IRC log of silver on 2022-09-30
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:44:30 [RRSAgent]
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- 13:44:30 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/30-silver-irc
- 13:44:33 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 13:44:33 [Zakim]
- Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
- 13:45:37 [Lauriat]
- agenda+ Stand up temporary equity group https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/temp_equity_group/q/ survey
- 13:45:39 [Lauriat]
- agenda+ Writing outcomes as user needs
- 13:45:44 [Lauriat]
- Present+
- 13:55:05 [Chuck]
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- 13:55:28 [jeanne]
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- 13:55:39 [Wilco]
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- 13:56:12 [kirkwood]
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- 13:57:38 [ToddL]
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- 13:58:01 [ToddL]
- present+
- 13:58:18 [Chuck]
- present+
- 13:58:18 [jeanne]
- agenda?
- 13:58:29 [Chuck]
- agenda?
- 13:58:34 [janina]
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- 13:58:37 [janina]
- present+
- 13:58:44 [jeanne]
- present+
- 14:00:16 [Rachael]
- present+
- 14:00:32 [Lauriat]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List
- 14:01:26 [maryjom]
- present+
- 14:01:55 [sarahhorton]
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- 14:02:02 [sarahhorton]
- present+
- 14:02:02 [ToddL]
- I am mobile and cannot turn on my microphone
- 14:02:34 [ToddL]
- Apologies, I cannot scribe today.
- 14:03:07 [Makoto]
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- 14:03:15 [janina]
- scribe+ janina
- 14:03:18 [Makoto]
- present+
- 14:03:32 [janina]
- zakim, next item
- 14:03:32 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- Stand up temporary equity group https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/temp_equity_group/q/ survey -- taken up [from Lauriat]
- 14:03:57 [jeanne]
- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/temp_equity_group/?login
- 14:04:20 [janina]
- jspellman: Setting up temporary group to develop approach for equity
- 14:05:08 [janina]
- jspellman: Initial group raised excellent issues which were discussed at TPAC, though not all actually impact WCAG3
- 14:05:49 [janina]
- jspellman: We did not reach consensus on next steps during TPAC; therefore this new group will look at what to do next
- 14:06:06 [Azlan]
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- 14:06:08 [kirkwood]
- present+
- 14:06:25 [janina]
- jspellman: Invites responses in WBS and now ...
- 14:06:34 [janina]
- zakim, next item
- 14:06:34 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- Writing outcomes as user needs -- taken up [from Lauriat]
- 14:06:47 [Poornima_]
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- 14:06:48 [JenniferS]
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- 14:06:51 [JenniferS]
- present+
- 14:07:03 [Azlan]
- present+
- 14:07:05 [Poornima_]
- present+
- 14:08:01 [janina]
- jspellman: Notes last week's survey didn't sufficiently populate all the proposed new subgroups
- 14:08:17 [SuzanneTaylor]
- present+
- 14:08:25 [janina]
- jspellman: So decided to proceed via framing user needs as outcomes
- 14:09:31 [janina]
- jspellman: Discussed from perspective of Errors Subgroup spreadsheet
- 14:09:53 [janina]
- jspellman: So, will attempt to develop to determine whether this approach will work
- 14:10:58 [jeanne]
- Examples of Needs as a NOrmative layer -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pC13dvHXw75siLmvq9QvUf-8lzniT5TDoJ0GfZDpUa8/
- 14:11:51 [janina]
- jspellman: Not functional needs because too difficult to test, though they are useful from other perspectives, e.g. organizing pwd coverage
- 14:12:16 [shadi_]
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- 14:12:25 [janina]
- jspellman: So, these are not the user needs in the functional needs doc, but rather our previous work on user needs
- 14:13:36 [janina]
- jspellman: points to inventory
- 14:13:50 [jeanne]
- User Flows Inventory -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Fix0uwC0vODgiKl09lMF77FMdd52u64KG9_-N86r4UE/
- 14:14:29 [janina]
- jspellman: But, I was not in this group; so, perhaps Sarah or Todd might discuss how this was developed?
- 14:14:42 [janina]
- jspellman: Sorry about no warning!
- 14:15:04 [janina]
- sarahhorton: Can start though have hard stop at the bottom of the hour
- 14:16:06 [janina]
- sarahhorton: Recollection is that errors not originally included, but an important concept to capture
- 14:16:21 [janina]
- sarahhorton: So we developed several scenarios
- 14:16:53 [janina]
- sarahhorton: e.g. "file not found" -- 404
- 14:17:28 [janina]
- sarahhorton: a typo in form filling and no clear guidance as to what field is malformed
- 14:18:11 [janina]
- sarahhorton: We described user action and system response followed by user's response to the system message; which sometimes is "give up!"
- 14:18:47 [janina]
- sarahhorton: We also mapped to severity because all users may need to overcome such issues
- 14:20:09 [janina]
- sarahhorton: e.g. error on submit -- but no helpful error message; maybe no message even
- 14:20:41 [janina]
- sarahhorton: user needs to know what specifically is malformed; and how best and most quickly to correct
- 14:21:08 [janina]
- q+
- 14:21:39 [janina]
- sarahhorton: notes that colorization is a common means to present this, but that doesn't work for all users
- 14:22:52 [jeanne]
- ack jan
- 14:23:13 [Chuck]
- janina: I want to capture an option and get responses. This might be an application for a spec from APA, this may be appropriate as a simplificiation. Show me the fields where there's a problem and hide the rest.
- 14:23:32 [Chuck]
- Janina: I would find that helpful rather than using color. I wonder if it could get capture and added to use cases.
- 14:23:43 [ToddL]
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- 14:23:43 [Chuck]
- s/simpificiation/simplification/
- 14:24:00 [ToddL]
- I don’t have anything to add, Sarah.
- 14:25:13 [janina]
- jspellman: So, captured -- but question can we turn these user needs into normative specification in WCAG3
- 14:26:15 [Chuck]
- Janina: We are looking for new use cases, and we had interesting evaluation from TAG.
- 14:26:37 [janina]
- sarahhorton: Notes our notations for making our doc more useful
- 14:26:53 [Chuck]
- Thanks Sarah!
- 14:26:57 [janina]
- sarahhorton: whereas Janina was talking about a possible technology that might help with the error situation
- 14:27:01 [janina]
- janina: Correct
- 14:27:58 [Lauriat]
- q+ to propose drafting more before trying to decide normative vs. informative
- 14:28:13 [janina]
- jspellman: What's most helpful now? Continue on the erorrs path? Or to discuss normative vs informative
- 14:28:16 [Rachael]
- q+
- 14:28:27 [Chuck]
- ack Lau
- 14:28:27 [Zakim]
- Lauriat, you wanted to propose drafting more before trying to decide normative vs. informative
- 14:28:33 [janina]
- Lauriat: would probably help to draft more of these to answer that
- 14:29:26 [janina]
- Lauriat: at this point normative vs informative probably too early
- 14:29:48 [Wilco]
- +1
- 14:29:54 [Chuck]
- Janina: I think we want the informative vs normative conversation, but we need to cover the territory first.
- 14:30:06 [jeanne]
- ack racha
- 14:30:10 [shadi]
- present+
- 14:30:25 [shadi]
- RRSAgent, pointer?
- 14:30:25 [RRSAgent]
- See https://www.w3.org/2022/09/30-silver-irc#T14-30-25
- 14:30:26 [janina]
- Rachael: Believe we got as far as we could at this point at TPAC on the normative conversation
- 14:30:30 [Lauriat]
- Maybe starting with https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#guidelines outcomes?
- 14:31:05 [Lauriat]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2022/outcomes/text-alternative-available
- 14:31:31 [Rachael]
- Where we got to on Normative vs. Informative: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WcOWm75D5ocd6gUhfsnSz-XK7lcNKW4EnOiHADTq-fI/edit#heading=h.76yx9j1lbp74
- 14:31:32 [janina]
- Lauriat: suggesting exercise of rewriting outcomes as user needs; above is a close to done
- 14:31:53 [janina]
- jspellman: could also look at the original list each group did
- 14:32:05 [janina]
- jspellman: e.g. text alternatives from Makoto's group
- 14:32:42 [Chuck]
- +1 interested in trying both
- 14:32:45 [Lauriat]
- +1
- 14:32:46 [janina]
- jspellman: Maybe do both and see how things match up with original user needs?
- 14:32:51 [SuzanneTaylor]
- +1
- 14:33:04 [janina]
- jspellman: So, text alternatives ...
- 14:33:10 [jeanne]
- Outcome: Provides text alternatives for non-text content for user agents and assistive technologies. This allows users who are unable to perceive and / or understand the non-text content to determine its meaning.
- 14:34:02 [Chuck]
- Janina: Meaning and utility? If it's a control what it's good for.
- 14:34:10 [Chuck]
- Jeanne: Can you clarify?
- 14:34:29 [Lauriat]
- q+ to check my understanding of the granularity
- 14:34:42 [Chuck]
- Janina: A picture needs a description, but a control needs a description of what it does. What's the outcome of hitting a button, for example. Meaning or utility. An expansion. That's close to a useful defintion.
- 14:35:15 [janina]
- Lauriat: raises level of granularity question here ...
- 14:35:57 [jeanne]
- WCAG to Silver Outline Map -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/
- 14:36:08 [MichaelC]
- q+
- 14:36:10 [janina]
- Lauriat: had thought a higher level; but maybe Janina's notion is correct. Thoughts?
- 14:36:24 [Chuck]
- ack Lau
- 14:36:24 [Zakim]
- Lauriat, you wanted to check my understanding of the granularity
- 14:36:41 [janina]
- SuzanneTaylor: we had error flow; why are you getting an error; what's the UI like?
- 14:37:18 [janina]
- SuzanneTaylor: in this case might be a few classes of images
- 14:37:27 [jeanne]
- q+ to give background on limitations put on Text Alternatives subgroup
- 14:37:46 [janina]
- SuzanneTaylor: and could have different scenarios for different types
- 14:37:53 [Lauriat]
- qv?
- 14:38:26 [Chuck]
- ack Mi
- 14:38:50 [Chuck]
- ack Jea
- 14:38:50 [Zakim]
- jeanne, you wanted to give background on limitations put on Text Alternatives subgroup
- 14:38:51 [janina]
- MichaelC: understood at TPAC that user needs were high level; and the functional needs the different ways of meeting for various individuals
- 14:39:50 [janina]
- jspellman: recalls exercise of writing sample guidelines ... had artificial constraints on text alternatives because we were trying to stay as close as possible to 2.x
- 14:40:56 [jeanne]
- WCAG to Silver Outline Map -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/
- 14:41:50 [janina]
- Lauriat: so recalls our old attempt to group mapping 2.x; and we did it before we were clerar on how to express user needs
- 14:42:39 [janina]
- Lauriat: first grouping has nontext content; label and name so alt text for image matches accessible name so can be voice activated
- 14:44:18 [janina]
- jspellman: so reverse engineer but also find original needs once we find that doc?
- 14:45:09 [janina]
- jspellman: so start with errors?
- 14:45:19 [janina]
- Lauriat: only concern is that it's a lot
- 14:46:08 [janina]
- jspellman: looks for visual contrast
- 14:46:09 [jeanne]
- Visual Contrast of Text -> https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#visual-contrast-of-text
- 14:46:18 [jeanne]
- Outcome: Provides adequate luminance contrast between background and text colors to make the text easy to read.
- 14:46:44 [janina]
- jspellman: has one method
- 14:46:54 [jeanne]
- Method -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2022/outcomes/luminance-contrast-between-background-and-text
- 14:47:59 [janina]
- Lauriat: so new approach is making text easy to read vs how that's achieved
- 14:48:13 [Wilco]
- q+
- 14:48:15 [janina]
- janina: good because some users will want less contrast
- 14:48:39 [janina]
- Wilco: notes color blindness component for luminocity
- 14:48:48 [SuzanneTaylor]
- q+
- 14:48:54 [Chuck]
- ack wil
- 14:49:13 [Chuck]
- ack suz
- 14:49:22 [janina]
- SuzanneTaylor: errors one may help ...
- 14:49:34 [jeanne]
- Use Cases for Visual Contrast -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Visual_Contrast_of_Text_Subgroup#Use_Cases_Defined
- 14:50:26 [janina]
- SuzanneTaylor: so errors could say users need instructions/features to avoid errors
- 14:51:11 [janina]
- Lauriat: believe Wilco's specificity is what we need
- 14:52:38 [janina]
- jspellman: notes use cases for visual did different types of text content
- 14:53:32 [janina]
- jspellman: ansilary text; non text elements where text within is not covered
- 14:53:39 [janina]
- jspellman: jeanne continues to read breakdowns
- 14:54:57 [janina]
- jspellman: Asks whether original analysis covered this?
- 14:55:05 [SuzanneTaylor]
- q+ to say these are similar to the errors group's list of "error flows"
- 14:55:10 [janina]
- Chuck: no, though don't recall details
- 14:55:55 [ToddL]
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- 14:55:59 [Chuck]
- Chuck: We did the analysis, but we didn't follow the prescribed process, we chose our own path, and I think it would have been of great value to have followed Silver's recommendations.
- 14:56:09 [janina]
- jspellman: suggests to try this process guided by our errors people next time
- 14:56:13 [Lauriat]
- ack SuzanneTaylor
- 14:56:13 [Zakim]
- SuzanneTaylor, you wanted to say these are similar to the errors group's list of "error flows"
- 14:57:32 [ToddL]
- Thank you everyone, have a great weekend!
- 14:57:59 [Makoto]
- Thank you all. Bye!
- 14:58:19 [janina]
- rrsagent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/30-silver-minutes.html janina
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