Page> jcraig: look back at least 2 issues cross-referenced
17:36:36 <Adam_Page> jamesn: Alice commented on this 2 days ago
17:36:37 <jamesn> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/8306
17:36:57 <Adam_Page> cyns: can bring up at AAM meeting
17:37:24 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:37:24 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Consider new abstract role "phrase" https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1814 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:37:49 <jamesn> Looking at the roles we are discussing - this is very different from HTML Phrasing Content which includes all sorts of interactives. Using the same term would IMO cause confusion.
17:37:49 <jamesn> I've been trying to find a good term but haven't yet come up with one. Until we do I propose that we park this as changing abstract roles from one to another doesn't sound useful unless we can get the naming right.
17:37:51 <Adam_Page> jamesn: after working on this, concluded that this isn’t worth doing
17:39:17 <Adam_Page> jamesn: will leave issue open in case someone comes up with something that makes things clearer
17:39:30 <Adam_Page> jcraig: recommend closing as wont-fix
17:39:59 <Adam_Page> jamesn: no objections, so will close.  Considered it, not doing it.
17:40:27 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: the benefit of abstract roles is limited to property and state inheritance?
17:40:34 <Adam_Page> jamesn: only useful for us as creators of the spec
17:40:45 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: the benefit to us is property and state inheritance
17:41:07 <Adam_Page> jamesn: if abstract role were not in spec at all, I’d almost be in favor of that
17:41:15 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: it does actually provide us quite a lot of value
17:41:26 <Adam_Page> ... for example, all landmark roles
17:41:41 <Adam_Page> ... division of roles between structures, widgets, windows, etc. is also useful and we leverage that in spec
17:42:30 <jamesn> action: jamesn to close #908 as won't fix
17:42:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2169 - Close #908 as won't fix [on James Nurthen - due 2022-10-13].
17:42:32 <Adam_Page> chlane: doesn’t dialog also depend on abstract role?
17:42:39 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: yes, another example
17:42:40 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:42:40 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> [normative][author] clarify widget in trees can only be group and treeitem https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1793 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:43:03 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we have 1 approving review
17:45:30 <Adam_Page> ... confusing and needs discussion with scotto and pkrautz.  let’s move on
17:45:34 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:45:34 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:45:58 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I’ve made this mergeable so we have a preview available
17:46:29 <Adam_Page> jcraig: it’s not ready yet, leave as a draft
17:46:45 <Adam_Page> jamesn: okay, will convert to draft
17:47:49 <Adam_Page> jcraig: okay to remove all other assignees besides me
17:48:22 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:48:22 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- -> 1.3 triage https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A1.3-Blocking -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:48:51 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I’m going to take initial pass, probably simple change
17:49:12 <Adam_Page> ... Matt_King, any progress?
17:49:36 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: yes, closer to PR, very high on my list
17:50:15 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: won’t do #1159 for another month
17:50:42 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #1150, need to figure out each use of descendant
17:50:55 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we don’t currently define “descendant”
17:51:01 <Adam_Page> ... flat DOM, shadow DOM, accessibility tree?
17:51:16 <Adam_Page> ... problem in ARIA 1.2, so need to put it in 1.3
17:51:39 <Adam_Page> ... please help
17:51:46 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:51:46 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, Adam_Page
17:52:10 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
17:52:10 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jamesn, spectranaut, chlane, Adam_Page, MarkMcCarthy, jcraig, Matt_King, CurtBellew
17:52:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:52:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/10/06-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:52:15 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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