15:01:19 RRSAgent has joined #me 15:01:19 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-me-irc 15:01:22 Zakim has joined #me 15:01:23 TuukkaToivonen has joined #me 15:01:35 present+ 15:02:05 meeting: Media and Entertainment IG at TPAC 2022 15:02:08 present+ 15:02:15 present+ Francois_Daoust 15:02:19 zakim, who is here? 15:02:20 Present: kaz, atai, Francois_Daoust 15:02:22 On IRC I see TuukkaToivonen, Zakim, RRSAgent, kaz, atai, igarashi, Tatsuya_Sato, nhk-ryo, tidoust, JohnRiv, ovf, Github, hyojin, sangwhan, emilio, timeless, gkatsev, ada 15:02:57 Ohmata has joined #me 15:03:42 Mizushima has joined #me 15:04:03 present+ 15:04:22 present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima 15:04:33 ChrisLorenzo has joined #me 15:05:11 present+ Chris_Loreno, Gary, Hisayuki_Ohmata, John_Riviello, Li_Lin, Mark_Vickers, Piers_O'Hanlon, Ryo_Yasuoka, Tatsuya_Sato, Tomoako_Mizushima, Tuukka_Toivonen 15:06:01 ericc has joined #me 15:06:10 agenda: https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/issues/83#issuecomment-1141259737 15:06:16 eugene has joined #me 15:06:40 topic: Opening 15:06:52 cpn: (gives what the MEIG does) 15:07:20 Louay has joined #me 15:07:22 s/topic: Opening/topic: Welcome and Introduction/ 15:07:26 present+ Louay_Bassbouss 15:07:34 Alan has joined #me 15:07:48 present+ AlanBird 15:08:33 ... we had a workshop last year 15:08:50 ... recently Chris Lorenzo is introducing HTML technology for TV devices 15:09:26 present+ Karl_Carter 15:09:39 ... and would ask Nigel to talk about Timed Text 15:09:51 ... and then next generation audio 15:09:59 ... any other topics to cover today? 15:10:16 ... the other thing is a new CG starting 15:10:26 jholland has joined #me 15:10:44 ... would recommend everybody join it too 15:10:45 q? 15:11:02 Larry_Zhao has joined #me 15:11:26 zakim, who is on the call? 15:11:26 Present: kaz, atai, Francois_Daoust, hyojin, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Chris_Loreno, Gary, Hisayuki_Ohmata, John_Riviello, Li_Lin, Mark_Vickers, Piers_O'Hanlon, Ryo_Yasuoka, Tatsuya_Sato, 15:11:29 ... Tomoako_Mizushima, Tuukka_Toivonen, Louay_Bassbouss, AlanBird, Karl_Carter 15:11:42 present+ 15:11:52 present+ Xiaohan_Wang 15:12:24 present+ Russel_Stringham 15:12:29 p_ohanlon has joined #me 15:12:33 present+ Shinjiro_Urata 15:12:48 present+ Tatsuya_Sato 15:13:31 topic: Application Development for Consumer Products Task Force Charter 15:14:18 cpn has joined #me 15:14:24 present+ Chris_Needham 15:14:33 Topic: TV application development 15:14:54 ChrisL: We have browsers on TVs, want developers to make applications, but to do that it's different to developing for the web 15:15:14 ... Similar to the early days of mobile development, so people preferred native 15:15:34 ... Goal of the problem is to identify problems we face as developers, and what can we do to solve them? 15:15:52 i|We have browsers on|-> https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/blob/master/app-development/charter.md Draft TF Charter| 15:16:06 ... Tizen as example. You have to download their IDE, and command line tools 15:16:27 i/gives what/scribenick: kaz/ 15:16:32 Geun-Hyung_Kim has joined #me 15:16:33 ... I spent a long time getting it to install. I want to use tools I'm familiar with, such as VSCode 15:16:37 scribe+ cpn 15:16:39 i/We have b/scribenick: cpn/ 15:16:47 present+ 15:17:18 ... There's good documentation. Samsung developer portal, needs a user account and key 15:17:29 ... Bundling the app, figure out putting the TV into developer mode 15:17:37 ... Then you can get the web app on the TV 15:18:03 ... The process is similar for other TV manufacturers 15:18:18 ... It's a complex process 15:18:37 https://mlangendijk.medium.com/deploying-and-running-lighting-apps-on-smarttv-5f27e2491943 15:18:40 ... There's an article written recently talking about how to get a web app running on different platforms 15:19:06 ... It also mentions Android and Amazon Fire, using web view 15:19:27 ... Challenge of building TV apps across devices, it's time consuming 15:19:48 ... Needs a large development team 15:20:09 rrsagent, make log public 15:20:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:20:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-me-minutes.html kaz 15:20:41 ... Getting a web to load on a TV device is difficult, and varies between devices. Hope to address that in our TF charter 15:21:00 ... Embedded devices have 2G memory typically in total. The CPU is not that performant 15:21:18 chair: Chris_Needham, Chris_Lorenzo, Tatsuya_Igarashi 15:21:21 ... So if you build an app with HTML and CSS, you may not achieve 30FPS 15:21:43 ... Rendering HTML and CSS has overhead, too much CPU usage 15:21:56 ... Our team created a JS framework that renders using WebGL 15:22:17 ... Enables a smooth experience 15:22:36 ... Across all devices, there's no standard for how much CPU and memory does it require 15:22:58 ... You can build an app and deploy on the latest TV, it'll look great. But not so much on older devices 15:23:20 ... Last topic is API support for TV specific features 15:23:27 present+ Dominique_Hazaël-Massieux 15:23:44 ... Deploying RDK devices uses a library called ?? that provides access to the device features 15:24:05 ... So you have a different API for each device. You need permission from manufacturers to even have access 15:24:17 ... Good to have some kind of web API for device specific things such as volume 15:24:35 ... Good progress on mobile APIs, e.g., for gyroscope etc. TV devices haven't caught up yet 15:24:36 q? 15:24:57 https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/blob/master/app-development/charter.md 15:25:03 present+ Bernd_Czelhan, Timo_Kunkel, Patrick_Griffis, Tatsuya_Igarashi 15:25:10 ... Any questions? 15:25:21 present+ Tove_Petersson, Chris_Lemmons 15:25:27 present+ Cyril_Concolato 15:25:35 q+ 15:25:54 Also JS library for TV devices - https://lightningjs.io/ 15:26:19 surata has joined #me 15:27:08 present+ Eugene_Zemtsov, Ingo_Hofmann 15:27:12 present+ 15:27:24 present+ Eric_Carlson 15:27:28 ChrisN: Can we address performance issues in HTML CSS, do we need a new standard based on WebGL/Canvas rendering? 15:27:51 ChrisL: It's complicated in HTML, there's the DOM tree, how to deal with resizing. There's always a performance overhead 15:27:54 present+ Hyojin_Song 15:27:56 q- 15:28:02 present+ Kaz_Ashimura 15:28:06 ... It would be wonderful if we could use it 15:28:25 I had some questions, but I think they're mostly addressed by the "success criteria" section in the charter: https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/blob/master/app-development/charter.md#success-criteria 15:28:29 ... We're suggesting WebGL as solution, as it's already in the browser. TV apps require animation 15:28:38 present+ Nigel_Megitt 15:28:46 q+ 15:29:23 ... You can get more FPS from WebGL etc. Not really about saying use WebGL, but also WebGPU and WebAssembly 15:29:51 ... Cobalt from Google removed the difficult layout parts, but not sure who's using this 15:30:40 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:30:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-me-minutes.html kaz 15:30:43 MarkVickers has joined #me 15:31:04 Jake: Do you see developing new standards in a WG? 15:31:13 present+ Andreas_Tai 15:31:22 q- 15:31:25 nigel has joined #me 15:31:30 present+ Hong_Cai 15:31:36 ChrisL: This is the interest group, so I can't propose solutions. DIAL allows remote application launch 15:31:50 present+ Larry_Zhao 15:32:11 ... That would simplify things. Standardising TV APIs is something for the TF to identify then suggest to a WG 15:32:33 ... Mobile-like things, progressive web app technologies 15:32:47 Present+ Nigel_Megitt 15:32:53 rrssagent, pointeer 15:32:56 rrssagent, pointer 15:33:12 s/rrssagent, pointeer// 15:33:16 s/rrssagent, pointer// 15:33:21 rrsagent, pointer 15:33:21 See https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-me-irc#T15-33-21 15:34:13 q+ 15:34:18 q+ 15:34:28 q+ to ask about accessibility framework support if drawing directly to canvas or webGL without a DOM 15:34:35 ChrisN: Looking for interested companies, would be good to have manufacturers and app developer on board 15:34:37 ack k 15:34:43 Kaz: Identify stakeholders 15:35:14 Igarashi: I'd like to clarify about the development experience. Should the web development environment be standardised or not? 15:35:32 ... Sony uses Android TV, but we have a WebView, it's up to the Android environment 15:35:49 ... Other TV manufacturers provide HTML, but as an alternative to native apps 15:36:12 ... Each manufacturer differentiates based on improved user experiene 15:36:34 ... Should we standardise the application environment, or leave it to vary by manufacturers? 15:36:38 q? 15:36:39 ack iga 15:37:12 ChrisL: It depends on what level of standards. Some have TVs have Android, some WebKit, some webviews 15:37:29 ... I'd say there needs to be a browser with minimum set of APIs to support TV apps 15:38:06 ... A lot of TV manufacturers have emulators to simulate TVs. I want to avoid that as a development environment. I should be able to develop in Chrome in Safari and have it work the same on the TV 15:38:20 ... First goal, make it super easy to load an app URL on a TV 15:38:45 Igarashi: I see the issue. Shuold Android TV have a standard development experience 15:39:08 q+ 15:39:08 ChrisL: Really, I'd like to see a web browser in there. If apps have webviews, you're using a browser anyway, so have it as part of the OS 15:39:09 q? 15:39:39 Nigel: It sounds like you want to promote Canvas based rendering. How does that fit with accessibility frameworks, if there's no semantic model of the content 15:40:10 ChrisL: We use WebGL and Canvas to get performance. Having the DOM is great if it were fast enough. Accessibility is more challenging, our solution uses text to speech 15:40:35 s/Identify stakeholders/Identify stakeholders as potential participants in the TF/ 15:40:38 ... The user always has focus on one element, remote control input. The app reads out where you are. It doesn't rely on ARIA tags 15:41:01 ... I find it simpler than ARIA tags. It's extensive, but it's a lot to learn to make semantically correct markup 15:41:26 Nigel: That sounds terrible. Sounds like the only concern is reading text. It's a much bigger problem 15:41:45 ... Is reading the text as far as it goes? 15:42:25 ChrisL: A deaf person needs audio cues. For colour blindness and visual impairments, WebGL can change colours across the whole UI with no effort, using a filter 15:42:52 ... Then there's other devices for input available, you use a simple remote, not a mouse 15:43:02 ... Bring your own device using Bluetooth 15:43:23 q+ 15:43:33 ack nigel 15:43:33 nigel, you wanted to ask about accessibility framework support if drawing directly to canvas or webGL without a DOM 15:43:39 ack p 15:43:58 Piers: On web APIs in TV, HbbTV are developing APIs, seems like an important aspect 15:44:57 ... Lightning JS runs a similar speed to DOM type apps, don't know how much more processing is needed. How much time is spent optimising? 15:45:12 ... Developer base for Lightning is smaller than React 15:46:08 ChrisL: I've been a web developer for 15 years, now doing TV apps. We've built apps in HTML, can be done, it's usable interface. You can spend time tuning it, but it wasn't achieving 60FPS, not great animations 15:46:43 ... Open to solutions, not tied to WebGL 15:46:44 q+ 15:47:16 Karen has joined #ME 15:47:43 ChrisN: Good point that other frameworks already exist. Some follow-up work to be done. 15:48:13 Kaz: I agree with ChrisN. ChrisL, you've mentioned pain points, we can continue discussion on requirements for what's needed 15:48:28 ... Survey existing current practices as ChrisN mention, in the TF 15:49:29 MarkVickers: One thing that's causing the move to WebGL, difference from PC and mobile is ratio between CPU and GPU speed 15:49:49 q+ to wonder about next immediate step to create the TF (call for support and consensus?) 15:49:53 ack k 15:50:06 ... Graphics acceleration is much closer to PC and mobile. So the ratio between CPU and GPU is closer 15:50:50 ChrisL: Manufacturer goal is to minimise cost to consumers, SoC may be dual core, some are quad code, made to playback 4K video. Everything else is just enough 15:51:18 ack m 15:51:26 ... To get it down to a price point, reduce memory, e.g, to 1G of system memory. Loading a web app environment takes a lot of memory 15:51:57 MarkVickers: Goal was to use the same APIs, so underline what ChrisL said about needing a browser APIs 15:52:16 ... Want to avoid TV specific APIs, so if there are APIs needed they should apply across all devices 15:52:28 q? 15:53:00 Francois: Next step, call for consensus to create a TF? 15:53:32 ChrisN: Yes, also positive indications for wanting to participate 15:53:52 Topic: Web Media API Snapshot Update 15:54:03 JohnR: I'm here as chair of WAVE HATF 15:54:17 ... I want to give an update on the Web Media API Snapshot 15:54:51 ... Reflect the state of the web and how TV devices support those APIs 15:55:12 ... CTA WAVE is part of CTA, which hosts the CES conference. They do standards work 15:55:23 ... The WAVE group focuses on internet video on devices 15:55:39 ... Make it easier to consume video on devices. Focus on tools for interop 15:56:07 ... The WAVE group doesn't create new standards, but references existing standards as much as possible. HTML5, MSE, EME 15:56:39 ... There are a number of groups active in WAVE. The Web Media API group develops the snapshot 15:57:56 ... The Device Playback Capability TF looks at video playback itself 15:58:02 ... DASH/HLS interop group 15:58:28 ... Client media data group focuses on CDN data. Common Access Token Group 15:58:37 ... How can we improve interop across CE devices? 15:59:07 ... With HATF, we identify the minimum set of web stadards needed with emphasis on streaming 15:59:39 ... Use existing APIs, based on four widely adopted engines 15:59:56 englishm has joined #me 16:00:05 hfujisawa has joined #me 16:00:07 ... We consider the capabilities of CE devices. Just because an API is available in all four devices, doesn't mean we'll include it 16:00:44 ... Web Media API Snapshot happens in a W3C CG. Everything is in the open, in GitHub 16:01:02 ... We update it every December 16:01:06 present+ Mike_English 16:01:45 ... That was requested by manufacturers. We co-publish as a W3C CG Note, not a standard. There's related CTA WAVE spec with the same content 16:02:16 present+ Pierre-Anthony_Lemieux 16:02:43 ... HbbTV and ATSC reference the Web Media API Snapshot, a specific snapshot year, not necessarily the most recent 16:02:53 ... They choose the snapshot that works on devices 16:03:37 ... There's also a test suite to ensure devices meet guidelines, based on Web Platform Tests. We fork WPT, add tests we need to run 16:03:50 ... Control it from another device to run the tests 16:04:15 ... We contribute changes back to WPT 16:04:32 ... There's WAVE directory in WPT 16:04:47 ... Louay's team is instrumental in doing that, and hosting the tests online 16:05:32 ... As far as what makes it to annual updates, each change needs multiple refernces, caniuse, EcmaScript compatibility tables, etc 16:06:06 ... Not always accurate, so we look at the WPT results as input 16:06:15 ... We do our own tests 16:08:20 ... ECMAScript is being updated to 2022, CSS is updated. for WHATWG it's tricky as those are living standards. We reference W3C snapshots or WHATWG review drafts 16:08:28 ... We need stable references 16:08:59 ... We're including the receive side of WebRTC. We're considering WASM for the future, not this year 16:09:03 q? 16:09:13 ack t 16:09:13 tidoust, you wanted to wonder about next immediate step to create the TF (call for support and consensus?) 16:09:17 ack tidoust 16:09:26 q? 16:10:09 sudeep has joined #me 16:10:12 ChrisN: Any challenges for WASM adoption on devices? 16:10:37 present+ Janina_Sajka, Matthew_Atkinson, Charles_LaPierre, Wendy_Reid, Youenn_Fablet 16:10:40 q+ 16:10:47 pal has joined #me 16:10:50 present+ Jeff_Jaffe 16:10:50 JohnR: We're not at the stage where we can say it's ready. The 32-bit limitation is an issue, that's why it'll land in 2023 16:11:20 Jake: Any thoughts on recommended memory or CPU budget going into these standards? 16:11:24 q+ to contrast the Web Media API with the idea of Consumer Products 16:11:28 q- 16:12:01 ack nigel 16:12:01 nigel, you wanted to contrast the Web Media API with the idea of Consumer Products 16:12:04 JohnR: We have an exception, if you're transforming video, don't expect 60FPS. We could include some form of hardware requirement for WASM 16:12:29 Nigel: We've heard two presentations from a CE perspective, at two ends of a spectrum. What's going on? 16:13:07 ... We have Web Media API requires DOM and browser. On the other hand, the limitations in CPU saying we can't afford to use the DOM. What lens should we see this through? 16:13:43 q+ 16:13:57 JohnR: Goal is to have something for standards bodies. Is this the direction we continue to go? We're actively talking about it. Will there be a pivot, because of the issues Chris mentioned, to something else 16:14:11 ... We're actively talking if we need this or something related? 16:14:45 q+ 16:15:02 ack kaz 16:15:14 Kaz: I'm interested in that point. The WoT group organised a breakout, including NHK's demo, smart TV and refrigerator. That connection to WoT is interesting 16:15:25 ChrisN: Want to organise meeting with NHK soon 16:16:00 Piers: If there could be an optimised subset of the full web API that runs on TVs, could be a good solution. For example, MPEG DASH and DVB DASH that runs on TVs 16:16:29 ... May be HbbTV produces that, instead of having a different approach, something more optimised 16:16:39 JohnR: That's like what Cobalt does 16:16:55 Piers: There all the others, such as Roku that have their own APIs 16:17:27 JohnR: Also looking at miniapps, webviews. Unsolved problem 16:18:54 ChrisN: Let's figure out how to collaborate between WAVE and MEIG 16:18:58 JohnR: Sounds good 16:19:03 Topic: Timed Text Joint Meeting 16:19:15 Just because a TV application runs best on a subset of HTML5 doesn't require that the HTML5 platform on the TV be subsetted. 16:19:35 i|Want to organise|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2022-09-hybrid-f2f/2022-09-14-WoT-F2F-TPAC2022_Breakout-Endo.pdf NHK's slide on their demo during the WoT breakout on Sep-14| 16:19:37 Nigel: Update on relevant work areas. We're in a charter extension at the moment, currently dealing with a formal objection 16:20:22 ... Two topics for this meeting are audio description for dubbing, and timed text complexity 16:20:46 subtopic: Audio Description for Dubbing 16:21:03 present+ Ben_Morss, Hongchan_Choi 16:21:29 Nigel: I set up a CG for Audio Description. That would be a list of times and text that and audio describer would describe the scene. Well established in MAUR 16:21:48 ... Seemed to have support, but not enough. Nobody came forward to help edit 16:22:21 ... Input from Netflix, they have a need to exchange dubbing scripts. Common requirements. In both cases you need to work out words that need to be spoken at given times 16:22:40 ... AD is translation of the video image. We agreed to work on a single spec, a TTML2 profile, called DAPT 16:23:16 i|I set up a CG|-> https://www.w3.org/community/audio-description/ Audio Description CG| 16:23:22 ... We're editing to get it to FPWD soon 16:23:45 ... We published a requirements document. It's a draft note, published in May 16:23:58 ... It describes the workflow for the creation process and what you end up with 16:24:23 ... That can include recorded audio with mixing instructions. It could not include the audio, then be used by an actor to create the dubbing output 16:24:39 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/dapt-reqs/ DAPT Requirements 16:24:41 ... Its a subset of TTML2 vocabulary, plus metadata to help workflow 16:25:10 ... The requirements went out for review, one additionl request for functionality, not added yet 16:25:24 ... Process steps are used to extract requirements for the spec 16:25:52 ... Can be used for dubbing tools, AD, the recording process 16:26:10 ... If you're translating the dialog to create a dubbing script, it makes sense to use that for subtitles 16:26:32 Cyril: It isn't good if you have independent translations from the poeple doing dubbing and those doing subtitling 16:27:03 ... If you coordinate the processes by having a single translation to the target language, you get fewer discrepancies 16:27:19 Nigel: Easy to transform those 16:27:51 Jake: Is it about linking text to the audio? It seems like it would be reasonable to have multiple translations, but you don't want the dubbing and text to be misaligned? 16:28:10 Cyril: Our users are watching a show originally in English, but in French with French subtitles 16:28:24 Jake: It's odd when the audio doesn't match the text 16:28:56 Cyril: That's why it's good to have one translation. For a dubbing script you want to adapt to lip sync. We think these should be final adjustments 16:29:08 ... The structure of the sentence is the same, better UX 16:29:58 Nigel: It's always a good starting point with authoring to have a close match to the original audio. Then there's an editorial decision to turn that into subtitles and apply styling 16:30:14 i|Its a subset|-> https://w3c.github.io/dapt/ Dubbing and Audio description Profiles of TTML2| 16:30:21 s/Its a/It's a/ 16:30:34 Nigel: The work on an audio description profile isn't wasted, we're meeting two use cases instead of one 16:31:01 ... I can show a demo of how the mixing instructions can work, either in browser or server side 16:31:40 ... Next generation audio, object based audio. This would be amenable for transformation to the instructions for an NGA platform, representing text as different objects 16:31:52 ... That's a goal for AD. Open question for the dubbing side 16:31:58 ... So it provides a path to do that 16:32:13 ... The audio mixing instructions allow you to smoothly adjust gain and position over time 16:32:18 q+ 16:32:35 ack p_o 16:33:21 Janina: We're happy to hear about this work, want to encourage keeping the text that becomes the video description is useful. We don't do enough for people who are deaf blind, want to do more 16:34:05 Nigel: Yes. We made sure it includes the ability for the client to vary the level relative to the program audio. Also putting the text into an ARIA ?? region, so the screen reader can use a different voice 16:34:17 ... Also if screen reader is a braille display, it works too 16:34:19 ack kaz 16:34:37 Kaz: Wondering about relationship with Voice XML and SMIL 16:34:53 Nigel: It's close enough to SMIL, no need to further align 16:35:05 s/Voice XML/VoiceXML, SSML/ 16:35:35 ... If you use text to speech features in TTML you can adjust pitch. Other adjustments for pronunciation 16:35:43 ... I'd see that as a v2 16:35:55 Kaz: I need to organise another voice agent workshop. This is related 16:36:19 Nigel: You can't route output from Web Speech to Web Audio. That would be interesting 16:36:24 atai has joined #me 16:37:06 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/dapt-reqs/ DAPT Requirements 16:37:11 Janina: APA is actively working on a spec to make sure we can lock in pronunciation on the authoring side on different environments. Not acceptable in education environment to have variations between different renderings 16:37:15 -> https://w3c.github.io/dapt/ DAPT ED 16:37:25 ... Meeting at 3:30pm today, you're welcome to join 16:37:38 -> https://bbc.github.io/Adhere/ BBC Adhere ADPT/DAPT playback prototype 16:37:46 ... Good meeting with WHATWG. They're happy to make SSML a full citizen 16:38:03 ... The pronunciation topic may be of interest, welcome your input 16:38:12 Matthew: Can be used anywhere, also smart speakers 16:38:49 Nigel: Yes. When I created a prototype video, had to add extra SSML directives to make it sound right 16:39:14 ... AD providers today would use a human, so little benefit 16:39:36 Janina: Amazon Prime is sometimes delivering script-generated TTS, controversial among consumers 16:39:51 q? 16:40:25 subtopic: IMSC profiles of TTML 16:40:59 Nigel: IMSC profiles of TTML are widely used for providing caption data. Three active versions. Each are referenced from other specs, such as DVB, HbbTV, ATSC 16:41:17 ... A feature common to all is the hypthetical render model 16:41:45 ... The intent is to manage document complexity such that client devices aren't swamped by the processing load and so can present the intended text at the required time 16:42:13 ... It's a maintenance headache for the spec, so we want to factor it out into a new spec and reference normatively rather than duplicate 16:42:22 ... There's an open source implementation and lots of content 16:43:20 ... Issues to resolve, such as when you have a caption pattern with a few frames with nothing displayed, it increases document complexity 16:43:49 ... The time from clear to present next caption, there's only a few frames, under 100ms to do all DOM rendering 16:43:57 i|IMSC profiles|-> https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml-imsc1.2/ TTML Profiles for Internet Media Subtitles and Captions 1.2| 16:43:59 ... It can mean caption display is later than desired 16:44:19 ... Not good UX. We may decide to optimise in the HRM to allow for that. We want feedback on that 16:44:52 Pierre: From the feedback I received, there's practice out there, when there's a small gap, have a gap of 2 frames, 20-40ms 16:45:29 ... in the current HRM, there's a big penalty. It may be artificial due to how it's specified. Can address without changing substantially what an implementation needs to do 16:46:04 Nigel: I'm interested in real world implementations, how they do pre-planning on what they do next 16:46:12 Pierre: https://github.com/sandflow/imscHRM/pull/9 16:46:15 -> https://w3c.github.io/imsc-hrm/spec/imsc-hrm.html IMSC-HRM specification 16:46:21 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/2022/WD-imsc-hrm-20220322/ IMSC Hypothetical Render Model 16:46:35 ... Goes back to how it was designed, assume is cleared as beginning of a subtitle, but could be done at the end 16:46:53 s/Render Model/Render Model WD/ 16:47:00 ... So refactoring the model, can accommodate this practice with affecting how it works 16:47:27 s/HRM specification/HRM specification ED/ 16:47:43 ... Anyone here with TTML content, try out the HRM. Your content should pass. If it doesn't let's figure out where the problem is, in the HRM or the content 16:47:55 ... Please report your experience. Thank you 16:48:07 Pierre: 16:48:11 -> https://github.com/sandflow/imscHRM Open source IMSC HRM software 16:48:35 q? 16:48:37 Pierre: It's easy to run, Python based. Having user feedback as we get to CR will be key 16:48:57 ... It's a common practice to have a short gap, but also common to have no gap 16:49:10 Nigel: That summarises what we're up to in TTWG 16:49:11 q? 16:50:25 Pierre: We do need the feedback, want to avoid bad UX or content being rejected 16:51:34 Nigel: This week we had breakouts on privacy and caption settings, and getting useful data to content providers for product improvement. Another breakout on WebVTT to drive TTS in the browser 16:51:53 ... TTWG meets today and tomorrow, and joint meeting with APA this afternoon, looking at synchronisation a11y user requirments 16:52:29 Topic: Next Generation Audio 16:52:44 Bernd: First time at TPAC. We're interested in NGA APIs 16:52:57 scribe+ nigel 16:53:18 Bernd: A stream could include different dialogue components in different languages, 16:53:31 .. audio description, or different number of channels eg 5.1, stereo etc 16:53:51 .. Can define preselected mixes and what flexiibility there is to adjust. 16:53:59 .. For example a "no dialogue" preselection, 16:54:07 .. one called "English" with English language 16:54:23 .. "English Dialog plus" with a lowered bed plus English audio 16:54:30 .. [others, adding in audio description] 16:54:36 .. Then allow different interactions 16:54:45 .. for example changing the spatial position of the audio description 16:54:56 .. which could improve the ability to differentiate the audio description 16:55:07 .. This is a paradigm shift where the audio decoder is not only a sink 16:55:16 .. but also can provide information about the stream, 16:55:26 .. and is reactive to the user's settings. 16:55:44 ChrisN: We've been collaborating with Fraunhofer and Dolby (who did AC4) 16:55:56 .. to pull together a proposal for browsers for what NGA could look like. 16:56:01 .. Just the high level capabilities 16:56:19 .. 1. Dialogue enhancement, looking for a toggle to enable/disable and a gain control to allow adjustment 16:56:37 .. 2. Preselections: expose list of what's available as signalled in the content, and controlling the active one. 16:56:58 .. 3. Object based audio control: list of available objects with enable/disable/gain/position adjustments for each one. 16:57:11 .. Current focus is on streaming media playback, file based and MSE based. 16:57:23 .. Intent is codec agnostic, AC-4 or MPEG-H, same API for either. 16:57:38 .. Potentially has interest around WebCodecs and WebAudio but not the focus now. 16:57:51 .. More focused on MSE playback, leave those to future iterations 16:58:00 .. assuming we make progress with regular playback. 16:58:11 .. That's as far as we've got to with the project so far. 16:58:20 .. Interested in talking to anyone who is interested in this. 16:58:32 .. Proposing to come back to this group at some point in the future with more detail 16:58:39 .. so we can start that conversation. 16:58:49 .. Will announce when we're ready and invite participation. 16:58:59 .. Initial reactions and thoughts? 16:59:07 Eric: Eric. Apple - Webkit. 16:59:23 .. In our case this will require changes to frameworks underneath us, system frameworks 16:59:27 q+ 16:59:37 .. that Webkit hands off to. We probably don't have the kinds of controls you're talking about. 16:59:43 Bernd: We were thinking about a JS API 16:59:58 Eric: In order to implement those in Webkit we will need features from other parts of the system. 17:00:06 .. We probably can't implement all the things you're talking about yet. 17:00:11 .. It needs more than the JS API. 17:00:17 ChrisN: It would need host OS-level support. 17:00:18 q+ 17:00:26 ack ka 17:00:41 Kaz: Depends on the uses cases. Maybe this can be applied to the metaverse AR/VR space. 17:00:59 .. Automatic generated voice sound should be integrated with the recorded audio objects. 17:01:09 .. May be too complicated, but could be useful in some use cases. 17:01:12 q? 17:01:17 acka t 17:01:30 Andreas: Andreas Tai, Invited Expert. 17:01:34 q 17:01:43 ack atai 17:01:45 .. Thanks for pushing this forward. Important to work on interop for this technology 17:01:51 s/acka t// 17:02:07 .. Could be an accessibility preference that would by default activate audio description? 17:02:31 ... Another thing about DE signalling, could be related to signalling in the DASH MPD 17:04:58 nigel has joined #me 17:04:59 [adjourned] 17:07:43 pal has left #me 17:09:16 nigel has joined #me 17:15:51 nigel_ has joined #me 17:19:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:19:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-me-minutes.html cpn 17:20:05 rrsagent, make log public 17:20:11 nigel_ has joined #me 17:28:15 atsushi has joined #me 17:32:33 Karen has joined #ME 17:34:28 present+ 17:53:57 i|ChrisN: We've been|-> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1r5l1Ydy5qSL9TLdNPxHz2dSOw1AT2G8KSxAIXijIvxA/edit NGA API Requirements| 17:54:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:54:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-me-minutes.html cpn 17:59:58 Alan has joined #me 18:21:18 present+ Hiroshi_Fujisawa, Tuukka_Toivonen 18:21:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:21:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-me-minutes.html cpn 19:06:13 Alan has left #me 19:49:59 nigel has joined #me 19:54:20 nigel has joined #me 19:56:08 nigel has joined #me 20:00:18 nigel has joined #me 20:25:19 Karen has joined #ME 20:27:54 kaz has joined #me 20:28:09 rrsagent, make log public 20:28:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 20:28:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-me-minutes.html kaz 20:28:55 Karen has joined #ME 20:30:36 nigel has joined #me 20:39:43 nigel has joined #me 20:42:32 nigel has joined #me 20:45:10 Zakim has left #me 20:48:33 nigel_ has joined #me 20:53:59 kaz has joined #me 21:01:14 igarashi has joined #me 21:01:25 igarashi has left #me 21:26:11 nigel has joined #me 21:29:02 nigel_ has joined #me 21:58:08 Karen has joined #ME 22:29:30 nigel has joined #me 22:32:23 kaz has joined #me 22:33:20 kaz has joined #me 22:33:40 kaz has joined #me 22:33:45 jib has joined #me 22:37:16 kaz has joined #me 23:39:56 nigel has joined #me 23:42:27 nigel_ has joined #me 23:56:45 nigel has joined #me