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13:44:33 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:44:33 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:45:37 <Lauriat> agenda+ Stand up temporary equity group https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/temp_equity_group/q/ survey
13:45:39 <Lauriat> agenda+ Writing outcomes as user needs
13:45:44 <Lauriat> Present+
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13:58:01 <ToddL> present+
13:58:18 <Chuck> present+
13:58:18 <jeanne> agenda?
13:58:29 <Chuck> agenda?
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13:58:37 <janina> present+
13:58:44 <jeanne> present+
14:00:16 <Rachael> present+
14:00:32 <Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List
14:01:26 <maryjom> present+
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14:02:02 <sarahhorton> present+
14:02:02 <ToddL> I am mobile and cannot turn on my microphone
14:02:34 <ToddL> Apologies, I cannot scribe today.
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14:03:15 <janina> scribe+ janina
14:03:18 <Makoto> present+
14:03:32 <janina> zakim, next item
14:03:32 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Stand up temporary equity group https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/temp_equity_group/q/ survey -- taken up [from Lauriat]
14:03:57 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/temp_equity_group/?login
14:04:20 <janina> jspellman:  Setting up temporary group to develop approach for equity
14:05:08 <janina> jspellman: Initial group raised excellent issues which were discussed at TPAC, though not all actually impact WCAG3
14:05:49 <janina> jspellman: We did not reach consensus on next steps during TPAC; therefore this new group will look at what to do next
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14:06:08 <kirkwood> present+
14:06:25 <janina> jspellman: Invites responses in WBS and now ...
14:06:34 <janina> zakim, next item
14:06:34 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Writing outcomes as user needs -- taken up [from Lauriat]
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14:06:51 <JenniferS> present+
14:07:03 <Azlan> present+
14:07:05 <Poornima_> present+
14:08:01 <janina> jspellman: Notes last week's survey didn't sufficiently populate all the proposed new subgroups
14:08:17 <SuzanneTaylor> present+
14:08:25 <janina> jspellman: So decided to proceed via framing user needs as outcomes
14:09:31 <janina> jspellman: Discussed from perspective of Errors Subgroup spreadsheet
14:09:53 <janina> jspellman: So, will attempt to develop to determine whether this approach will work
14:10:58 <jeanne> Examples of Needs as a NOrmative layer -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pC13dvHXw75siLmvq9QvUf-8lzniT5TDoJ0GfZDpUa8/
14:11:51 <janina> jspellman: Not functional needs because too difficult to test, though they are useful from other perspectives, e.g. organizing pwd coverage
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14:12:25 <janina> jspellman: So, these are not the user needs in the functional needs doc, but rather our previous work on user needs
14:13:36 <janina> jspellman: points to inventory
14:13:50 <jeanne> User Flows Inventory -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Fix0uwC0vODgiKl09lMF77FMdd52u64KG9_-N86r4UE/
14:14:29 <janina> jspellman: But, I was not in this group; so, perhaps Sarah or Todd might discuss how this was developed?
14:14:42 <janina> jspellman: Sorry about no warning!
14:15:04 <janina> sarahhorton: Can start though have hard stop at the bottom of the hour
14:16:06 <janina> sarahhorton: Recollection is that errors not originally included, but an important concept to capture
14:16:21 <janina> sarahhorton: So we developed several scenarios
14:16:53 <janina> sarahhorton: e.g. "file not found" -- 404
14:17:28 <janina> sarahhorton: a typo in form filling and no clear guidance as to what field is malformed
14:18:11 <janina> sarahhorton: We described user action and system response followed by user's response to the system message; which sometimes is "give up!"
14:18:47 <janina> sarahhorton: We also mapped to severity because all users may need to overcome such issues
14:20:09 <janina> sarahhorton: e.g. error on submit -- but no helpful error message; maybe no message even
14:20:41 <janina> sarahhorton: user needs to know what specifically is malformed; and how best and most quickly to correct
14:21:08 <janina> q+
14:21:39 <janina> sarahhorton: notes that colorization is a common means to present this, but that doesn't work for all users
14:22:52 <jeanne> ack jan
14:23:13 <Chuck> janina:  I want to capture an option and get responses.  This might be an application for a spec from APA, this may be appropriate as a simplificiation.  Show me the fields where there's a problem and hide the rest.
14:23:32 <Chuck> Janina:  I would find that helpful rather than using color.  I wonder if it could get capture and added to use cases.
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14:23:43 <Chuck> s/simpificiation/simplification/
14:24:00 <ToddL> I don’t have anything to add, Sarah.
14:25:13 <janina> jspellman: So, captured -- but question can we turn these user needs into normative specification in WCAG3
14:26:15 <Chuck> Janina:  We are looking for new use cases, and we had interesting evaluation from TAG.
14:26:37 <janina> sarahhorton: Notes our notations for making our doc more useful
14:26:53 <Chuck> Thanks Sarah!
14:26:57 <janina> sarahhorton: whereas Janina was talking about a possible technology that might help with the error situation
14:27:01 <janina> janina: Correct
14:27:58 <Lauriat> q+ to propose drafting more before trying to decide normative vs. informative
14:28:13 <janina> jspellman: What's most helpful now? Continue on the erorrs path? Or to discuss normative vs informative
14:28:16 <Rachael> q+
14:28:27 <Chuck> ack Lau
14:28:27 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to propose drafting more before trying to decide normative vs. informative
14:28:33 <janina> Lauriat: would probably help to draft more of these to answer that
14:29:26 <janina> Lauriat: at this point normative vs informative probably too early
14:29:48 <Wilco> +1
14:29:54 <Chuck> Janina:  I think we want the informative vs normative conversation, but we need to cover the territory first.
14:30:06 <jeanne> ack racha
14:30:10 <shadi> present+
14:30:25 <shadi> RRSAgent, pointer?
14:30:25 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2022/09/30-silver-irc#T14-30-25
14:30:26 <janina> Rachael: Believe we got as far as we could at this point at TPAC on the normative conversation
14:30:30 <Lauriat> Maybe starting with https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#guidelines outcomes?
14:31:05 <Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2022/outcomes/text-alternative-available
14:31:31 <Rachael> Where we got to on Normative vs. Informative: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WcOWm75D5ocd6gUhfsnSz-XK7lcNKW4EnOiHADTq-fI/edit#heading=h.76yx9j1lbp74
14:31:32 <janina> Lauriat: suggesting exercise of rewriting outcomes as user needs; above is a close to done
14:31:53 <janina> jspellman: could also look at the original list each group did
14:32:05 <janina> jspellman: e.g. text alternatives from Makoto's group
14:32:42 <Chuck> +1 interested in trying both
14:32:45 <Lauriat> +1
14:32:46 <janina> jspellman: Maybe do both and see how things match up with original user needs?
14:32:51 <SuzanneTaylor> +1
14:33:04 <janina> jspellman: So, text alternatives ...
14:33:10 <jeanne> Outcome: Provides text alternatives for non-text content for user agents and assistive technologies. This allows users who are unable to perceive and / or understand the non-text content to determine its meaning.
14:34:02 <Chuck> Janina:  Meaning and utility?  If it's a control what it's good for.
14:34:10 <Chuck> Jeanne:  Can you clarify?
14:34:29 <Lauriat> q+ to check my understanding of the granularity
14:34:42 <Chuck> Janina:  A picture needs a description, but a control needs a description of what it does.  What's the outcome of hitting a button, for example.  Meaning or utility.  An expansion.  That's close to a useful defintion.
14:35:15 <janina> Lauriat: raises level of granularity question here ...
14:35:57 <jeanne> WCAG to Silver Outline Map -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/
14:36:08 <MichaelC> q+
14:36:10 <janina> Lauriat: had thought a higher level; but maybe Janina's notion is correct. Thoughts?
14:36:24 <Chuck> ack Lau
14:36:24 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to check my understanding of the granularity
14:36:41 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: we had error flow; why are you getting an error; what's the UI like?
14:37:18 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: in this case might be a few classes of images
14:37:27 <jeanne> q+ to give background on limitations put on Text Alternatives subgroup
14:37:46 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: and could have different scenarios for different types
14:37:53 <Lauriat> qv?
14:38:26 <Chuck> ack Mi
14:38:50 <Chuck> ack Jea
14:38:50 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to give background on limitations put on Text Alternatives subgroup
14:38:51 <janina> MichaelC: understood at TPAC that user needs were high level; and the functional needs the different ways of meeting for various individuals
14:39:50 <janina> jspellman: recalls exercise of writing sample guidelines ... had artificial constraints on text alternatives because we were trying to stay as close as possible to 2.x
14:40:56 <jeanne> WCAG to Silver Outline Map -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/
14:41:50 <janina> Lauriat: so recalls our old attempt to group mapping 2.x; and we did it before we were clerar on how to express user needs
14:42:39 <janina> Lauriat: first grouping has nontext content; label and name so alt text for image matches accessible name so can be voice activated
14:44:18 <janina> jspellman: so reverse engineer but also find original needs once we find that doc?
14:45:09 <janina> jspellman: so start with errors?
14:45:19 <janina> Lauriat: only concern is that it's a lot
14:46:08 <janina> jspellman: looks for visual contrast
14:46:09 <jeanne> Visual Contrast of Text -> https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#visual-contrast-of-text
14:46:18 <jeanne> Outcome: Provides adequate luminance contrast between background and text colors to make the text easy to read.
14:46:44 <janina> jspellman: has one method
14:46:54 <jeanne> Method -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2022/outcomes/luminance-contrast-between-background-and-text
14:47:59 <janina> Lauriat: so new approach is making text easy to read vs how that's achieved
14:48:13 <Wilco> q+
14:48:15 <janina> janina: good because some users will want less contrast
14:48:39 <janina> Wilco: notes color blindness component for luminocity
14:48:48 <SuzanneTaylor> q+
14:48:54 <Chuck> ack wil
14:49:13 <Chuck> ack suz
14:49:22 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: errors one may help ...
14:49:34 <jeanne> Use Cases for Visual Contrast -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Visual_Contrast_of_Text_Subgroup#Use_Cases_Defined
14:50:26 <janina> SuzanneTaylor: so errors could say users need instructions/features to avoid errors
14:51:11 <janina> Lauriat: believe Wilco's specificity is what we need
14:52:38 <janina> jspellman: notes use cases for visual did different types of text content
14:53:32 <janina> jspellman: ansilary text; non text elements where text within is not covered
14:53:39 <janina> jspellman: jeanne continues to read breakdowns
14:54:57 <janina> jspellman: Asks whether original analysis covered this?
14:55:05 <SuzanneTaylor> q+ to say these are similar to the errors group's list of "error flows"
14:55:10 <janina> Chuck: no, though don't recall details
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14:55:59 <Chuck> Chuck:  We did the analysis, but we didn't follow the prescribed process, we chose our own path, and I think it would have been of great value to have followed Silver's recommendations.
14:56:09 <janina> jspellman: suggests to try this process guided by our errors people next time
14:56:13 <Lauriat> ack SuzanneTaylor
14:56:13 <Zakim> SuzanneTaylor, you wanted to say these are similar to the errors group's list of "error flows"
14:57:32 <ToddL> Thank you everyone, have a great weekend!
14:57:59 <Makoto> Thank you all. Bye!
14:58:19 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
14:58:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/30-silver-minutes.html janina
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