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13:51:14 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/22-wcag2ict-irc
13:51:16 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:51:17 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
13:51:36 <maryjom> meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:51:52 <maryjom> Chair: Mary_Jo_Mueller
13:52:19 <maryjom> Regrets: Cara_Henderson
13:52:53 <maryjom> Agenda+ Wiki updates
13:53:11 <maryjom> Agenda+ Questions regarding this meeting's preparation work
13:53:31 <maryjom> agenda+ Review survey results from the work statement review
13:53:49 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #wcag2ict
13:53:59 <maryjom> agenda+ Ways we might work - making sure all have access, can work effectively
13:54:00 <Chuck> agenda?
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14:00:27 <Chuck> present+
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14:00:35 <maryjom> present+
14:00:36 <bruce_bailey> present+
14:00:38 <Devanshu> present+
14:00:43 <BryanTrogdon> present+
14:00:43 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
14:00:44 <ThorstenKatzmann> present+
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14:01:03 <FernandaBonnin> present+
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14:01:26 <LauraBMiller> present+
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14:01:45 <ShawnT> present+
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14:01:58 <bruce_bailey> scribe: bruce_bailey
14:03:18 <bruce_bailey> q+ to note USAB SSTM under ADA
14:04:12 <bruce_bailey> https://federalregister.gov/d/2022-20470
14:04:44 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:04:44 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to note USAB SSTM under ADA
14:05:00 <bruce_bailey> Bruce:  USAB posted ANPRM on SSTM under ADA
14:05:26 <bruce_bailey> zakim, take up item 1
14:05:26 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Wiki updates -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:05:49 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki
14:05:52 <olivia-hogan-stark> olivia-hogan-stark has joined #wcag2ict
14:05:53 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: I made updates based on conversations from last week
14:06:48 <GreggVan> present+
14:06:55 <olivia-hogan-stark> present+
14:06:57 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: more links on home page:  work statement, participants list, link to older work David MacDonald drafted...
14:07:31 <bruce_bailey> ... I also made my suggested edits to that using track changes...
14:07:38 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
14:08:08 <bruce_bailey> ... neither of these reviewed by AG WG, but my own impression is that these are not controversial...
14:08:31 <pday_> pday_ has joined #wcag2ict
14:08:45 <Chuck> q?
14:08:59 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
14:08:59 <bruce_bailey> ... I also included some links and references for starting points, for example A versus AAA, to help participants work efficiently.
14:09:05 <bruce_bailey> ... feed back welcom.
14:09:11 <bruce_bailey> Zakim, take up item 2
14:09:11 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Questions regarding this meeting's preparation work -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:09:45 <Chuck> +1 I linked
14:10:14 <bruce_bailey> maryjom:  Administrative, last week asked people to register for GitHub and link to W3C account.
14:10:34 <bruce_bailey> ... that facilitates work.  That seems to be progressing.
14:10:48 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: Also you were asked to review Code of Ethics.
14:10:52 <Chuck> q+
14:10:52 <bruce_bailey> Any Qs?
14:11:08 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:11:26 <bruce_bailey> Chuck:  Just a comment, that we have new individuals here who some of this might be new for...
14:11:44 <bruce_bailey> ... But these are same as W3C generally or AG WG generally.
14:11:48 <Sam> q+
14:11:56 <Chuck> ack Sam
14:12:17 <bruce_bailey> Sam Ogami:  I am having some trouble with links.
14:12:31 <Chuck> I have noted it down, and we will address outside this meeting
14:12:38 <bruce_bailey> Judy and Mary Jo will sort after meeting.
14:12:48 <bruce_bailey> zakim, take up item 3
14:12:48 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review survey results from the work statement review -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:12:58 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-work-statement/results
14:13:32 <bruce_bailey> maryjom:  Review responses, WS draft is public facing.
14:13:35 <maryjom> Work statement: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/wcag2ict/work-statement
14:14:14 <bruce_bailey> Mary Jo shares screen for reviewing results.
14:14:33 <bruce_bailey> Questions asked on each section of draft WS.
14:14:47 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: I have incorporated editorial into pull request
14:14:55 <bruce_bailey> q+ for PR # ?
14:15:32 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: Several minor editorials, no comments on objectives
14:15:50 <bruce_bailey> ... getting into substantive comments for scope.
14:16:05 <Chuck> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2682/files
14:16:27 <bruce_bailey> ... GreggV noted in survey that Understanding updates from last time was valuable
14:16:29 <bruce_bailey> q-
14:16:34 <Anastasia> present+
14:16:56 <bruce_bailey> GreggV:  I should have recommended that we forward feedback to AGWG
14:17:32 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: Agreed, we would file issues as is the process now.  Do we need to change work statement?
14:17:57 <bruce_bailey> GreggV:  I think it should be in our list of activities this time.
14:18:21 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: That work was not in WS last time, but we did pick up things.
14:18:59 <bruce_bailey> Judy:  Lets go on, and I will make a suggestion if it seems needed.
14:19:09 <bruce_bailey> GreggVan: Agreed we picked up last time.
14:19:14 <Chuck> +1 to performing the task but not listing it specifically in the work statement.
14:19:35 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: My preference would be to keep WS more focused.
14:19:57 <Chuck> I will scribe for Bruce if he wishes to participate in discussion.
14:20:24 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: Bruce asked in the survey if scoping might be for non-web content instead of non-web ICT
14:20:35 <Chuck> q+
14:20:37 <LauraBMiller> q+
14:20:38 <FernandaBonnin> q+
14:20:52 <bruce_bailey> maryjom:  Other feedback?
14:21:24 <Sam> q+
14:21:26 <bruce_bailey> GreggVan:  Tend to agree about hardware, but is it clear that content includes software?
14:21:47 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: I am a little concerned for edit throughout document
14:21:54 <maryjom> ack chuck
14:22:08 <bruce_bailey> Chuck:  I am not sure I understand concern, since it worked out last time.
14:22:25 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:22:27 <maryjom> ack LauraBMiller
14:22:42 <pday_> present+
14:22:55 <bruce_bailey> LauraBMiller: My second point followed up from Bruce's point.
14:22:58 <Chuck> ack Lau
14:23:16 <bruce_bailey> ... might we revisit hardware in a second round?
14:23:52 <bruce_bailey> ... Do we not want to include is it hardware, is it software, looks like closed systems
14:24:01 <GreggVan> q+
14:24:04 <Chuck> q+ to address Laura's question
14:24:10 <bruce_bailey> ... hard to tell where software ends and hardware begins
14:24:32 <BryanTrogdon> +1 - revisit/define what constitutes "non-web technologies" for the purposes of this Note or Statement
14:24:34 <bruce_bailey> ... I feel like it is part of the same question.
14:24:36 <maryjom> ack FernandaBonnin
14:25:10 <maryjom> ack sam
14:25:15 <bruce_bailey> FernandaBonnin: Replying to Bruce comment, it might imply we are not addressing software which we definitely can.
14:25:45 <Chuck> Bruce, this conversation has helped me understand.
14:25:53 <Chuck> I don't think you need to define now
14:25:55 <maryjom> ack bruce
14:26:00 <bruce_bailey> SamO:  When I hear non-web ICT, I think of all the kinds of ICT so I think it might be better to narrow the scope.
14:26:34 <Chuck> Bruce:  For mobile, we cover mobile apps, web pages, we don't cover mobile phones.  I think there's the same kind of distinction in WCAG2ICT generally from last time.
14:27:07 <maryjom> q+
14:27:18 <Chuck> Bruce:  I forgot that we had a strong statement not covering hardware.  This is exactly what we should have, and it's already there.  Maybe we should consider where we ended up last time instead of bouncing back and forth between what are software implications vs when it leaks into closed hardware.
14:27:57 <Chuck> Bruce:  It's a fine line, we already have the target area on touch screen, that kind of thing.  we are close to talking about hardware already.  As someone providing clarity in the fed space, it's routine to get questions about applying WCAG like screen contrast to hardware.
14:28:08 <Chuck> Bruce:  Even WCAG2ICT provides clarity that you shouldn't do that.
14:28:39 <Chuck> Bruce:  there's no reference in hardware section, but it keeps happening.  I keep getting questions about that.  I don't think it's constructive.  If the TF feels we can say something, it may make our work faster, and stronger.
14:28:44 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:28:58 <Chuck> back to you bruce
14:29:03 <Judy> q+
14:29:26 <bruce_bailey> GreggV:  I was thinking it might have some utility, but I have changed my mind because it is a pretty big shift from last time arround.
14:29:54 <bruce_bailey> ... the strong statement at the beginning is better than changing the scoping now
14:30:20 <Judy> q+ to comment on software-on-hardware
14:30:24 <bruce_bailey> .. even the software requirements are not clean when they apply or not...
14:30:45 <bruce_bailey> ... so the strong statement up front is exactly the best way to address this.
14:31:04 <bruce_bailey> ... I do not think we should make this change.
14:31:07 <LauraBMiller> q+ if we aren't talking about all software, can we add to scope a list or definition of to which software it does not apply?
14:31:23 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:31:23 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to address Laura's question
14:31:28 <bruce_bailey> ... There are aspects of closed products which we might effect, and some where we do not.
14:32:12 <bruce_bailey> Chuck:  This is a general statement about definitions.  The more tight the definition, it limits our ability to be comprehensive.
14:32:14 <maryjom> ack maryjom
14:32:30 <LauraBMiller> q+
14:32:49 <bruce_bailey> maryjom:  To Greggs point, if we change scope, we need to change title.
14:33:05 <Sam> q+
14:33:28 <bruce_bailey> ... As to closed products, we have EN 301 549 applying WCAG to those sort of things, so we should not forclose that possibiltiy.
14:33:47 <bruce_bailey> ... This update should address some of those things, so scope should not change.
14:33:50 <maryjom> ack judy
14:33:50 <Zakim> Judy, you wanted to comment on software-on-hardware
14:34:02 <maryjom> zakim, turn on timer
14:34:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'turn on timer', maryjom
14:34:36 <bruce_bailey> Judy:  Issue is complicated, so we need to figure out.
14:35:01 <pday_> q?
14:35:09 <bruce_bailey> ... statement seems like an exclusion, but balance of document does not read that way...
14:35:46 <bruce_bailey> ... standards harmonization is a principle driver for this work, and it is getting more complicated and not less
14:36:14 <bruce_bailey> ... there is a concern if AGWG does not address, some other group will step into that gap
14:36:33 <Chuck> q?
14:36:40 <bruce_bailey> ... for this thing we say, What are the implications for software on hardware?
14:36:53 <bruce_bailey> ... I do not think we should change name of group.
14:36:59 <maryjom> ack LauraBMiller
14:37:51 <bruce_bailey> LauraBMiller: My suggestion would be to add a bullet to the scope so we are all clear on terms and scope
14:38:00 <bruce_bailey> q+ to say dont change name
14:38:08 <maryjom> ack Sam
14:38:16 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: Please suggest language if you like.
14:38:56 <bruce_bailey> Sam: I agree with not changing title.  I would suggest tighter scope at beginning.
14:39:12 <Chuck> q+
14:39:14 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:39:14 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to say dont change name
14:39:20 <bruce_bailey> ... as manufacture, we get questions about applying wcag to hardware
14:39:41 <maryjom> ack chuck
14:39:42 <Chuck> Bruce:  I'm happy to have raised this, it's not a slam dunk, we should continue as we were, it worked last time, will probably work this time.
14:40:00 <ThorstenKatzmann> q+
14:40:27 <maryjom> ack ThorstenKatzmann
14:40:31 <bruce_bailey> Chuck:  I am hearing consensus to leave WS as it.  We might want to add to definition.
14:41:04 <Judy> zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
14:41:04 <Zakim> ok, Judy
14:41:15 <bruce_bailey> ThorstenKatzmann: Definitely keep the name, it is well known.  We need the text to point to.
14:41:52 <bruce_bailey> ... if concern for regulators miss using, we can provide that in guidance.
14:42:10 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: I am not seeing need to change WS at this time.
14:42:56 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: We also had question about AAA.  Might it not be in scope for WCAG2ICT?  Propose we leave it out.
14:43:06 <GreggVan> q+
14:43:13 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:43:55 <bruce_bailey> GreggVan: Last time, the AAA was deferred towards the end, we just ran out of time because there were external driver we were responsive to.
14:44:36 <bruce_bailey> ... I think it is appropriate to wait until end to see if we can address AAA or not.  So no need to foreclose the possibility now.
14:44:59 <bruce_bailey> ... with work done already, might be an easy lift near the end.
14:45:23 <Chuck> Judy, is there a command that stops "warning" about someone who may have stopped talking?
14:45:57 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: I will mention that AAA was in original scope.  Q about AAA was raised to AGWG and they recommended including AAA.
14:46:08 <FernandaBonnin> q
14:46:14 <bruce_bailey> ... I can be a later priority after other work.
14:46:17 <FernandaBonnin> q+
14:46:27 <maryjom> ack FernandaBonnin
14:46:48 <GreggVan> q+
14:47:04 <bruce_bailey> FernandaBonnin:  It is not a question if we have time or not, but rather it is important enough to include at the start.
14:47:30 <bruce_bailey> ... If we get to end, and have time, how would we communicate that AAA is not a requirement for non-web ICT?
14:47:34 <Judy> q?
14:47:46 <Judy> ack G
14:47:48 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:48:00 <Chuck> If there is a next person to ack.  When a queue ends and a chair continues running call, there's nobody to ack
14:48:08 <bruce_bailey> GreggVan: We are to talk about how it applies, not when or why...
14:48:48 <bruce_bailey> ... We should include AAA this time if at all possible, but as before, not say if AAA applies or should not apply.
14:49:21 <bruce_bailey> ... So I recommend that we keep in scope, hoping someone volunteers for first draft.
14:49:49 <Chuck> q+
14:49:57 <bruce_bailey> maryjom: I am not confident we have consensus on this point.
14:50:39 <bruce_bailey> ... Shadi suggested WCAG2ICT as W3C Statement instead of Note.
14:50:56 <dmontalvo> q+
14:51:14 <maryjom> ack chuck
14:51:29 <dmontalvo> q-
14:51:30 <bruce_bailey> ... We would not expect WCAG2ICT to be influence EN or 508 with regard to adopting AAA.
14:51:52 <bruce_bailey> Chuck:  I am going to suggest an in-group straw poll.
14:51:53 <dmontalvo> q+
14:51:54 <Judy> q+
14:52:13 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:52:16 <Chuck> oops, sorry, we skipped dmontalvo
14:52:51 <Chuck> ack Judy
14:53:08 <Chuck> dmontalvo should go next
14:53:09 <bruce_bailey> Judy:  I am would like to defer to EN groups because there are many things we would like to do, and focus on what we feel is the most important
14:53:21 <Chuck> scribe:  Chuck
14:53:40 <maryjom> ack dmontalvo
14:54:08 <Chuck> dmontalvo:  I think..  let's keep it as is, we may do it in the future.
14:54:29 <Chuck> dmontalvo:  Doing now would be out of scope.  Some individuals have specific needs in the AAA space.
14:54:45 <Chuck> ack Bru
14:55:13 <maryjom> Poll: Should we include AAA in the scope of work?
14:55:27 <Chuck> maryjom:  <constructing a poll>
14:56:03 <maryjom> Poll: Should we prioritize A and AA over AAA in the scope of work?
14:56:07 <Chuck> GV:  It's a lot of work to include AAA, I think we should not exclude it, and see if we have time to address it after our in scope work.
14:56:26 <bruce_bailey> q-
14:56:35 <Chuck> GV:  We have the work on everything up to AAA, the prep work is done.
14:57:26 <Chuck> chuck:  Let's think about the question for next meeting, as we only have a few minutes.
14:57:33 <GreggVan> suggesstion  --  we  poll to  "We should not exclude AAA from the scope"
14:58:05 <bruce_bailey> +1 to not exclude AAA from scope
14:58:11 <Chuck> GV:  I think we can agree that we not exclude it up front.
14:58:11 <BryanTrogdon> +1
14:58:13 <ShawnT> +1
14:58:13 <Chuck> +1
14:58:14 <Judy> friendly amendment -- but we should prioritize....
14:58:27 <GreggVan> +1
14:58:32 <Anastasia> +1
14:58:33 <ChrisLoiselle> +1
14:58:34 <Sam> -1
14:58:37 <FernandaBonnin> -1
14:58:39 <pday_> +1 to Judy's amendment - we should prioritize
14:58:42 <Devanshu> +1
14:58:44 <ThorstenKatzmann> -1
14:58:49 <Chuck> q+
14:58:55 <pday_> -1 to original proposal
14:59:02 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:59:07 <bruce_bailey> +0 to admendment -- because WS is okay as-is
14:59:20 <LauraBMiller> -1
14:59:24 <dmontalvo> 0, I do think "priority" should also be defined up front
14:59:48 <Chuck> maryjom:  We will continue this conversation and this item next meeting.
14:59:51 <GreggVan> q+
15:00:02 <Chuck> maryjom:  I'll have homework to offer.
15:00:05 <Chuck> ack G
15:00:06 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
15:00:54 <Chuck> GV:  Is it possible to take the 2 documents and do a poll up front for people have questions?  It might be that the work you've already done from 20%-80% of work off the table, because hypothetically everybody agrees.
15:01:00 <Chuck> times up.
15:01:06 <Chuck> I've another call.
15:01:14 <bruce_bailey> rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/22-wcag2ict-minutes.html bruce_bailey
15:04:00 <bruce_bailey> s/... I can be a later priority after other work./... it can be a later priority after other work.
15:12:33 <bruce_bailey> zakim, end meeting
15:12:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Chuck, maryjom, bruce_bailey, Devanshu, BryanTrogdon, ChrisLoiselle, ThorstenKatzmann, FernandaBonnin, LauraBMiller, ShawnT, GreggVan,
15:12:36 <Zakim> ... olivia-hogan-stark, Daniel, Anastasia, pday_
15:12:36 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:12:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/22-wcag2ict-minutes.html Zakim
15:12:38 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, bruce_bailey; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:12:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:13:06 <bruce_bailey> RRSAgent, bye
15:13:06 <RRSAgent> I see no action items