IRC log of wot on 2022-09-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-wot-irc
12:01:46 [kaz]
meeting: OPC UA/W3C WoT
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present+ Michael_Lagally
12:03:09 [mlagally]
zakim, who is on the call?
12:03:09 [Zakim]
Present: Michael_Lagally
12:03:15 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Bern_Fiebiger, Dave_Raggett, Heiko_Fessenmayr, Erich_Barnstedt, Jim_Luth, Karl_Deiretsbacher, Kunihiko_Toumura
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12:03:34 [sebastian]
q+
12:03:41 [kaz]
present+ Michael_Koster, Michael_Lagally, Michael_McCool
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present+ Ege_Korkan
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present+ Dave_Raggett
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present+ Fady_Salama
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q-
12:04:26 [McCool]
scribenick: McCool
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present+ Daniel_Peintner
12:04:49 [McCool]
seb: thanks for joining this joint meeting, it has been a couple of months
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present+ Kevin_Brohan
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12:07:48 [McCool]
seb: agenda for today - welcome/scope/intros; technical discussion of OPC UA binding; next steps
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12:08:25 [McCool]
seb: intros to focus on new people: Bernd Fiebiger
12:08:30 [McCool]
... from Kuka
12:08:53 [McCool]
... have been involved in OPC UA information models, asset administration shell
12:09:13 [McCool]
... common approach for representing interfaces of entities
12:09:28 [McCool]
... HeikoFessenmayr
12:10:14 [McCool]
... have been working on analytic instrumentation - Agilent
12:10:46 [McCool]
s/HeikoFessenmayr/Heiko Fessenmayr/
12:11:00 [McCool]
seb: also Dave Raggett
12:11:18 [McCool]
... was involved in early work in WoT and OPC UA
12:11:41 [McCool]
topic: technical discussion
12:11:43 [McCool]
q+
12:12:00 [McCool]
seb: want to show you a first draft of what we would like to work on
12:12:33 [McCool]
... https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/liaisons/opcf/tech_reqs.md
12:12:56 [McCool]
... then later we need to discuss logistics, perhaps set up a regular meeting
12:13:19 [McCool]
karl: missing installation or initialization of WG
12:13:29 [McCool]
... for that we need a cooperation agreement
12:14:31 [McCool]
mm: I think the purpose of this meeting though is to get the charter of such a WG defined
12:15:06 [McCool]
seb: and also need a smaller group, there is a doodle, to get the chairs together to sort that out
12:15:40 [sebastian]
https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/liaisons/opcf/tech_reqs.md
12:15:42 [McCool]
seb: will now open tech_req.md
12:15:51 [McCool]
q+
12:16:50 [McCool]
seb: OPC UA already has a long journey, we've been talking about doing an OPC UA binding in WoT for at least a year
12:17:18 [McCool]
... and also many use cases that overlap with OPC UA
12:17:49 [mlagally]
https://www.w3.org/TR/wot-usecases/
12:17:52 [McCool]
... including a manufacturing scenario explicitly including OPC UA
12:18:07 [McCool]
... including integration with other standards such as MODBUS
12:18:44 [kaz]
i|including a m|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-usecases/#use-case-opc-ua-binding OPC UA use case|
12:18:54 [McCool]
... we need and OPC UA binding so we can onboard OPC UA endpoints
12:19:08 [McCool]
... as described in the scenario
12:19:35 [McCool]
... back to tech description, there are different aspects
12:20:20 [sebastian]
q?
12:21:25 [McCool]
... so that a WoT Consumer can treat OPC UA binding as a WoT Thing
12:21:30 [kaz]
q+
12:22:01 [kaz]
ack m
12:22:06 [McCool]
mm: also two points to resolve: 3, reverse binding; 4 binary or going through a gateway (e.g. HTTP protocol translator)
12:22:07 [sebastian]
ack k
12:22:43 [McCool]
kaz: agree with mm, need to discuss also PoCs but more important issue is W3C and WoT providing binding template specification
12:23:36 [sebastian]
q?
12:23:55 [McCool]
mm: again, this doc is what the technical goal is and what needs to be done, separately we can decide who does what organizationally
12:24:51 [McCool]
hf: in asset administration shell there is useful information about and OPC UA shell
12:25:22 [McCool]
... what is the communication protocol used? Is there a service in between that uses definitions out of submodel of AAS?
12:25:43 [McCool]
... context data, how to access a server, how to get the right nodes
12:26:14 [McCool]
... get an overview of what is means to bring OPC UA devices to a WoT Thing
12:26:20 [McCool]
q+
12:28:49 [McCool]
mm: we have to think about how the information models map onto each other, and whether we want to represent relationships using links, etc.
12:28:59 [McCool]
seb: these are among the kinds of things we have to decide
12:29:34 [McCool]
...coming back to Bernd, what was mentioned in the activity in OPC UA; hopefully we can reuse some of this
12:30:10 [McCool]
... the main deliverable we need is an RDF standard defining the terms needed for the binding: content types, node types, security modes, etc.
12:30:37 [McCool]
... this is conceptually a generic activity; once it exists, a WoT TD binding can just use it
12:31:27 [McCool]
mm: I also think we should reuse as much as possible of the AAS concepts
12:31:37 [McCool]
... so it is compatible conceptually
12:32:12 [McCool]
jl: OPC UA cloud library would provide a dictionary about the concept of the nodeset
12:32:27 [McCool]
... AAS would describe which nodesets are available in a server
12:32:33 [kaz]
q+
12:33:18 [McCool]
... on the other side, description in AAS, how to find security, endpoints, hints regarding cloud libraries
12:33:54 [kaz]
s/jl:/bf:/
12:33:54 [McCool]
s/jl:/bf:/
12:35:33 [McCool]
mm: I would like to reiterate that we should focus on the high-level technical goals so we can establish the charter
12:35:53 [mlagally]
q+
12:36:00 [kaz]
ack mc
12:36:01 [McCool]
kaz: agree with mm; also, jim luth attended our meeting yesterday and we discussed ontologies
12:36:01 [kaz]
ack k
12:36:05 [sebastian]
ack M
12:36:19 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-smartcities-minutes.html Web-based Digital Twins for Smart Cities session
12:36:25 [McCool]
ml: since AAS has been called out twice, would like to understand how OPC UA uses it
12:36:36 [McCool]
... could someone explain?
12:37:03 [McCool]
bf: if I can present I can show some figures
12:37:15 [McCool]
... common area of OPC UA and AAS
12:37:42 [McCool]
seb: ok, if it is fast, we only have 20m left
12:38:14 [McCool]
bf: (shows diagram)
12:39:17 [McCool]
... stores information about an asset, might have a submodel template for an OPC UA
12:39:46 [McCool]
... any application can then discover this information
12:39:53 [McCool]
q+
12:40:23 [sebastian]
q+
12:40:29 [McCool]
... can implement in advance applications that use an asset before it arrives
12:41:13 [McCool]
... asset integration can be defined in a standardized way
12:41:14 [kaz]
present+ Matt_Wherry
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12:41:54 [McCool]
mm: is AAS currently being used by OPC UA?
12:41:56 [kaz]
present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
12:42:02 [McCool]
bf: there is a companion spec
12:42:10 [kaz]
("AAS" stands for "Asset Administration Shell")
12:42:23 [kaz]
q+
12:42:26 [kaz]
ack mc
12:42:28 [kaz]
ack seb
12:42:47 [McCool]
seb: AAS is a data model, has submodel for many different kinds of information; and definition of how to access AAS from HTTP and from OPC UA
12:43:14 [sebastian]
q?
12:44:06 [McCool]
mm: would like to suggest we defer discussing AAS for now, but return to it later
12:44:21 [McCool]
... and would still like resolutions on the two points I mentioned
12:45:09 [McCool]
seb: agree, and think that AAS is not inventing something new, but is using definitions from OPC UA
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12:46:51 [McCool]
proposal: to explictly declare point 3 (reverse OPC UA to WoT binding) as being out of scope
12:48:13 [McCool]
kaz: ok with narrower scope here, but situation with OPC UA is similar to ECHONET, binary vs. http translator
12:49:12 [McCool]
mm: agree, but let's do that next
12:49:23 [McCool]
seb: any concerns with the proposal?
12:49:29 [McCool]
mm: hearing node
12:49:41 [McCool]
s/node/none/
12:49:59 [McCool]
resolution: to explicitly declare point 3 (reverse OPC UA to WoT binding) as being out of scope
12:50:59 [mlagally]
q+
12:51:08 [McCool]
mm: are we doing a binary binding or a translator?
12:51:11 [kaz]
ack k
12:51:29 [McCool]
seb: need to be careful, there are different OPC UA protocols
12:52:42 [Jim_Luth]
q+
12:52:49 [McCool]
... probably want to start with classic one, which is client/server
12:52:56 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
12:53:02 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:53:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:53:08 [McCool]
mm: ok, so there are three options: Soap, client/server, pub/sub
12:53:41 [kaz]
chair: Sebastian/McCool
12:53:52 [McCool]
... maybe we can have several stages, but it sounds like priorities should be client/server, pub/sub
12:54:02 [kaz]
i/thanks for j/topic: Logistics/
12:54:16 [kaz]
q?
12:55:00 [McCool]
ack m
12:55:03 [sebastian]
ack m
12:55:06 [sebastian]
ack j
12:55:22 [McCool]
mm: we can put it into the scope but not necessarily having a resolution today
12:55:44 [Ege]
q+
12:55:48 [McCool]
jl: I guess it depends on what the philosophy of the current bindings are
12:56:16 [McCool]
... for example, does MODBUS binding use binary binding or HTTP bridge?
12:56:53 [kaz]
q+
12:56:56 [McCool]
ege: right now we are doing the first: what IP, port, what data structure, etc.
12:56:58 [kaz]
ack e
12:57:21 [McCool]
... but can translate that in a gateway to another
12:58:49 [McCool]
jl: but the ultimate receiver does not know what the binary protocol looks like?
12:59:08 [McCool]
ege: gateway could be interoperable
12:59:12 [kaz]
s/Bern_F/Bernd_F/
12:59:25 [McCool]
jl: both top and bottom are specified
12:59:31 [sebastian]
q?
12:59:45 [Jim_Luth]
q-
12:59:50 [McCool]
mm: maybe this is something we defer to the actual spec
13:00:21 [McCool]
kaz: agree with Jim that we need to specify enough content for the actual binding; perhaps we should gather some best practices
13:00:38 [McCool]
... for example, Takanaka is already using WoT for MODBUS
13:00:49 [McCool]
q+
13:00:51 [McCool]
ack k
13:01:14 [McCool]
seb: out of time, need to organize next meeting
13:01:46 [McCool]
... suggestion is to have a once-a-month meeting until this is resolved
13:02:23 [kaz]
ack m
13:03:37 [McCool]
mm: personally feel that if we can keep the discussion high level, we really only need one more meeting to define the charter scope
13:04:06 [kaz]
kaz: agree, and would suggest we start with clarifying our expectations and requirements for that purpose
13:04:20 [kaz]
i/agree/scribenick: kaz/
13:04:24 [kaz]
scribenick: McCool
13:04:30 [McCool]
bf: seems there is enough discuss to describe a common working group
13:04:51 [McCool]
mm: technically, it will probably be a pair of groups, one on each side, that are working together
13:05:03 [McCool]
seb: so, another meeting to define the abstract charter
13:06:29 [McCool]
seb: suggest then another, small meeting among the chairs
13:07:17 [kaz]
[adjourned]
13:07:27 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:07:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-wot-minutes.html kaz
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