IRC log of wot-profile on 2022-09-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

10:58:12 [RRSAgent]

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10:58:12 [RRSAgent]

logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/28-wot-profile-irc

10:58:16 [kaz]

meeting: WoT Profile

10:58:30 [McCool]

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11:00:36 [mlagally]

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11:01:07 [mlagally]

zakim, who is on the call?

11:01:07 [Zakim]

Present: (no one)

11:03:52 [kaz]

present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_Lagally, Michael_McCool

11:05:09 [Ege]

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11:05:26 [kaz]

chair: Lagally

11:06:10 [kaz]

present+ Ben_Francis

11:06:44 [Mizushima]

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11:07:58 [kaz]

present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima

11:08:30 [kaz]

present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch, Ege_Korkan

11:08:43 [sebastian]

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11:09:26 [kaz]

agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Architecture_WebConf#WoT_Architecture_.28Profile.29_-_Sept_28st.2C_2022

11:10:20 [kaz]

scribenick: kaz

11:10:33 [kaz]

zakim, who is on the call?

11:10:33 [Zakim]

Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_Lagally, Michael_McCool, Ben_Francis, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Ege_Korkan

11:10:43 [kaz]

topic: Agenda

11:10:55 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Architecture_WebConf#WoT_Architecture_.28Profile.29_-_Sept_28st.2C_2022 Agenda for today

11:11:00 [kaz]

ml: (goes through the agenda)

11:11:18 [kaz]

... Testfest next week is important

11:11:23 [kaz]

... anything to be added?

11:11:51 [kaz]

ek: wondering about how to test the Profile spec

11:12:06 [kaz]

mm: should be discussed during the Testing call later

11:12:46 [kaz]

ml: also we have 10 mins for testing prep during this call

11:12:51 [kaz]

topic: Minutes

11:13:02 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2022/09/21-wot-profile-minutes.html Sep-21

11:13:22 [kaz]

ml: any problems?

11:13:49 [kaz]

(none)

11:13:52 [kaz]

approved

11:14:04 [kaz]

topic: Schedule

11:14:11 [kaz]

[[

11:14:12 [kaz]

Oct 3-6 Plugfest / Testfest for Profile 1.0

11:14:13 [kaz]

Oct 10-15 Incorporate Plugfest/Testfest results, prepare CR draft

11:14:13 [kaz]

2 - weeks review

11:14:13 [kaz]

CR transition End Oct

11:14:13 [kaz]

]]

11:14:20 [kaz]

mm: one correction

11:14:33 [kaz]

... 3-6 Oct for Testfest

11:14:52 [kaz]

... should be Tuesday till Friday

11:15:26 [kaz]

ml: meant to be Mon-Thu

11:15:43 [kaz]

(need to be fixed later)

11:15:46 [Ege]

q+

11:15:50 [kaz]

topic: Contributions

11:16:16 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 266

11:16:32 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/266 PR 266 - Refine sync vs. async action protocol binding - closes #259

11:16:52 [kaz]

ek: Daniel wants to talk about this, but a bit late due to conflicts

11:17:00 [kaz]

ml: lets talk about this later then

11:17:04 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 277

11:17:16 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/277 PR 277

11:17:27 [McCool]

q+

11:17:32 [kaz]

s/PR 277/PR 277 - remove http-webhook-profile-protocol-binding-general-2 assertion - closes issue #229/

11:17:34 [kaz]

ack e

11:18:05 [kaz]

ml: would propose we merge this

11:18:16 [kaz]

mm: we actually need assertion for each MUST

11:18:30 [kaz]

... should be careful about how to handle that

11:18:43 [kaz]

... capitalization for MUST would be important for assertions

11:18:52 [kaz]

... so I agree

11:19:04 [kaz]

ml: would merge this then

11:19:07 [kaz]

ek: ok

11:19:33 [kaz]

merged

11:19:54 [kaz]

q?

11:19:56 [kaz]

ack m

11:20:22 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 295

11:20:37 [kaz]

->https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/295 PR 295 - Prepare Testfest/Plugfest - informative assertion markup - generate manual.csv

11:20:56 [kaz]

ml: we have to work on the distinction

11:21:16 [kaz]

... rfc2119-assertion vs rfc2119-informative-assertion

11:21:18 [kaz]

mm: agree

11:22:04 [kaz]

ml: ok

11:22:23 [kaz]

... the point here is that we have an informative section within the WoT Profile 1.0 spec

11:23:14 [kaz]

... also generated manual.csv file for testig

11:23:18 [kaz]

s/testig/testing/

11:23:24 [benfrancis]

q?

11:23:27 [benfrancis]

q+

11:24:05 [kaz]

bf: want to check if all those marked as "rfc2119-informative-assertion" will be removed from the implementation report

11:24:34 [kaz]

... because I think it's too early to remove them from the implementation report

11:24:54 [kaz]

mm: implementation report defines the assertions

11:25:05 [sebastian]

q+

11:25:11 [kaz]

... and we need to provide test results for the assertions

11:25:13 [kaz]

ack b

11:25:23 [kaz]

... we should make the decision right away

11:25:32 [Ege]

+1 to ben

11:25:48 [kaz]

... the decision is going forward

11:25:59 [kaz]

bf: I think we need more evidence

11:26:32 [kaz]

... we're still guessing we would not get implementations for those items

11:26:38 [kaz]

s/items/features/

11:27:04 [kaz]

mm: technically, we can include all the features and remove them later, though

11:27:39 [kaz]

ml: from my viewpoint, we need to focus on test results during the Testfest next week

11:27:42 [dape]

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11:27:50 [kaz]

q+

11:28:11 [kaz]

... making the SSE section non-normative would make sense

11:28:36 [kaz]

bf: we can't tell those features could be supported until we actually test them

11:28:51 [Ege]

+1 to deferring

11:28:53 [kaz]

mm: we could do another PR to rebase this

11:29:02 [kaz]

... before finalize the spec

11:29:21 [kaz]

ml: if people prefer, I'm OK with deferring it until the Testfest

11:30:17 [kaz]

... what if I exclude the assertions within the assertion.csv file

11:30:24 [kaz]

mm: we can wait

11:30:26 [kaz]

ml: ok

11:30:39 [kaz]

present+ Daniel_Peintner

11:30:41 [kaz]

q?

11:30:50 [kaz]

q-

11:31:00 [kaz]

q- se

11:31:19 [kaz]

.. let's hold this until the Testfest

11:32:10 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 286

11:32:24 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/286 PR 286 - Clarify that href member of ActionStatus can be used by cancelaction - closes #283

11:33:02 [kaz]

ml: would like to merge this

11:33:04 [kaz]

merged

11:33:22 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 287

11:33:31 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/287 PR 287 - Consolidate date-time references to RFC 3339 - closes #276

11:33:41 [benfrancis]

q+

11:34:11 [kaz]

ml: changes requested

11:34:42 [kaz]

bf: note some timestamps which are valid ISO 8601 are not valid under RFC 3339, referencing ISO 8601 is not really enough.

11:35:05 [kaz]

ml: need more discusion

11:35:11 [kaz]

s/discusion/discussion/

11:35:15 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 288

11:35:37 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/288 PR 288 - Remove empty Semantic Annotations section

11:35:41 [kaz]

ml: any concerns?

11:35:43 [kaz]

(none)

11:35:45 [kaz]

merged

11:36:05 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 289

11:36:13 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/289 PR 289 - Remove Links section - closes #255

11:36:18 [kaz]

ml: kind of big PR

11:36:40 [Ege]

+1 to removing everything

11:36:51 [kaz]

mm: also wondering if we really want to remove all this

11:37:30 [kaz]

bf: Lagally asked me to apply the changes based on the issue 255

11:37:57 [kaz]

... it's difficult to define "support" here

11:38:27 [McCool]

q+

11:38:31 [sebastian]

q+

11:38:35 [kaz]

... we could leave the section, but the features are not implementable

11:38:39 [kaz]

ack b

11:39:07 [kaz]

ml: you could store the resources

11:39:28 [benfrancis]

q?

11:40:13 [kaz]

mm: the question of TD is that it's open-ended

11:40:15 [kaz]

ack m

11:40:19 [Ege]

q+

11:40:33 [benfrancis]

q+

11:40:35 [kaz]

... we should write an assertion for this

11:40:45 [kaz]

q?

11:40:47 [kaz]

ack s

11:41:09 [kaz]

sk: good example of Testfest's helping us understand it

11:41:18 [Ege]

+1 to sebastian

11:41:32 [kaz]

... unfortunately, not really confirmed yet

11:41:53 [kaz]

ml: how to test PDF markup as a proper signal?

11:42:27 [kaz]

sk: we should provide some guideline

11:42:34 [kaz]

... not against Profile itself

11:42:58 [kaz]

... but it seems to me we're not ready to test the Profile spec

11:43:11 [kaz]

ml: understand your concern

11:43:45 [kaz]

... but we had and have similar problem with TD 1.0/1.1 as well

11:43:55 [kaz]

... we have to discuss what to be done

11:44:06 [kaz]

q|

11:44:12 [kaz]

s/q|//

11:44:13 [kaz]

q+

11:44:39 [kaz]

ack e

11:44:49 [kaz]

ek: PDF is a bad example

11:45:22 [kaz]

... if it can't be handled by some Consumer, can be ignored

11:45:52 [kaz]

mm: it's still useful for documentation purposes

11:46:07 [kaz]

... Profile is limiting the list of supported types

11:46:24 [kaz]

... making it clear is important here

11:47:10 [kaz]

ek: the purpose of the Profile spec is making it easier for developers to implement WoT systems

11:47:22 [kaz]

... how to decide the constraint?

11:47:41 [kaz]

ml: can you provide counter examples on what to be supported then?

11:48:24 [kaz]

... would suggest we continue the discussion on GitHub

11:49:00 [kaz]

-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-profile/#common-constraints-links fyi, 6.5 Links within the ED

11:49:05 [kaz]

q?

11:50:19 [kaz]

bf: agree with Ege

11:50:37 [kaz]

... the assertions say "Consumer MUST support..."

11:50:43 [kaz]

... also agree with McCool

11:51:05 [kaz]

... but don't think this section 6.5 Links would add anything for implementations

11:51:09 [kaz]

ack be

11:51:51 [kaz]

kaz: given the discussion so far, would suggest we defer this PR as well until Testfest

11:51:59 [kaz]

... and revisit this in 2 weeks

11:52:04 [kaz]

ml: agree

11:52:08 [kaz]

ack k

11:52:35 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 293

11:52:55 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/293 PR 293 - Allow security metadata on Forms - closes #292

11:53:22 [kaz]

ml: keep it open and ask for further review

11:53:31 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 294

11:53:46 [Ege]

q+

11:53:49 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/294 PR 294 - Make security bootstrapping mandatory - closes #250

11:53:55 [kaz]

ml: kind of big changes

11:54:00 [kaz]

... and need further review

11:54:16 [dape]

q+

11:54:18 [kaz]

q?

11:54:38 [kaz]

subtopic: PR 266 - revisited

11:54:44 [Ege]

ack e

11:54:45 [benfrancis]

q?

11:54:46 [Ege]

cak d

11:54:47 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/266 PR 266 - Refine sync vs. async action protocol binding - closes #259

11:54:52 [kaz]

ack d

11:54:53 [Ege]

ack d

11:54:58 [kaz]

s/cak d//

11:56:12 [kaz]

-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-profile/266/3d4a8cb...benfrancis:d9a65b0.html#http-basic-profile-protocol-binding-invokeaction 7.2.2.1 invokeaction

11:56:46 [McCool]

(time check - need to end on time, main call)

11:56:47 [kaz]

ml: what is the conflict with TD?

11:57:00 [benfrancis]

q+

11:57:14 [kaz]

q+

11:58:31 [kaz]

dp: if I'm a Consumer, would expect to get the boolean within the response as well

11:59:03 [kaz]

ml: this PR fixes the problem, doesn't it?

11:59:22 [kaz]

dp: only for synchronous

11:59:45 [kaz]

bf: what it doesn't fix is asynchronous cases

11:59:59 [kaz]

s/cases/case/

12:00:04 [McCool]

q?

12:00:15 [kaz]

... it's still a bit ambiguous within the TD spec

12:00:17 [kaz]

ack be

12:01:19 [kaz]

ack k

12:01:38 [benfrancis]

See https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1665

12:02:42 [kaz]

kaz: I had been objecting to add the sync/async options to the Thing Description spec itself, but that was added already

12:03:00 [kaz]

... anyway, Profile and TD should be consistent with each other

12:03:11 [kaz]

... and also we still need to add clarification to TD spec

12:03:49 [kaz]

... we should be aware of those points, though merging this PR itself is OK

12:03:59 [kaz]

ml: would merge this PR itself

12:04:15 [kaz]

... and continue the discussion on TD spec, and also consistency check

12:04:24 [kaz]

merged

12:04:33 [kaz]

[adjourned]

12:04:33 [kaz]

rrsagent, make log public

12:04:37 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

12:04:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/28-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz

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14:31:18 [Zakim]

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