IRC log of me on 2022-09-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:01:19 [RRSAgent]
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15:01:19 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-me-irc
15:01:22 [Zakim]
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15:01:23 [TuukkaToivonen]
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15:01:35 [kaz]
present+
15:02:05 [kaz]
meeting: Media and Entertainment IG at TPAC 2022
15:02:08 [atai]
present+
15:02:15 [tidoust]
present+ Francois_Daoust
15:02:19 [kaz]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:20 [Zakim]
Present: kaz, atai, Francois_Daoust
15:02:22 [Zakim]
On IRC I see TuukkaToivonen, Zakim, RRSAgent, kaz, atai, igarashi, Tatsuya_Sato, nhk-ryo, tidoust, JohnRiv, ovf, Github, hyojin, sangwhan, emilio, timeless, gkatsev, ada
15:02:57 [Ohmata]
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15:03:42 [Mizushima]
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15:04:03 [hyojin]
present+
15:04:22 [Mizushima]
present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
15:04:33 [ChrisLorenzo]
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15:05:11 [kaz]
present+ Chris_Loreno, Gary, Hisayuki_Ohmata, John_Riviello, Li_Lin, Mark_Vickers, Piers_O'Hanlon, Ryo_Yasuoka, Tatsuya_Sato, Tomoako_Mizushima, Tuukka_Toivonen
15:06:01 [ericc]
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15:06:10 [kaz]
agenda: https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/issues/83#issuecomment-1141259737
15:06:16 [eugene]
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15:06:40 [kaz]
topic: Opening
15:06:52 [kaz]
cpn: (gives what the MEIG does)
15:07:20 [Louay]
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15:07:22 [kaz]
s/topic: Opening/topic: Welcome and Introduction/
15:07:26 [Louay]
present+ Louay_Bassbouss
15:07:34 [Alan]
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15:07:48 [Alan]
present+ AlanBird
15:08:33 [kaz]
... we had a workshop last year
15:08:50 [kaz]
... recently Chris Lorenzo is introducing HTML technology for TV devices
15:09:26 [kaz]
present+ Karl_Carter
15:09:39 [kaz]
... and would ask Nigel to talk about Timed Text
15:09:51 [kaz]
... and then next generation audio
15:09:59 [kaz]
... any other topics to cover today?
15:10:16 [kaz]
... the other thing is a new CG starting
15:10:26 [jholland]
jholland has joined #me
15:10:44 [kaz]
... would recommend everybody join it too
15:10:45 [kaz]
q?
15:11:02 [Larry_Zhao]
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15:11:26 [kaz]
zakim, who is on the call?
15:11:26 [Zakim]
Present: kaz, atai, Francois_Daoust, hyojin, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Chris_Loreno, Gary, Hisayuki_Ohmata, John_Riviello, Li_Lin, Mark_Vickers, Piers_O'Hanlon, Ryo_Yasuoka, Tatsuya_Sato,
15:11:29 [Zakim]
... Tomoako_Mizushima, Tuukka_Toivonen, Louay_Bassbouss, AlanBird, Karl_Carter
15:11:42 [jholland]
present+
15:11:52 [kaz]
present+ Xiaohan_Wang
15:12:24 [kaz]
present+ Russel_Stringham
15:12:29 [p_ohanlon]
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15:12:33 [kaz]
present+ Shinjiro_Urata
15:12:48 [kaz]
present+ Tatsuya_Sato
15:13:31 [kaz]
topic: Application Development for Consumer Products Task Force Charter
15:14:18 [cpn]
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15:14:24 [cpn]
present+ Chris_Needham
15:14:33 [cpn]
Topic: TV application development
15:14:54 [cpn]
ChrisL: We have browsers on TVs, want developers to make applications, but to do that it's different to developing for the web
15:15:14 [cpn]
... Similar to the early days of mobile development, so people preferred native
15:15:34 [cpn]
... Goal of the problem is to identify problems we face as developers, and what can we do to solve them?
15:15:52 [kaz]
i|We have browsers on|-> https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/blob/master/app-development/charter.md Draft TF Charter|
15:16:06 [cpn]
... Tizen as example. You have to download their IDE, and command line tools
15:16:27 [kaz]
i/gives what/scribenick: kaz/
15:16:32 [Geun-Hyung_Kim]
Geun-Hyung_Kim has joined #me
15:16:33 [cpn]
... I spent a long time getting it to install. I want to use tools I'm familiar with, such as VSCode
15:16:37 [cpn]
scribe+ cpn
15:16:39 [kaz]
i/We have b/scribenick: cpn/
15:16:47 [Geun-Hyung_Kim]
present+
15:17:18 [cpn]
... There's good documentation. Samsung developer portal, needs a user account and key
15:17:29 [cpn]
... Bundling the app, figure out putting the TV into developer mode
15:17:37 [cpn]
... Then you can get the web app on the TV
15:18:03 [cpn]
... The process is similar for other TV manufacturers
15:18:18 [cpn]
... It's a complex process
15:18:37 [ChrisLorenzo]
https://mlangendijk.medium.com/deploying-and-running-lighting-apps-on-smarttv-5f27e2491943
15:18:40 [cpn]
... There's an article written recently talking about how to get a web app running on different platforms
15:19:06 [cpn]
... It also mentions Android and Amazon Fire, using web view
15:19:27 [cpn]
... Challenge of building TV apps across devices, it's time consuming
15:19:48 [cpn]
... Needs a large development team
15:20:09 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
15:20:14 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:20:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-me-minutes.html kaz
15:20:41 [cpn]
... Getting a web to load on a TV device is difficult, and varies between devices. Hope to address that in our TF charter
15:21:00 [cpn]
... Embedded devices have 2G memory typically in total. The CPU is not that performant
15:21:18 [kaz]
chair: Chris_Needham, Chris_Lorenzo, Tatsuya_Igarashi
15:21:21 [cpn]
... So if you build an app with HTML and CSS, you may not achieve 30FPS
15:21:43 [cpn]
... Rendering HTML and CSS has overhead, too much CPU usage
15:21:56 [cpn]
... Our team created a JS framework that renders using WebGL
15:22:17 [cpn]
... Enables a smooth experience
15:22:36 [cpn]
... Across all devices, there's no standard for how much CPU and memory does it require
15:22:58 [cpn]
... You can build an app and deploy on the latest TV, it'll look great. But not so much on older devices
15:23:20 [cpn]
... Last topic is API support for TV specific features
15:23:27 [kaz]
present+ Dominique_Hazaƫl-Massieux
15:23:44 [cpn]
... Deploying RDK devices uses a library called ?? that provides access to the device features
15:24:05 [cpn]
... So you have a different API for each device. You need permission from manufacturers to even have access
15:24:17 [cpn]
... Good to have some kind of web API for device specific things such as volume
15:24:35 [cpn]
... Good progress on mobile APIs, e.g., for gyroscope etc. TV devices haven't caught up yet
15:24:36 [cpn]
q?
15:24:57 [ChrisLorenzo]
https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/blob/master/app-development/charter.md
15:25:03 [kaz]
present+ Bernd_Czelhan, Timo_Kunkel, Patrick_Griffis, Tatsuya_Igarashi
15:25:10 [cpn]
... Any questions?
15:25:21 [kaz]
present+ Tove_Petersson, Chris_Lemmons
15:25:27 [kaz]
present+ Cyril_Concolato
15:25:35 [jholland]
q+
15:25:54 [ChrisLorenzo]
Also JS library for TV devices - https://lightningjs.io/
15:26:19 [surata]
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15:27:08 [kaz]
present+ Eugene_Zemtsov, Ingo_Hofmann
15:27:12 [ericc]
present+
15:27:24 [kaz]
present+ Eric_Carlson
15:27:28 [cpn]
ChrisN: Can we address performance issues in HTML CSS, do we need a new standard based on WebGL/Canvas rendering?
15:27:51 [cpn]
ChrisL: It's complicated in HTML, there's the DOM tree, how to deal with resizing. There's always a performance overhead
15:27:54 [kaz]
present+ Hyojin_Song
15:27:56 [jholland]
q-
15:28:02 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura
15:28:06 [cpn]
... It would be wonderful if we could use it
15:28:25 [jholland]
I had some questions, but I think they're mostly addressed by the "success criteria" section in the charter: https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/blob/master/app-development/charter.md#success-criteria
15:28:29 [cpn]
... We're suggesting WebGL as solution, as it's already in the browser. TV apps require animation
15:28:38 [kaz]
present+ Nigel_Megitt
15:28:46 [jholland]
q+
15:29:23 [cpn]
... You can get more FPS from WebGL etc. Not really about saying use WebGL, but also WebGPU and WebAssembly
15:29:51 [cpn]
... Cobalt from Google removed the difficult layout parts, but not sure who's using this
15:30:40 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:30:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-me-minutes.html kaz
15:30:43 [MarkVickers]
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15:31:04 [cpn]
Jake: Do you see developing new standards in a WG?
15:31:13 [kaz]
present+ Andreas_Tai
15:31:22 [jholland]
q-
15:31:25 [nigel]
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15:31:30 [kaz]
present+ Hong_Cai
15:31:36 [cpn]
ChrisL: This is the interest group, so I can't propose solutions. DIAL allows remote application launch
15:31:50 [kaz]
present+ Larry_Zhao
15:32:11 [cpn]
... That would simplify things. Standardising TV APIs is something for the TF to identify then suggest to a WG
15:32:33 [cpn]
... Mobile-like things, progressive web app technologies
15:32:47 [nigel]
Present+ Nigel_Megitt
15:32:53 [nigel]
rrssagent, pointeer
15:32:56 [nigel]
rrssagent, pointer
15:33:12 [nigel]
s/rrssagent, pointeer//
15:33:16 [nigel]
s/rrssagent, pointer//
15:33:21 [nigel]
rrsagent, pointer
15:33:21 [RRSAgent]
See https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-me-irc#T15-33-21
15:34:13 [kaz]
q+
15:34:18 [igarashi]
q+
15:34:28 [nigel]
q+ to ask about accessibility framework support if drawing directly to canvas or webGL without a DOM
15:34:35 [cpn]
ChrisN: Looking for interested companies, would be good to have manufacturers and app developer on board
15:34:37 [kaz]
ack k
15:34:43 [cpn]
Kaz: Identify stakeholders
15:35:14 [cpn]
Igarashi: I'd like to clarify about the development experience. Should the web development environment be standardised or not?
15:35:32 [cpn]
... Sony uses Android TV, but we have a WebView, it's up to the Android environment
15:35:49 [cpn]
... Other TV manufacturers provide HTML, but as an alternative to native apps
15:36:12 [cpn]
... Each manufacturer differentiates based on improved user experiene
15:36:34 [cpn]
... Should we standardise the application environment, or leave it to vary by manufacturers?
15:36:38 [cpn]
q?
15:36:39 [cpn]
ack iga
15:37:12 [cpn]
ChrisL: It depends on what level of standards. Some have TVs have Android, some WebKit, some webviews
15:37:29 [cpn]
... I'd say there needs to be a browser with minimum set of APIs to support TV apps
15:38:06 [cpn]
... A lot of TV manufacturers have emulators to simulate TVs. I want to avoid that as a development environment. I should be able to develop in Chrome in Safari and have it work the same on the TV
15:38:20 [cpn]
... First goal, make it super easy to load an app URL on a TV
15:38:45 [cpn]
Igarashi: I see the issue. Shuold Android TV have a standard development experience
15:39:08 [p_ohanlon]
q+
15:39:08 [cpn]
ChrisL: Really, I'd like to see a web browser in there. If apps have webviews, you're using a browser anyway, so have it as part of the OS
15:39:09 [cpn]
q?
15:39:39 [cpn]
Nigel: It sounds like you want to promote Canvas based rendering. How does that fit with accessibility frameworks, if there's no semantic model of the content
15:40:10 [cpn]
ChrisL: We use WebGL and Canvas to get performance. Having the DOM is great if it were fast enough. Accessibility is more challenging, our solution uses text to speech
15:40:35 [kaz]
s/Identify stakeholders/Identify stakeholders as potential participants in the TF/
15:40:38 [cpn]
... The user always has focus on one element, remote control input. The app reads out where you are. It doesn't rely on ARIA tags
15:41:01 [cpn]
... I find it simpler than ARIA tags. It's extensive, but it's a lot to learn to make semantically correct markup
15:41:26 [cpn]
Nigel: That sounds terrible. Sounds like the only concern is reading text. It's a much bigger problem
15:41:45 [cpn]
... Is reading the text as far as it goes?
15:42:25 [cpn]
ChrisL: A deaf person needs audio cues. For colour blindness and visual impairments, WebGL can change colours across the whole UI with no effort, using a filter
15:42:52 [cpn]
... Then there's other devices for input available, you use a simple remote, not a mouse
15:43:02 [cpn]
... Bring your own device using Bluetooth
15:43:23 [kaz]
q+
15:43:33 [kaz]
ack nigel
15:43:33 [Zakim]
nigel, you wanted to ask about accessibility framework support if drawing directly to canvas or webGL without a DOM
15:43:39 [kaz]
ack p
15:43:58 [cpn]
Piers: On web APIs in TV, HbbTV are developing APIs, seems like an important aspect
15:44:57 [cpn]
... Lightning JS runs a similar speed to DOM type apps, don't know how much more processing is needed. How much time is spent optimising?
15:45:12 [cpn]
... Developer base for Lightning is smaller than React
15:46:08 [cpn]
ChrisL: I've been a web developer for 15 years, now doing TV apps. We've built apps in HTML, can be done, it's usable interface. You can spend time tuning it, but it wasn't achieving 60FPS, not great animations
15:46:43 [cpn]
... Open to solutions, not tied to WebGL
15:46:44 [MarkVickers]
q+
15:47:16 [Karen]
Karen has joined #ME
15:47:43 [nigel]
ChrisN: Good point that other frameworks already exist. Some follow-up work to be done.
15:48:13 [cpn]
Kaz: I agree with ChrisN. ChrisL, you've mentioned pain points, we can continue discussion on requirements for what's needed
15:48:28 [cpn]
... Survey existing current practices as ChrisN mention, in the TF
15:49:29 [cpn]
MarkVickers: One thing that's causing the move to WebGL, difference from PC and mobile is ratio between CPU and GPU speed
15:49:49 [tidoust]
q+ to wonder about next immediate step to create the TF (call for support and consensus?)
15:49:53 [kaz]
ack k
15:50:06 [cpn]
... Graphics acceleration is much closer to PC and mobile. So the ratio between CPU and GPU is closer
15:50:50 [cpn]
ChrisL: Manufacturer goal is to minimise cost to consumers, SoC may be dual core, some are quad code, made to playback 4K video. Everything else is just enough
15:51:18 [kaz]
ack m
15:51:26 [cpn]
... To get it down to a price point, reduce memory, e.g, to 1G of system memory. Loading a web app environment takes a lot of memory
15:51:57 [cpn]
MarkVickers: Goal was to use the same APIs, so underline what ChrisL said about needing a browser APIs
15:52:16 [cpn]
... Want to avoid TV specific APIs, so if there are APIs needed they should apply across all devices
15:52:28 [cpn]
q?
15:53:00 [cpn]
Francois: Next step, call for consensus to create a TF?
15:53:32 [cpn]
ChrisN: Yes, also positive indications for wanting to participate
15:53:52 [cpn]
Topic: Web Media API Snapshot Update
15:54:03 [cpn]
JohnR: I'm here as chair of WAVE HATF
15:54:17 [cpn]
... I want to give an update on the Web Media API Snapshot
15:54:51 [cpn]
... Reflect the state of the web and how TV devices support those APIs
15:55:12 [cpn]
... CTA WAVE is part of CTA, which hosts the CES conference. They do standards work
15:55:23 [cpn]
... The WAVE group focuses on internet video on devices
15:55:39 [cpn]
... Make it easier to consume video on devices. Focus on tools for interop
15:56:07 [cpn]
... The WAVE group doesn't create new standards, but references existing standards as much as possible. HTML5, MSE, EME
15:56:39 [cpn]
... There are a number of groups active in WAVE. The Web Media API group develops the snapshot
15:57:56 [cpn]
... The Device Playback Capability TF looks at video playback itself
15:58:02 [cpn]
... DASH/HLS interop group
15:58:28 [cpn]
... Client media data group focuses on CDN data. Common Access Token Group
15:58:37 [cpn]
... How can we improve interop across CE devices?
15:59:07 [cpn]
... With HATF, we identify the minimum set of web stadards needed with emphasis on streaming
15:59:39 [cpn]
... Use existing APIs, based on four widely adopted engines
15:59:56 [englishm]
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16:00:05 [hfujisawa]
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16:00:07 [cpn]
... We consider the capabilities of CE devices. Just because an API is available in all four devices, doesn't mean we'll include it
16:00:44 [cpn]
... Web Media API Snapshot happens in a W3C CG. Everything is in the open, in GitHub
16:01:02 [cpn]
... We update it every December
16:01:06 [kaz]
present+ Mike_English
16:01:45 [cpn]
... That was requested by manufacturers. We co-publish as a W3C CG Note, not a standard. There's related CTA WAVE spec with the same content
16:02:16 [kaz]
present+ Pierre-Anthony_Lemieux
16:02:43 [cpn]
... HbbTV and ATSC reference the Web Media API Snapshot, a specific snapshot year, not necessarily the most recent
16:02:53 [cpn]
... They choose the snapshot that works on devices
16:03:37 [cpn]
... There's also a test suite to ensure devices meet guidelines, based on Web Platform Tests. We fork WPT, add tests we need to run
16:03:50 [cpn]
... Control it from another device to run the tests
16:04:15 [cpn]
... We contribute changes back to WPT
16:04:32 [cpn]
... There's WAVE directory in WPT
16:04:47 [cpn]
... Louay's team is instrumental in doing that, and hosting the tests online
16:05:32 [cpn]
... As far as what makes it to annual updates, each change needs multiple refernces, caniuse, EcmaScript compatibility tables, etc
16:06:06 [cpn]
... Not always accurate, so we look at the WPT results as input
16:06:15 [cpn]
... We do our own tests
16:08:20 [cpn]
... ECMAScript is being updated to 2022, CSS is updated. for WHATWG it's tricky as those are living standards. We reference W3C snapshots or WHATWG review drafts
16:08:28 [cpn]
... We need stable references
16:08:59 [cpn]
... We're including the receive side of WebRTC. We're considering WASM for the future, not this year
16:09:03 [cpn]
q?
16:09:13 [kaz]
ack t
16:09:13 [Zakim]
tidoust, you wanted to wonder about next immediate step to create the TF (call for support and consensus?)
16:09:17 [cpn]
ack tidoust
16:09:26 [cpn]
q?
16:10:09 [sudeep]
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16:10:12 [cpn]
ChrisN: Any challenges for WASM adoption on devices?
16:10:37 [kaz]
present+ Janina_Sajka, Matthew_Atkinson, Charles_LaPierre, Wendy_Reid, Youenn_Fablet
16:10:40 [jholland]
q+
16:10:47 [pal]
pal has joined #me
16:10:50 [kaz]
present+ Jeff_Jaffe
16:10:50 [cpn]
JohnR: We're not at the stage where we can say it's ready. The 32-bit limitation is an issue, that's why it'll land in 2023
16:11:20 [cpn]
Jake: Any thoughts on recommended memory or CPU budget going into these standards?
16:11:24 [nigel]
q+ to contrast the Web Media API with the idea of Consumer Products
16:11:28 [jholland]
q-
16:12:01 [nigel]
ack nigel
16:12:01 [Zakim]
nigel, you wanted to contrast the Web Media API with the idea of Consumer Products
16:12:04 [cpn]
JohnR: We have an exception, if you're transforming video, don't expect 60FPS. We could include some form of hardware requirement for WASM
16:12:29 [cpn]
Nigel: We've heard two presentations from a CE perspective, at two ends of a spectrum. What's going on?
16:13:07 [cpn]
... We have Web Media API requires DOM and browser. On the other hand, the limitations in CPU saying we can't afford to use the DOM. What lens should we see this through?
16:13:43 [kaz]
q+
16:13:57 [cpn]
JohnR: Goal is to have something for standards bodies. Is this the direction we continue to go? We're actively talking about it. Will there be a pivot, because of the issues Chris mentioned, to something else
16:14:11 [cpn]
... We're actively talking if we need this or something related?
16:14:45 [p_ohanlon]
q+
16:15:02 [nigel]
ack kaz
16:15:14 [cpn]
Kaz: I'm interested in that point. The WoT group organised a breakout, including NHK's demo, smart TV and refrigerator. That connection to WoT is interesting
16:15:25 [cpn]
ChrisN: Want to organise meeting with NHK soon
16:16:00 [cpn]
Piers: If there could be an optimised subset of the full web API that runs on TVs, could be a good solution. For example, MPEG DASH and DVB DASH that runs on TVs
16:16:29 [cpn]
... May be HbbTV produces that, instead of having a different approach, something more optimised
16:16:39 [cpn]
JohnR: That's like what Cobalt does
16:16:55 [cpn]
Piers: There all the others, such as Roku that have their own APIs
16:17:27 [cpn]
JohnR: Also looking at miniapps, webviews. Unsolved problem
16:18:54 [cpn]
ChrisN: Let's figure out how to collaborate between WAVE and MEIG
16:18:58 [cpn]
JohnR: Sounds good
16:19:03 [cpn]
Topic: Timed Text Joint Meeting
16:19:15 [MarkVickers]
Just because a TV application runs best on a subset of HTML5 doesn't require that the HTML5 platform on the TV be subsetted.
16:19:35 [kaz]
i|Want to organise|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2022-09-hybrid-f2f/2022-09-14-WoT-F2F-TPAC2022_Breakout-Endo.pdf NHK's slide on their demo during the WoT breakout on Sep-14|
16:19:37 [cpn]
Nigel: Update on relevant work areas. We're in a charter extension at the moment, currently dealing with a formal objection
16:20:22 [cpn]
... Two topics for this meeting are audio description for dubbing, and timed text complexity
16:20:46 [cpn]
subtopic: Audio Description for Dubbing
16:21:03 [kaz]
present+ Ben_Morss, Hongchan_Choi
16:21:29 [cpn]
Nigel: I set up a CG for Audio Description. That would be a list of times and text that and audio describer would describe the scene. Well established in MAUR
16:21:48 [cpn]
... Seemed to have support, but not enough. Nobody came forward to help edit
16:22:21 [cpn]
... Input from Netflix, they have a need to exchange dubbing scripts. Common requirements. In both cases you need to work out words that need to be spoken at given times
16:22:40 [cpn]
... AD is translation of the video image. We agreed to work on a single spec, a TTML2 profile, called DAPT
16:23:16 [kaz]
i|I set up a CG|-> https://www.w3.org/community/audio-description/ Audio Description CG|
16:23:22 [cpn]
... We're editing to get it to FPWD soon
16:23:45 [cpn]
... We published a requirements document. It's a draft note, published in May
16:23:58 [cpn]
... It describes the workflow for the creation process and what you end up with
16:24:23 [cpn]
... That can include recorded audio with mixing instructions. It could not include the audio, then be used by an actor to create the dubbing output
16:24:39 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/TR/dapt-reqs/ DAPT Requirements
16:24:41 [cpn]
... Its a subset of TTML2 vocabulary, plus metadata to help workflow
16:25:10 [cpn]
... The requirements went out for review, one additionl request for functionality, not added yet
16:25:24 [cpn]
... Process steps are used to extract requirements for the spec
16:25:52 [cpn]
... Can be used for dubbing tools, AD, the recording process
16:26:10 [cpn]
... If you're translating the dialog to create a dubbing script, it makes sense to use that for subtitles
16:26:32 [cpn]
Cyril: It isn't good if you have independent translations from the poeple doing dubbing and those doing subtitling
16:27:03 [cpn]
... If you coordinate the processes by having a single translation to the target language, you get fewer discrepancies
16:27:19 [cpn]
Nigel: Easy to transform those
16:27:51 [cpn]
Jake: Is it about linking text to the audio? It seems like it would be reasonable to have multiple translations, but you don't want the dubbing and text to be misaligned?
16:28:10 [cpn]
Cyril: Our users are watching a show originally in English, but in French with French subtitles
16:28:24 [cpn]
Jake: It's odd when the audio doesn't match the text
16:28:56 [cpn]
Cyril: That's why it's good to have one translation. For a dubbing script you want to adapt to lip sync. We think these should be final adjustments
16:29:08 [cpn]
... The structure of the sentence is the same, better UX
16:29:58 [cpn]
Nigel: It's always a good starting point with authoring to have a close match to the original audio. Then there's an editorial decision to turn that into subtitles and apply styling
16:30:14 [kaz]
i|Its a subset|-> https://w3c.github.io/dapt/ Dubbing and Audio description Profiles of TTML2|
16:30:21 [kaz]
s/Its a/It's a/
16:30:34 [cpn]
Nigel: The work on an audio description profile isn't wasted, we're meeting two use cases instead of one
16:31:01 [cpn]
... I can show a demo of how the mixing instructions can work, either in browser or server side
16:31:40 [cpn]
... Next generation audio, object based audio. This would be amenable for transformation to the instructions for an NGA platform, representing text as different objects
16:31:52 [cpn]
... That's a goal for AD. Open question for the dubbing side
16:31:58 [cpn]
... So it provides a path to do that
16:32:13 [cpn]
... The audio mixing instructions allow you to smoothly adjust gain and position over time
16:32:18 [kaz]
q+
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ack p_o
16:33:21 [cpn]
Janina: We're happy to hear about this work, want to encourage keeping the text that becomes the video description is useful. We don't do enough for people who are deaf blind, want to do more
16:34:05 [cpn]
Nigel: Yes. We made sure it includes the ability for the client to vary the level relative to the program audio. Also putting the text into an ARIA ?? region, so the screen reader can use a different voice
16:34:17 [cpn]
... Also if screen reader is a braille display, it works too
16:34:19 [nigel]
ack kaz
16:34:37 [cpn]
Kaz: Wondering about relationship with Voice XML and SMIL
16:34:53 [cpn]
Nigel: It's close enough to SMIL, no need to further align
16:35:05 [kaz]
s/Voice XML/VoiceXML, SSML/
16:35:35 [cpn]
... If you use text to speech features in TTML you can adjust pitch. Other adjustments for pronunciation
16:35:43 [cpn]
... I'd see that as a v2
16:35:55 [cpn]
Kaz: I need to organise another voice agent workshop. This is related
16:36:19 [cpn]
Nigel: You can't route output from Web Speech to Web Audio. That would be interesting
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16:37:06 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/TR/dapt-reqs/ DAPT Requirements
16:37:11 [cpn]
Janina: APA is actively working on a spec to make sure we can lock in pronunciation on the authoring side on different environments. Not acceptable in education environment to have variations between different renderings
16:37:15 [nigel]
-> https://w3c.github.io/dapt/ DAPT ED
16:37:25 [cpn]
... Meeting at 3:30pm today, you're welcome to join
16:37:38 [nigel]
-> https://bbc.github.io/Adhere/ BBC Adhere ADPT/DAPT playback prototype
16:37:46 [cpn]
... Good meeting with WHATWG. They're happy to make SSML a full citizen
16:38:03 [cpn]
... The pronunciation topic may be of interest, welcome your input
16:38:12 [cpn]
Matthew: Can be used anywhere, also smart speakers
16:38:49 [cpn]
Nigel: Yes. When I created a prototype video, had to add extra SSML directives to make it sound right
16:39:14 [cpn]
... AD providers today would use a human, so little benefit
16:39:36 [cpn]
Janina: Amazon Prime is sometimes delivering script-generated TTS, controversial among consumers
16:39:51 [cpn]
q?
16:40:25 [cpn]
subtopic: IMSC profiles of TTML
16:40:59 [cpn]
Nigel: IMSC profiles of TTML are widely used for providing caption data. Three active versions. Each are referenced from other specs, such as DVB, HbbTV, ATSC
16:41:17 [cpn]
... A feature common to all is the hypthetical render model
16:41:45 [cpn]
... The intent is to manage document complexity such that client devices aren't swamped by the processing load and so can present the intended text at the required time
16:42:13 [cpn]
... It's a maintenance headache for the spec, so we want to factor it out into a new spec and reference normatively rather than duplicate
16:42:22 [cpn]
... There's an open source implementation and lots of content
16:43:20 [cpn]
... Issues to resolve, such as when you have a caption pattern with a few frames with nothing displayed, it increases document complexity
16:43:49 [cpn]
... The time from clear to present next caption, there's only a few frames, under 100ms to do all DOM rendering
16:43:57 [kaz]
i|IMSC profiles|-> https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml-imsc1.2/ TTML Profiles for Internet Media Subtitles and Captions 1.2|
16:43:59 [cpn]
... It can mean caption display is later than desired
16:44:19 [cpn]
... Not good UX. We may decide to optimise in the HRM to allow for that. We want feedback on that
16:44:52 [cpn]
Pierre: From the feedback I received, there's practice out there, when there's a small gap, have a gap of 2 frames, 20-40ms
16:45:29 [cpn]
... in the current HRM, there's a big penalty. It may be artificial due to how it's specified. Can address without changing substantially what an implementation needs to do
16:46:04 [cpn]
Nigel: I'm interested in real world implementations, how they do pre-planning on what they do next
16:46:12 [cpn]
Pierre: https://github.com/sandflow/imscHRM/pull/9
16:46:15 [nigel]
-> https://w3c.github.io/imsc-hrm/spec/imsc-hrm.html IMSC-HRM specification
16:46:21 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/TR/2022/WD-imsc-hrm-20220322/ IMSC Hypothetical Render Model
16:46:35 [cpn]
... Goes back to how it was designed, assume is cleared as beginning of a subtitle, but could be done at the end
16:46:53 [kaz]
s/Render Model/Render Model WD/
16:47:00 [cpn]
... So refactoring the model, can accommodate this practice with affecting how it works
16:47:27 [kaz]
s/HRM specification/HRM specification ED/
16:47:43 [cpn]
... Anyone here with TTML content, try out the HRM. Your content should pass. If it doesn't let's figure out where the problem is, in the HRM or the content
16:47:55 [cpn]
... Please report your experience. Thank you
16:48:07 [cpn]
Pierre:
16:48:11 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/sandflow/imscHRM Open source IMSC HRM software
16:48:35 [nigel]
q?
16:48:37 [cpn]
Pierre: It's easy to run, Python based. Having user feedback as we get to CR will be key
16:48:57 [cpn]
... It's a common practice to have a short gap, but also common to have no gap
16:49:10 [cpn]
Nigel: That summarises what we're up to in TTWG
16:49:11 [cpn]
q?
16:50:25 [cpn]
Pierre: We do need the feedback, want to avoid bad UX or content being rejected
16:51:34 [cpn]
Nigel: This week we had breakouts on privacy and caption settings, and getting useful data to content providers for product improvement. Another breakout on WebVTT to drive TTS in the browser
16:51:53 [cpn]
... TTWG meets today and tomorrow, and joint meeting with APA this afternoon, looking at synchronisation a11y user requirments
16:52:29 [cpn]
Topic: Next Generation Audio
16:52:44 [cpn]
Bernd: First time at TPAC. We're interested in NGA APIs
16:52:57 [nigel]
scribe+ nigel
16:53:18 [nigel]
Bernd: A stream could include different dialogue components in different languages,
16:53:31 [nigel]
.. audio description, or different number of channels eg 5.1, stereo etc
16:53:51 [nigel]
.. Can define preselected mixes and what flexiibility there is to adjust.
16:53:59 [nigel]
.. For example a "no dialogue" preselection,
16:54:07 [nigel]
.. one called "English" with English language
16:54:23 [nigel]
.. "English Dialog plus" with a lowered bed plus English audio
16:54:30 [nigel]
.. [others, adding in audio description]
16:54:36 [nigel]
.. Then allow different interactions
16:54:45 [nigel]
.. for example changing the spatial position of the audio description
16:54:56 [nigel]
.. which could improve the ability to differentiate the audio description
16:55:07 [nigel]
.. This is a paradigm shift where the audio decoder is not only a sink
16:55:16 [nigel]
.. but also can provide information about the stream,
16:55:26 [nigel]
.. and is reactive to the user's settings.
16:55:44 [nigel]
ChrisN: We've been collaborating with Fraunhofer and Dolby (who did AC4)
16:55:56 [nigel]
.. to pull together a proposal for browsers for what NGA could look like.
16:56:01 [nigel]
.. Just the high level capabilities
16:56:19 [nigel]
.. 1. Dialogue enhancement, looking for a toggle to enable/disable and a gain control to allow adjustment
16:56:37 [nigel]
.. 2. Preselections: expose list of what's available as signalled in the content, and controlling the active one.
16:56:58 [nigel]
.. 3. Object based audio control: list of available objects with enable/disable/gain/position adjustments for each one.
16:57:11 [nigel]
.. Current focus is on streaming media playback, file based and MSE based.
16:57:23 [nigel]
.. Intent is codec agnostic, AC-4 or MPEG-H, same API for either.
16:57:38 [nigel]
.. Potentially has interest around WebCodecs and WebAudio but not the focus now.
16:57:51 [nigel]
.. More focused on MSE playback, leave those to future iterations
16:58:00 [nigel]
.. assuming we make progress with regular playback.
16:58:11 [nigel]
.. That's as far as we've got to with the project so far.
16:58:20 [nigel]
.. Interested in talking to anyone who is interested in this.
16:58:32 [nigel]
.. Proposing to come back to this group at some point in the future with more detail
16:58:39 [nigel]
.. so we can start that conversation.
16:58:49 [nigel]
.. Will announce when we're ready and invite participation.
16:58:59 [nigel]
.. Initial reactions and thoughts?
16:59:07 [nigel]
Eric: Eric. Apple - Webkit.
16:59:23 [nigel]
.. In our case this will require changes to frameworks underneath us, system frameworks
16:59:27 [kaz]
q+
16:59:37 [nigel]
.. that Webkit hands off to. We probably don't have the kinds of controls you're talking about.
16:59:43 [nigel]
Bernd: We were thinking about a JS API
16:59:58 [nigel]
Eric: In order to implement those in Webkit we will need features from other parts of the system.
17:00:06 [nigel]
.. We probably can't implement all the things you're talking about yet.
17:00:11 [nigel]
.. It needs more than the JS API.
17:00:17 [nigel]
ChrisN: It would need host OS-level support.
17:00:18 [atai]
q+
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ack ka
17:00:41 [nigel]
Kaz: Depends on the uses cases. Maybe this can be applied to the metaverse AR/VR space.
17:00:59 [nigel]
.. Automatic generated voice sound should be integrated with the recorded audio objects.
17:01:09 [nigel]
.. May be too complicated, but could be useful in some use cases.
17:01:12 [nigel]
q?
17:01:17 [nigel]
acka t
17:01:30 [nigel]
Andreas: Andreas Tai, Invited Expert.
17:01:34 [kaz]
q
17:01:43 [kaz]
ack atai
17:01:45 [nigel]
.. Thanks for pushing this forward. Important to work on interop for this technology
17:01:51 [nigel]
s/acka t//
17:02:07 [nigel]
.. Could be an accessibility preference that would by default activate audio description?
17:02:31 [cpn]
... Another thing about DE signalling, could be related to signalling in the DASH MPD
17:04:58 [nigel]
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17:04:59 [cpn]
[adjourned]
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i|ChrisN: We've been|-> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1r5l1Ydy5qSL9TLdNPxHz2dSOw1AT2G8KSxAIXijIvxA/edit NGA API Requirements|
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present+ Hiroshi_Fujisawa, Tuukka_Toivonen
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