16:40:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:40:04 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/29-aria-irc
16:40:07 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:40:08 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:40:09 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:40:09 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:40:09 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20220929T130000
16:40:09 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:40:09 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3CbrUT5
16:40:10 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3UKS8CW
16:40:12 <agendabot> agenda+ Proposal: process Deep Dive next week!
16:40:15 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Placeholder for next meeting discussion: Changing "2F.i" to "2F" in step 2H https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/169
16:40:18 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69
16:40:21 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+label%3A1.3-Blocking
16:40:32 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:59:05 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:01:32 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #aria
17:01:35 <spectranaut_> chair: spectranaut
17:01:43 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
17:01:57 <spectranaut_> chair: spectranaut_
17:02:22 <pkra> scribe: pkra
17:02:41 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
17:02:56 <Adam_Page> present+
17:04:27 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:04:43 <CurtBellew> present+
17:04:47 <scotto> present+
17:04:47 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:04:47 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3CbrUT5 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:04:50 <BGaraventa> BGaraventa has joined #aria
17:04:50 <pkra> present+
17:05:02 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
17:05:15 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:05:39 <pkra> spectranaut: aria#1817 about aria-owns
17:06:12 <pkra> jnurthen: first bit could use work, the rest seems already covered in the spec.
17:06:15 <pkra> ... label clarification
17:06:45 <pkra> spectranaut: there's a 1.3 blocking issue on aria-owns. maybe related?
17:07:16 <pkra> ...  #1161 about owned by
17:07:18 <aaronlev> There are some good notes on now Google avoids problems with aria-owns here
17:07:19 <aaronlev> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jhztcbvUWS4_QGtKmWMxVBLnMkl5ZAAqRCVTcLfdl4o/edit#heading=h.4qp85atck7yr
17:07:24 <pkra> jnurthen: related but not same.
17:07:52 <pkra> aaron: I added link in IRC on chrome's aria-owns implementation details.
17:08:08 <jcraig> present+
17:08:16 <pkra> ... more about interaction with HTML.
17:09:01 <pkra> jnurthen: first part would be 1.3 // clarification.
17:09:10 <pkra> spectranaut: assign to jnurthen, wait to hear back.
17:09:50 <jcraig> s/1.3/1.3ed/
17:09:58 <pkra> aaron: chrome is pretty complicated about, e.g., changing ids, removing elements with id, multiple elements with same ID
17:10:15 <pkra> jnurthen: maybe a note "there are limitations, known issues etc"
17:10:34 <pkra> aaron: the doc is more for other user agents since our implementation seems a good basis.
17:11:01 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:11:01 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3UKS8CW -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:11:35 <pkra> spectranaut: core-aam#142
17:11:53 <pkra> ... @jcraig please review.
17:12:31 <pkra> ... core-aam#140, mapping update.
17:12:50 <pkra> ... aria#1816 editorial
17:13:18 <pkra> jnurthen: question for screenreader users about the notes in the spec.
17:13:27 <pkra> ... headings are just "note"
17:13:48 <pkra> ... in respec, you can add a title attribute to use as part of the heading. could add context
17:14:09 <pkra> bryan: that would be an improvement
17:14:49 <pkra> jcraig: respec adds this, so could we automate something like "note for section ..."
17:15:07 <pkra> jnurthen: if there's more than one, we'd need a bit more but yes, I'll file an issue
17:15:14 <pkra> jcraig: seems generally useful
17:15:52 <pkra> spectranaut: aria#1814 draft PR
17:16:25 <pkra> jnurthen: made one change but: do we really want to do this?
17:16:46 <pkra> ... phrasing content describes a things in HTML that we might not want to include in ARIA
17:16:58 <pkra> ... so maybe we want something completely different after all.
17:17:46 <pkra> jcraig: I didn't like the name but would be ok if it matched HTML
17:17:57 <pkra> scotto: really "textyMcTextFace"
17:18:06 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:18:06 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Proposal: process Deep Dive next week! -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:28 <pkra> spectranaut: follow up to TPAC discussions.
17:18:40 <pkra> ... come up with some suggestions.
17:20:20 <pkra> siri: is there info on the results from TPAC?
17:20:25 <pkra> spectranaut: yes, email was sent to list.
17:20:38 <pkra> jcraig: can make Oct 6.
17:20:43 <pkra> bryan:  same.
17:21:01 <pkra> jnurthen: sarah and scotto would be good.
17:21:56 <pkra> spectranaut: any other topics?
17:22:04 <pkra> jcraig: had some internal discussion about aria-actions
17:22:32 <pkra> ... heuristic detection seems implementable.
17:22:39 <pkra> ... some author techniques might interfere
17:23:04 <pkra> ... maybe a deep dive might be useful to gather implementation interest.
17:23:23 <pkra> aaron: I haven't looked in detail yet. We should get James Teh, Matt King to look at it.
17:23:49 <pkra> jcraig: idea is aria-action=idrefs. then AT will generate synth click events for them.
17:23:57 <pkra> aaron: sounds like a good deep dive.
17:24:45 <pkra> spectranaut: aaron, please take a look and say if you want a deep dive
17:25:06 <pkra> ... but matt and jamie are important
17:25:49 <jcraig> Draft PR https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1805
17:25:51 <pkra> jcraig: issues are ...
17:26:01 <pkra> ... most of the discussion is in #1440
17:26:10 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440
17:27:22 <pkra> mattking: at tpac we talked about needing some example web pages, screenreader expectations, experimental implementation.
17:27:34 <pkra> jcraig: we'd ship it behind a flag to begin with in any case
17:27:36 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:27:36 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Placeholder for next meeting discussion: Changing "2F.i" to "2F" in step 2H https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/169 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:28:41 <pkra> bryan: step 2h deals with recursion process. When it recurses, it should check if name-from-content is supported.
17:28:49 <pkra> ... then continues into sub steps of process.
17:29:01 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:29:15 <pkra> ... it was pointed out, it was bypassing the process and going directly.
17:29:36 <pkra> ... bypassing all conditional statements
17:29:59 <pkra> ... no handling of circumstances where you wouldn't want name-from-content
17:30:23 <pkra> ... e.g., heading, button, opens up a menu. Then all of the contents of the menu would be part of the heading name.
17:30:27 <jamesn> q+
17:30:37 <pkra> ... without checking if name-from-content was supported.
17:30:44 <pkra> ... filed it at TPAC
17:31:03 <pkra> ... if someone knows the background to the previous change, that would be very helpful.
17:31:11 <pkra> spectranaut: change from 2017.
17:31:21 <pkra> ... linked on issue now.
17:31:24 <jamesn> q?
17:31:45 <pkra> jcraig: I have a related issue I filed a while back. We need to stop using numbered labels for steps.
17:32:06 <pkra> ... this is a good example. It's confusing, adding steps changes numbering.
17:32:23 <pkra> ... if the step was called "aria-labelledBy", then I'd know.
17:32:36 <pkra> ... if we use logical IDs, we might avoid such confusion.
17:32:59 <pkra> bryan: I like that idea. But for now, are we in agreement that this is how it's supposed to work.
17:33:46 <pkra> jnurthen: I don't think we can do all the checks. When checking child nodes, e.g., div doesn't have name but you still want the child text.
17:34:08 <pkra> bryan: I feel like the number of cases where it should be processed is less than those where it shouldn't.
17:34:24 <pkra> jnurthen: I disagree. spans and divs occure too frequently.
17:34:48 <pkra> ... if you rule those out, it will break a lot of stuff
17:35:10 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/139 Permalinks in computations should NOT use specific numbering in the link (because the numbering will change) #139
17:35:13 <pkra> mattking: it's about number of conditions in the algorithm, right?
17:35:13 <scotto> q+
17:35:32 <jamesn> ack me
17:35:34 <jamesn> q+
17:35:49 <jamesn> q?
17:36:01 <pkra> bryan: yes. I could put in logic that it's an element that's perceived.
17:36:23 <pkra> spectranaut: feels like there's something to discuss. Chrome has 2F implemented.
17:36:45 <pkra> jnurthen: not completely. aaron pointed me to code where for each role, it does different things, depending on the situation
17:37:00 <pkra> ... feels like this is closer to what we want to do
17:37:03 <jamesn> ack me
17:37:05 <jamesn> q/
17:37:18 <pkra> spectranaut: this would be a change affecting implementations
17:37:53 <pkra> ... so we need to clarify what they need to do.
17:38:09 <pkra> ... can we make this a PR?
17:38:34 <pkra> bryan: I can. But we need implemetors to give input on which conditions make sense.
17:38:38 <jamesn> q?
17:39:09 <jamesn> ack scotto
17:40:05 <pkra> scotto: is this essentially tyring to fix the problem of, e.g., anchor with article in it but article has no explicit name, so the link technically has no name.
17:40:07 <pkra> bryan: yes.
17:40:25 <pkra> scotto: have been working on this with teams a lot recently.
17:40:44 <pkra> ... it shouldn't stop if the article has no accessible name.
17:41:43 <pkra> bryan: right. it's hard to make a PR without knowing what should change.
17:41:49 <jamesn> is https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/128 not related to this?
17:41:56 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:42:27 <jamesn> see my comment here - https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/128#issuecomment-834864769
17:42:32 <pkra> siri: question on anchor containing an article. doesn't the text get used?
17:42:35 <jamesn> q+
17:42:53 <pkra> scotto: it isn't and that's the problem.
17:43:05 <pkra> .. the way the algorithm is right now, it won't.
17:43:50 <pkra> bryan: Reversely, say you have multiple options. should they all be part of the name? Probably not but right now they would.
17:44:21 <jamesn> / Get their own name from contents, or contribute to ancestors
17:44:21 <jamesn> examples button, checkbox, heading, link, switch, tab
17:44:21 <jamesn> // ----- No name from contents -------------------------
17:44:21 <jamesn> // These never have or contribute a name from contents, as they are
17:44:21 <jamesn> // containers for many subobjects. Superset of nameFrom:author ARIA roles.
17:44:22 <jamesn> examples alert, comment, grid, table, menu
17:44:22 <jamesn> // ----- Conditional: contribute to ancestor only, unless focusable -------
17:44:22 <jamesn> // Some objects can contribute their contents to ancestor names, but
17:44:22 <jamesn> // only have their own name if they are focusable
17:44:22 <jamesn> examples canvas, caption, details, footer, generic, list, listitem, paragraph
17:44:36 <pkra> jnurthen: acc-name#128 has the link I mentioned.
17:45:06 <pkra> ... some suggestions in that issue
17:45:34 <pkra> bryan: sounds good but we'd need an implementor to draft the PR in spec language
17:45:49 <pkra> spectranaut: maybe start with what Chrome's doing?
17:45:55 <pkra> jnurthen: I believe firefox is similar.
17:46:04 <pkra> ... then we can get more input
17:46:12 <jamesn> ack me
17:46:38 <pkra> mattking: is there something in the aria spec that separates these roles from another?
17:47:20 <pkra> jnurthen: maybe. perhaps instead of "named by content" could be "not only from author", getting us closer.
17:47:45 <pkra> mattking: feels like this logic needs to be a reflection of some characteristic in the aria specification.
17:48:07 <pkra> jnurthen: agreed. chrome's heuristic should identify _something_
17:48:32 <pkra> mattking: do we need an aria issue as well?
17:49:05 <pkra> jnurthen: I think it's an accname. if that feels like there's something missing from ARIA, then we file a cross issue.
17:50:17 <pkra> spectranaut: I'd suggest to go through #128, go through it, see if there's enough information on what Chrome does, then possibly suggest a spec change to accname.
17:50:27 <jcraig> q+
17:50:34 <pkra> ... then file an issue on aria
17:50:36 <pkra> bryan: will do.
17:50:41 <jcraig> ack me
17:51:27 <pkra> jcraig: bryan, could you ping me when it's a good time to make the label changes? It has to fit and avoid merge conflicts.
17:51:58 <pkra> bryan: will do.
17:51:59 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:51:59 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:52:50 <pkra> spectranaut: scott PR on core-aam, but also blocking issue from jcraig.
17:53:03 <scotto> correction:  html aam, not core aam
17:53:18 <pkra> s/core-aam/html-aam
17:54:10 <pkra> spectranaut: jcraig will make a few changes
17:54:37 <pkra> scotto: will take alignment with html aam,  2 PRs todo
17:54:59 <pkra> spectranaut: should be a simple check.
17:55:17 <pkra> scotto: I'll still have to remove the relevant lines
17:55:22 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:55:22 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+label%3A1.3-Blocking -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:56:34 <pkra> jnurthen: check if you're assigned. get to work :-)
17:57:06 <pkra> rss-agent, make minuets
17:57:10 <pkra> rss-agent, make minutes
17:57:18 <jamesn> zakim, end meeting
17:57:18 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Adam_Page, CurtBellew, scotto, pkra, MarkMcCarthy, jcraig
17:57:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:57:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/29-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:57:23 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jamesn; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:57:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
17:57:38 <pkra> RRSAgent, make minute
17:57:38 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minute', pkra.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:57:40 <pkra> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:57:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/29-aria-minutes.html pkra
18:06:06 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #aria
18:12:59 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria