IRC log of silver on 2022-09-30

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13:44:30 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/30-silver-irc
13:44:33 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:44:33 [Zakim]
Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:45:37 [Lauriat]
agenda+ Stand up temporary equity group https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/temp_equity_group/q/ survey
13:45:39 [Lauriat]
agenda+ Writing outcomes as user needs
13:45:44 [Lauriat]
Present+
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13:55:28 [jeanne]
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13:57:38 [ToddL]
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13:58:01 [ToddL]
present+
13:58:18 [Chuck]
present+
13:58:18 [jeanne]
agenda?
13:58:29 [Chuck]
agenda?
13:58:34 [janina]
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13:58:37 [janina]
present+
13:58:44 [jeanne]
present+
14:00:16 [Rachael]
present+
14:00:32 [Lauriat]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List
14:01:26 [maryjom]
present+
14:01:55 [sarahhorton]
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14:02:02 [sarahhorton]
present+
14:02:02 [ToddL]
I am mobile and cannot turn on my microphone
14:02:34 [ToddL]
Apologies, I cannot scribe today.
14:03:07 [Makoto]
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14:03:15 [janina]
scribe+ janina
14:03:18 [Makoto]
present+
14:03:32 [janina]
zakim, next item
14:03:32 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Stand up temporary equity group https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/temp_equity_group/q/ survey -- taken up [from Lauriat]
14:03:57 [jeanne]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/temp_equity_group/?login
14:04:20 [janina]
jspellman: Setting up temporary group to develop approach for equity
14:05:08 [janina]
jspellman: Initial group raised excellent issues which were discussed at TPAC, though not all actually impact WCAG3
14:05:49 [janina]
jspellman: We did not reach consensus on next steps during TPAC; therefore this new group will look at what to do next
14:06:06 [Azlan]
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14:06:08 [kirkwood]
present+
14:06:25 [janina]
jspellman: Invites responses in WBS and now ...
14:06:34 [janina]
zakim, next item
14:06:34 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Writing outcomes as user needs -- taken up [from Lauriat]
14:06:47 [Poornima_]
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14:06:51 [JenniferS]
present+
14:07:03 [Azlan]
present+
14:07:05 [Poornima_]
present+
14:08:01 [janina]
jspellman: Notes last week's survey didn't sufficiently populate all the proposed new subgroups
14:08:17 [SuzanneTaylor]
present+
14:08:25 [janina]
jspellman: So decided to proceed via framing user needs as outcomes
14:09:31 [janina]
jspellman: Discussed from perspective of Errors Subgroup spreadsheet
14:09:53 [janina]
jspellman: So, will attempt to develop to determine whether this approach will work
14:10:58 [jeanne]
Examples of Needs as a NOrmative layer -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pC13dvHXw75siLmvq9QvUf-8lzniT5TDoJ0GfZDpUa8/
14:11:51 [janina]
jspellman: Not functional needs because too difficult to test, though they are useful from other perspectives, e.g. organizing pwd coverage
14:12:16 [shadi_]
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14:12:25 [janina]
jspellman: So, these are not the user needs in the functional needs doc, but rather our previous work on user needs
14:13:36 [janina]
jspellman: points to inventory
14:13:50 [jeanne]
User Flows Inventory -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Fix0uwC0vODgiKl09lMF77FMdd52u64KG9_-N86r4UE/
14:14:29 [janina]
jspellman: But, I was not in this group; so, perhaps Sarah or Todd might discuss how this was developed?
14:14:42 [janina]
jspellman: Sorry about no warning!
14:15:04 [janina]
sarahhorton: Can start though have hard stop at the bottom of the hour
14:16:06 [janina]
sarahhorton: Recollection is that errors not originally included, but an important concept to capture
14:16:21 [janina]
sarahhorton: So we developed several scenarios
14:16:53 [janina]
sarahhorton: e.g. "file not found" -- 404
14:17:28 [janina]
sarahhorton: a typo in form filling and no clear guidance as to what field is malformed
14:18:11 [janina]
sarahhorton: We described user action and system response followed by user's response to the system message; which sometimes is "give up!"
14:18:47 [janina]
sarahhorton: We also mapped to severity because all users may need to overcome such issues
14:20:09 [janina]
sarahhorton: e.g. error on submit -- but no helpful error message; maybe no message even
14:20:41 [janina]
sarahhorton: user needs to know what specifically is malformed; and how best and most quickly to correct
14:21:08 [janina]
q+
14:21:39 [janina]
sarahhorton: notes that colorization is a common means to present this, but that doesn't work for all users
14:22:52 [jeanne]
ack jan
14:23:13 [Chuck]
janina: I want to capture an option and get responses. This might be an application for a spec from APA, this may be appropriate as a simplificiation. Show me the fields where there's a problem and hide the rest.
14:23:32 [Chuck]
Janina: I would find that helpful rather than using color. I wonder if it could get capture and added to use cases.
14:23:43 [ToddL]
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14:23:43 [Chuck]
s/simpificiation/simplification/
14:24:00 [ToddL]
I don’t have anything to add, Sarah.
14:25:13 [janina]
jspellman: So, captured -- but question can we turn these user needs into normative specification in WCAG3
14:26:15 [Chuck]
Janina: We are looking for new use cases, and we had interesting evaluation from TAG.
14:26:37 [janina]
sarahhorton: Notes our notations for making our doc more useful
14:26:53 [Chuck]
Thanks Sarah!
14:26:57 [janina]
sarahhorton: whereas Janina was talking about a possible technology that might help with the error situation
14:27:01 [janina]
janina: Correct
14:27:58 [Lauriat]
q+ to propose drafting more before trying to decide normative vs. informative
14:28:13 [janina]
jspellman: What's most helpful now? Continue on the erorrs path? Or to discuss normative vs informative
14:28:16 [Rachael]
q+
14:28:27 [Chuck]
ack Lau
14:28:27 [Zakim]
Lauriat, you wanted to propose drafting more before trying to decide normative vs. informative
14:28:33 [janina]
Lauriat: would probably help to draft more of these to answer that
14:29:26 [janina]
Lauriat: at this point normative vs informative probably too early
14:29:48 [Wilco]
+1
14:29:54 [Chuck]
Janina: I think we want the informative vs normative conversation, but we need to cover the territory first.
14:30:06 [jeanne]
ack racha
14:30:10 [shadi]
present+
14:30:25 [shadi]
RRSAgent, pointer?
14:30:25 [RRSAgent]
See https://www.w3.org/2022/09/30-silver-irc#T14-30-25
14:30:26 [janina]
Rachael: Believe we got as far as we could at this point at TPAC on the normative conversation
14:30:30 [Lauriat]
Maybe starting with https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#guidelines outcomes?
14:31:05 [Lauriat]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2022/outcomes/text-alternative-available
14:31:31 [Rachael]
Where we got to on Normative vs. Informative: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WcOWm75D5ocd6gUhfsnSz-XK7lcNKW4EnOiHADTq-fI/edit#heading=h.76yx9j1lbp74
14:31:32 [janina]
Lauriat: suggesting exercise of rewriting outcomes as user needs; above is a close to done
14:31:53 [janina]
jspellman: could also look at the original list each group did
14:32:05 [janina]
jspellman: e.g. text alternatives from Makoto's group
14:32:42 [Chuck]
+1 interested in trying both
14:32:45 [Lauriat]
+1
14:32:46 [janina]
jspellman: Maybe do both and see how things match up with original user needs?
14:32:51 [SuzanneTaylor]
+1
14:33:04 [janina]
jspellman: So, text alternatives ...
14:33:10 [jeanne]
Outcome: Provides text alternatives for non-text content for user agents and assistive technologies. This allows users who are unable to perceive and / or understand the non-text content to determine its meaning.
14:34:02 [Chuck]
Janina: Meaning and utility? If it's a control what it's good for.
14:34:10 [Chuck]
Jeanne: Can you clarify?
14:34:29 [Lauriat]
q+ to check my understanding of the granularity
14:34:42 [Chuck]
Janina: A picture needs a description, but a control needs a description of what it does. What's the outcome of hitting a button, for example. Meaning or utility. An expansion. That's close to a useful defintion.
14:35:15 [janina]
Lauriat: raises level of granularity question here ...
14:35:57 [jeanne]
WCAG to Silver Outline Map -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/
14:36:08 [MichaelC]
q+
14:36:10 [janina]
Lauriat: had thought a higher level; but maybe Janina's notion is correct. Thoughts?
14:36:24 [Chuck]
ack Lau
14:36:24 [Zakim]
Lauriat, you wanted to check my understanding of the granularity
14:36:41 [janina]
SuzanneTaylor: we had error flow; why are you getting an error; what's the UI like?
14:37:18 [janina]
SuzanneTaylor: in this case might be a few classes of images
14:37:27 [jeanne]
q+ to give background on limitations put on Text Alternatives subgroup
14:37:46 [janina]
SuzanneTaylor: and could have different scenarios for different types
14:37:53 [Lauriat]
qv?
14:38:26 [Chuck]
ack Mi
14:38:50 [Chuck]
ack Jea
14:38:50 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to give background on limitations put on Text Alternatives subgroup
14:38:51 [janina]
MichaelC: understood at TPAC that user needs were high level; and the functional needs the different ways of meeting for various individuals
14:39:50 [janina]
jspellman: recalls exercise of writing sample guidelines ... had artificial constraints on text alternatives because we were trying to stay as close as possible to 2.x
14:40:56 [jeanne]
WCAG to Silver Outline Map -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/
14:41:50 [janina]
Lauriat: so recalls our old attempt to group mapping 2.x; and we did it before we were clerar on how to express user needs
14:42:39 [janina]
Lauriat: first grouping has nontext content; label and name so alt text for image matches accessible name so can be voice activated
14:44:18 [janina]
jspellman: so reverse engineer but also find original needs once we find that doc?
14:45:09 [janina]
jspellman: so start with errors?
14:45:19 [janina]
Lauriat: only concern is that it's a lot
14:46:08 [janina]
jspellman: looks for visual contrast
14:46:09 [jeanne]
Visual Contrast of Text -> https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#visual-contrast-of-text
14:46:18 [jeanne]
Outcome: Provides adequate luminance contrast between background and text colors to make the text easy to read.
14:46:44 [janina]
jspellman: has one method
14:46:54 [jeanne]
Method -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2022/outcomes/luminance-contrast-between-background-and-text
14:47:59 [janina]
Lauriat: so new approach is making text easy to read vs how that's achieved
14:48:13 [Wilco]
q+
14:48:15 [janina]
janina: good because some users will want less contrast
14:48:39 [janina]
Wilco: notes color blindness component for luminocity
14:48:48 [SuzanneTaylor]
q+
14:48:54 [Chuck]
ack wil
14:49:13 [Chuck]
ack suz
14:49:22 [janina]
SuzanneTaylor: errors one may help ...
14:49:34 [jeanne]
Use Cases for Visual Contrast -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Visual_Contrast_of_Text_Subgroup#Use_Cases_Defined
14:50:26 [janina]
SuzanneTaylor: so errors could say users need instructions/features to avoid errors
14:51:11 [janina]
Lauriat: believe Wilco's specificity is what we need
14:52:38 [janina]
jspellman: notes use cases for visual did different types of text content
14:53:32 [janina]
jspellman: ansilary text; non text elements where text within is not covered
14:53:39 [janina]
jspellman: jeanne continues to read breakdowns
14:54:57 [janina]
jspellman: Asks whether original analysis covered this?
14:55:05 [SuzanneTaylor]
q+ to say these are similar to the errors group's list of "error flows"
14:55:10 [janina]
Chuck: no, though don't recall details
14:55:55 [ToddL]
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14:55:59 [Chuck]
Chuck: We did the analysis, but we didn't follow the prescribed process, we chose our own path, and I think it would have been of great value to have followed Silver's recommendations.
14:56:09 [janina]
jspellman: suggests to try this process guided by our errors people next time
14:56:13 [Lauriat]
ack SuzanneTaylor
14:56:13 [Zakim]
SuzanneTaylor, you wanted to say these are similar to the errors group's list of "error flows"
14:57:32 [ToddL]
Thank you everyone, have a great weekend!
14:57:59 [Makoto]
Thank you all. Bye!
14:58:19 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/30-silver-minutes.html janina
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