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20:31:47 <cpn> present+ Chris_Needham
20:31:52 <Karen> present+ Karen_Myers
20:31:57 <chris> present+
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20:32:16 <tidoust> present+ Francois_Daoust
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20:32:25 <Karen> Timo: let's do some introductions, give a short presentation and then discussion and next steps
20:32:59 <Karen> Timo: I'm Timo Kunkel with Dolby, in CTO with Pat, doing imaging HDI, and want to discuss these things
20:33:27 <Karen> Pat Griffis, Dolby: I'm VP at Dolby in CTO office; we're neophytes in W3C
20:33:31 <Karen> ...we are media format experts
20:33:39 <Karen> ...I helped to standardize HDR in SMPTE
20:33:44 <Karen> ....we also have some audio experts
20:33:52 <Karen> ...looking forward to finding a win/win for W3C
20:33:58 <cpn> present+ Eric_Carlson, Pat_Griffis, David_Singer, Alan_Bird, Wendy_Selzer, Paul_Adenot, Cyril_Concolato, Hongchan_Choi, Chris_Lilley
20:34:06 <Karen> Eric Carlson, Apple: I'm an engineer on WebKit
20:34:15 <igarashi_> igarashi_ has joined #AudioFmts
20:34:24 <Karen> Dave Singer, Apple: used to be on media team, now on web team; look after W3C politics
20:34:33 <Karen> Alan Bird, Global Business Development Leader for W3C
20:34:39 <kaz> kaz has joined #AudioFmts
20:34:48 <Karen> Igarashi, Sony
20:35:00 <Karen> Eugene Zemstov
20:35:07 <igarashi_> present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi
20:35:10 <Karen> Hyojin Song, LG
20:35:19 <Karen> Wendy Seltzer, W3C Team, strategy lead and council
20:35:27 <eeeps> eeeps has joined #AudioFmts
20:35:37 <Karen> Kensaku: I work on Web RTC
20:35:42 <riju> riju has joined #AudioFmts
20:35:44 <Karen> Marie-Claire Forgue, W3C
20:35:44 <cpn> present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi, Hyojin_Song, Timo_Kunkel, Bhoomika_Bhagchandani, Wolfgang_Schildbach
20:35:54 <Karen> Chris Needham, BBC: co-chair of M&E IG and WG
20:36:07 <Karen> Paul Adenot, Mozilla: work on Firefox and editor of a couple specs
20:36:13 <Karen> @@
20:36:18 <Karen> Thomas Gilbert: work on Chromium
20:36:20 <cpn> present+ Thomas_Guilbert
20:36:30 <Karen> Cyril, Netflix
20:36:46 <Karen> Chris Lilley, CSS Color 4 and 5, W3C rep to Int'l Color Consortium
20:36:51 <Karen> Ingo, Frauenhofer
20:36:52 <cpn> present+ Ingo_Hoffman
20:36:58 <Karen> Karen Myers, W3C
20:37:02 <kaz>      present+ Kaz_Ashimura
20:37:19 <Karen> Hongchan Choi
20:37:28 <Karen> Alan: And on Zoom?
20:37:28 <cyril> s/Cyril, Netflix/Cyril Concolato, Netflix, File Format chair at MPEG and Storage and Transport Format chair at AOM/
20:37:50 <Karen> Wolfgang Schildenach, Dolby
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20:37:59 <chris> s/Lilley,/Lilley, W3C,
20:38:05 <Karen> Bhoomika, Amazon
20:38:19 <Karen> Eric Portis, CTO team at @
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20:38:27 <eeeps> Cloudinary
20:38:41 <Karen> Riju, Chromium developer
20:38:49 <Karen> Timo: We made some slides to get the ball rolling
20:38:59 <Karen> [slide 1] Why are we here?
20:39:14 <Karen> ...Audio Video is a dominant use case on the web; they are advancing, offering more features
20:39:32 <Karen> ...spatial audio formats, high dynamic range, AR/VR all these things are coming are well
20:39:33 <chris> Are the slides online? Link?
20:39:36 <Karen> ...and can benefit consumers and users
20:39:48 <Karen> ...also for multi-channel audio, complex streams
20:40:04 <Karen> [slides available afterwards]
20:40:19 <Karen> Timo: these advanced formats are either difficult or impossible on the web
20:40:25 <Karen> ..many of features might not be supported
20:40:44 <Karen> ...cause can be on implementation complexity, limited documentation, or lack of unique identifiers
20:40:59 <Karen> ...other markets these formats are widely deployed
20:41:08 <Karen> ...mobile phones, sound bars, home audio
20:41:22 <Karen> ...in 2020, 58% had HDR functionality and that number has likely gone up
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20:41:45 <Karen> ...So because the playback devices support this, the content providers satisfy requirements
20:41:52 <Karen> ...Consistent experiences are not yet possible
20:41:58 <Karen> ...these are opportunities for us to tap into
20:42:07 <Karen> ...there is an interest to make them possible
20:42:16 <Karen> ...we thought about some typical examples
20:42:21 <Karen> ...one is play back of video content
20:42:32 <Karen> ...one thing we talked about was compositing of complex content
20:42:39 <Karen> ...can be spatial or temporal
20:42:47 <Karen> ...elements originate from different formats and servers
20:42:51 <Karen> ...could be HDR, diff formats
20:42:56 <Karen> ...similar situation on sound side
20:43:05 <Karen> ...audio in monochannel, etc.
20:43:10 <Karen> ...graphical use interfaces
20:43:12 <chris> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/Color/Workshop/talks.html#compos
20:43:17 <Karen> ...and less common applications that use these formats
20:43:21 <Karen> ...or could use them in future
20:43:35 <Karen> ...Go one step further, as I learned at IBC last week, and discussed in another W3C workshop last year
20:43:42 <Karen> .. is content creation and modification
20:43:51 <Karen> ...common thing consumers are already doing
20:43:53 <Karen> ...in SDI
20:43:55 <chris> s/about was/about at the HDR & WCG Workshop was/
20:43:58 <Karen> ...next step to HDR
20:44:08 <Karen> ...can we create media with addition of common standards in advance formats
20:44:16 <Karen> ...can we manipulate the advanced metadata
20:44:30 <Karen> ...another example is assess, preview and manage content
20:44:40 <Karen> ...for frontednd of online storage providers
20:44:42 <Karen> ...and preview that
20:44:47 <Karen> ...can do with stereo and SDR
20:44:53 <Karen> ...nice to preview in the file
20:45:02 <Karen> ...So this brings us to the problem statement
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20:45:22 <Karen> ...media format support by W3C does not sufficiently cover the requirements of today's technology & content
20:45:37 <Karen> ...question is, is this true; and what should happen next to solve this issue
20:45:40 <Karen> ...and to form a CG
20:45:54 <Karen> ...and what is required to improve the quality of experience
20:46:09 <Karen> ...specify how to call open and commercial formats and all their features
20:46:20 <Karen> ...and how to uniquely identify formats
20:46:31 <Karen> ...and provide info about playback system capabilities to browser
20:46:42 <Karen> ...one thing important is to discuss privacy concerns such as fingerprinting
20:46:48 <Karen> ...and we need to keep in mind and find a solution
20:46:56 <Karen> ...that doesn't affect quality
20:47:03 <Karen> ...what is a good middle ground for both concerns
20:47:21 <Karen> ...last one is to avoid risk to interoperability due to fragmentation of features across browsers
20:47:31 <Karen> ...Another aspect we see a lot is to get more experts at the table
20:47:37 <Karen> ...talk about the technologies behind these formats
20:47:41 <Karen> ...come to W3C to discuss
20:47:54 <Karen> ...and alleviate IP fears that may stop them from participating
20:48:03 <Karen> ...we need both web experts and entertainment format experts
20:48:09 <Karen> ...we need the support and help from all of you
20:48:19 <Karen> ...happy to engage and be involved with all of this
20:48:33 <Karen> ...Summary: Current challenges with advanced media formats
20:48:43 <Karen> ...new media innovations are emerging which W3C should address
20:48:48 <Karen> ...why this new CG
20:48:57 <Karen> ...discuss how to improve quality of experience
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20:49:13 <Karen> ...engage experts and companies behind formats and alleviate IP concerns
20:49:32 <Karen> ...We don't have all the answers yet, but looking forward to fruitful discussions and how to address
20:49:36 <Karen> ...thank you for listening
20:49:46 <Karen> ...I will make sure I can share those slides after the meeting
20:49:58 <Karen> ...Do you agree or disagree with what we presented
20:50:01 <Karen> ...what are challenges
20:50:07 <Karen> Pat: we have been talking with a lot of you
20:50:27 <Karen> ...we are not looking at this just as a video problem, pixels, but also audio
20:50:34 <Karen> ...and we represent the content community
20:51:25 <Karen> ...can we take web to the next level to better integrate
20:51:25 <Karen> ...thanks to Alan Bird, Chris Needham in ME IG
20:51:25 <Karen> ...is this a topic of interest?
20:51:25 <Karen> ...your silence is assent?
20:51:30 <Karen> David Singer: ChrisN, could you give us a background of what is in scope in groups we already have
20:51:45 <Karen> ChrisN: capability detection for different media formats; and API in the WG
20:51:55 <Karen> ...see if gaps there for detection of support for format
20:52:18 <Karen> ...for HDR there is another CG where we have color experts developing support for how you composite color into a canvas
20:52:24 <Karen> ...for media production, we haven't started anything
20:52:31 <Karen> ...we ran workshop last year, got interest
20:53:23 <Karen> ...and we are really interest to set something for web-based production tools to the cloud
20:53:23 <Karen> David: not sure
20:53:23 <Karen> ChrisN: I think that covers it
20:53:23 <Karen> Alan: anything, ChrisL that is not being covered?
20:53:23 <Karen> Chris_Lilley: three values, normal, wide, and ridiculously wide
20:53:32 <Karen> ...SRGB, @ and 2020
20:53:40 <Karen> Pat: there is a rec
20:53:47 <Karen> ChrisL: that is the point of the joke about 2020
20:53:50 <cpn> s/@/P3/
20:53:57 <Karen> ...there needs to be a finer grade support for detection. lumens in the room
20:54:04 <Karen> ...cannot do turn
20:54:22 <Karen> ...people want to see content, cannot expect people to be sitting in dark rooms the whole time
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20:54:32 <Karen> Pat: open standards, commercial solutions; how do we thread the needle
20:54:34 <kaz> q+
20:55:25 <Karen> ...the reason we are here
20:55:25 <Karen> ...at least in one area, there are gaps in how things are specified
20:55:25 <Karen> ...by staying true to IPR rules of W3C but make a better solution
20:55:25 <Karen> ...for Audio, there are discussions at Frauenhofer
20:55:25 <Karen> ack Kaz
20:55:26 <Karen> KazA: team contact for WoT
20:55:36 <Karen> ...wondering if we want to think about object audio, 3D video and @
20:55:43 <Karen> ...seems that scope is broader than audio format
20:55:53 <Karen> ...do you want to think about a bit broader use cases as well?
20:55:57 <Karen> Pat; let me take that
20:56:05 <Karen> ...I am a believer in crawl, walk, run
20:56:11 <Karen> ...we have issues in 2D HDR
20:56:15 <chris> s/t;/t:
20:56:17 <Karen> ...if XR, AR and 3D
20:56:19 <Karen> ...so much going on
20:56:27 <Karen> ...we are trying to see what is going to happen
20:56:32 <Karen> ...cannot even say Metaverse now
20:57:25 <Karen> ...let's fix ecosystem as it is
20:57:25 <Karen> ...all these new audio formats
20:57:25 <Karen> ..let's do a solution that works for everybody
20:57:25 <Karen> ...and we'll all scratch our heads with metaverse because there are a lot of pixels
20:57:25 <Karen> ...Timo was offering some ideas
20:57:26 <Karen> Timo: yes, these goals need to be reachable
20:57:26 <Karen> ...there are interesting opportunities
20:57:28 <Karen> ...to keep in mind
20:57:32 <kaz> s/for WoT/for ME and WoT/
20:57:39 <Karen> ChrisL: you asked if appropriate to form a CG?
20:57:44 <Karen> ...yes, because we don't have agreement
20:57:49 <Karen> ...at this stage, it's right
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20:58:03 <Karen> Timo: yes, we want to go from stand still to crawl
20:58:05 <marie> present+
20:58:08 <kaz> s/and @/and geospatial mapping, etc., as well/
20:58:15 <Karen> Pat: what is not clear to us, is where would we go if there were proposals to be made
20:58:18 <chris> s/agreement/agreement on a solution/
20:58:23 <Karen> ...you have audio, imaging, a number of groups
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20:58:56 <kaz> s/..let's/...let's/
20:59:26 <Karen> Alan: assuming we can move ahead, we would find someone on the team
20:59:26 <Karen> ...standards need to be containable and deliverable
20:59:26 <Karen> ...people like Kaz and ChrisL, are good at saying where each thing needs to go and how to collaborate together
20:59:26 <Karen> ...for example, M&E and Timed Text
20:59:27 <Karen> ...so that is where expertise of tech team comes into play to help guide things
20:59:43 <Karen> ...we would want CG to discuss, build prototypes, and do incubation to see if it even works
20:59:50 <Karen> ...do we have the right five questions answered
21:00:01 <riju> q+
21:00:08 <Karen> ....to do in an easier, more relaxed environment, and then we will decide the right next step where to take it
21:00:30 <Karen> ...if it is ready for standardization, might go to Audio, but if needs more incubation could go to M&E IG
21:01:25 <Karen> ChrisN: could be very obvious stuff
21:01:25 <Karen> ...follow the necessary Github issues and we can evaluate it straight away
21:01:25 <Karen> David: ChrisL was talking about batting around solutions, but what are the questions
21:01:25 <Karen> ...thinking about formats
21:01:25 <Karen> ...oh, the compression format; clearly not that
21:01:31 <Karen> ...even visual size, HDR, color format, channel couont
21:01:38 <Karen> ...if audio monostereo
21:01:43 <Karen> ...or bigger questions
21:01:54 <Karen> ...kind of soft; we don't have a good language for talking about them
21:02:00 <Karen> ...and sometimes have to be codec specific
21:02:17 <Karen> Pat: HDR formats; you say codec, I think ABC, ABS, AB1 compression codecs
21:02:27 <Karen> ....in terms of image formats, the image is separate from the codec
21:02:33 <Karen> ...sometimes have codec separate from the format
21:03:24 <Karen> ...we have run into experiences
21:03:24 <Karen> ...so we want to ID the problem
21:03:24 <Karen> ...so our understanding is the CGs surface the problems, where the WGs solve the problems
21:03:24 <Karen> ...so success means we can identify the problems with enough specificity
21:03:25 <Karen> ...and there may be multiple
21:03:30 <Karen> ...audio may be different from video
21:03:36 <Karen> @: probably not
21:03:41 <Karen> ...may be some things specific to web audio
21:03:49 <Karen> ...but Media WG would be the right place to work on these things
21:04:04 <Karen> ChrisN: other thing is W3C specifications don't mandate which codecs to support
21:04:11 <Karen> Pat: you mean compression codecs?
21:04:17 <Karen> ChrisN: codecs and formats
21:04:25 <Karen> Timo: all properties going through a certain use experience
21:04:32 <Karen> ...non linearity, color experience
21:04:55 <cpn> s/@:/Eric_Carlson:/
21:05:25 <Karen> ...all these properties that a rendering engine wants to get best image quality
21:05:25 <Karen> ...and id display devices to provide best experience
21:05:25 <Karen> ...format
21:05:25 <Karen> ...be more precise
21:05:25 <Karen> DavidS: you used an important work, rendering
21:05:30 <Karen> ...in '90s it was ok to ask what size it was in
21:05:35 <Karen> ...and you could assume audio was in
21:05:47 <Karen> ...and assume @ but other things out of scope
21:05:55 <Karen> ...or just black art and the platforms can deal with it
21:06:11 <Karen> ...that attitude is out of date for two decades but there are residuals of the rendering format
21:06:16 <chris> s/work/word
21:06:20 <Karen> Timo: we have not thought about finger printing
21:06:27 <Karen> ...which I learned about in a W3C meeting
21:06:58 <tguilbert> q?
21:07:24 <Karen> ...we are happy to learn about those challenges and find solutions
21:07:24 <Karen> ...we want to find a similar level of experience to TVs
21:07:24 <Karen> ...and see what the roadblocks are
21:07:24 <Karen> Pat: not to jump into solution space
21:07:24 <Karen> ...in experience we have had
21:07:24 <Karen> ...we learned early on, can be SDR and all flavors of HDR
21:07:28 <Karen> ...the more we specific, easier for downstream device to know what to do, and helps with privacy issues
21:07:37 <Karen> ...when end user knows, better experience in cloud
21:07:44 <Karen> ...it's a back and forth issue
21:07:58 <Karen> ...if group agrees, we'll go back and start to point out gaps from imaging and audio side
21:08:02 <Karen> Rick: thanks
21:08:03 <dsinger> ack riju
21:08:09 <Karen> ...I work at intersection of @
21:08:15 <Karen> ...what is exact thing you see as a gap
21:08:20 <Karen> ...like JPEG excel
21:08:35 <chris> s/exel/XL
21:08:40 <dsinger> s/excel/XL/
21:08:42 <cpn> s/@/browser and camera capture/
21:09:07 <eeeps> q+
21:09:24 <Karen> ...or looking at cross processing, image process, post processing on the browser?
21:09:24 <Karen> ...not being able to uniquely ID the source content
21:09:24 <Karen> ...that creates problems in one case we have to work around
21:09:24 <Karen> ...I would not go into too much of the problem space today; that is an issue
21:09:24 <Karen> ...current solutions don't work in all cases
21:09:25 <Karen> ...we'll come back with more
21:09:25 <Karen> ...nothing to do with the compression codecs
21:09:25 <Karen> ...for Dolby, we are codec agnostic
21:09:30 <cpn> q?
21:09:37 <Karen> ...but the format itself for proper decoding
21:09:51 <Karen> ...we are forced to work with browser implementers to come up with one-off solutions
21:10:00 <Karen> Rick: you want more metadata to be shown?
21:10:17 <Karen> Pat: yes, I never met "a data" I didn't like [jokes]
21:10:27 <Karen> ...old world of NTSC, production and playback were identical
21:10:33 <Karen> ...all kinds of headaches with SDR and matching
21:11:25 <Karen> ...solution will come down to better ways to ID the browser
21:11:25 <Karen> ...better embracing without violating rules of W3C
21:11:25 <Karen> ...and doing commercial formats
21:11:25 <Karen> EricP: can you talk about what is missing in media capabilities
21:11:25 <Karen> ...if I understand correctly
21:11:36 <cpn> scribe+ cpn
21:11:45 <chris> https://www.w3.org/TR/media-capabilities/
21:11:45 <Karen> Pat: having more unique ways to describe format types
21:11:54 <Karen> ...talk about color primaries, EOTFs
21:12:12 <Karen> ...not enough that you can ID what level in a certain formats
21:12:17 <Karen> ...causes all kinds of formats
21:12:25 <Karen> ...not to push on solutions, but maybe it's an identifier
21:12:28 <Karen> ...this is a 27.8
21:13:05 <cpn> q+
21:13:12 <cpn> ack eeeps
21:13:25 <Karen> ...in SMTPE we have a registry to id content types
21:13:25 <Karen> ...that metadata
21:13:25 <Karen> ...that also extends to the audio formats
21:13:25 <Karen> ...in an increasingly diverse world would be step one
21:13:25 <Karen> ...that simple step would be a big step forward
21:13:25 <Karen> ...without violating rules of proprietary formats
21:13:26 <Karen> ...and without violating fingerprinting of user
21:13:29 <riju> https://www.w3.org/TR/webcodecs-codec-registry/#video-codec-registry https://www.w3.org/TR/media-capabilities/#hdrmetadatatype : Something more and more detailed ?
21:13:32 <Karen> Pat: digress on fingerprint discussion
21:13:38 <Karen> ...need for a @2.0
21:13:40 <Karen> ...end device
21:13:46 <Karen> ...depends upon population
21:13:52 <chris> s/@/EDID/
21:13:53 <dsinger> s/@2.0/EDID2.0/
21:13:55 <Karen> ...more data, you can ID and Ndevices
21:14:04 <Karen> ...let's say more about the content and then let the browsers deal with it
21:14:15 <Karen> ChrisN: Riju just pointed to relevant types
21:14:21 <Karen> ...references SMPTE specs
21:14:24 <Karen> ...question I have
21:14:37 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
21:14:44 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:14:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-audiofmts-minutes.html kaz
21:15:24 <Karen> ...talking about support for proprietary formats, what kind of identifiers would we introduce?
21:15:24 <Karen> ...do we reference out to other standards bodies, or is W3C place to define them?
21:15:24 <Karen> ...or do we expect them to come from other standards bodies
21:15:24 <Karen> Pat: I was thinking it was W3C
21:15:24 <Karen> ..maybe you point to another entity like CTA
21:15:25 <Karen> ...and they create a registry and W3C points to it
21:15:33 <Karen> ...we are jumping to solution space already
21:15:39 <Karen> David: what makes things at registries hard
21:15:46 <Karen> ...they tend to be binary
21:15:53 <Karen> ...but much of rendering is not binary question
21:16:01 <kaz> i/let's do some intro/scribenick: Karen/
21:16:03 <Karen> ...I will send to stereo, or adjust to dynamic range if I need to
21:16:09 <kaz> i/let's do some intro/topic: Introduction/
21:16:11 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:16:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-audiofmts-minutes.html kaz
21:16:15 <Karen> ...not simple binary questions any longer
21:16:28 <Karen> ...which results in best effect for the user and the best representation of the author's intent
21:16:33 <Karen> ...and it becomes a much harder problem
21:17:06 <kaz> meeting: Audiovisual Media Formats for Browsers Community Group
21:17:24 <Karen> ChrisL: let's say it has this and this, PQ, transfer function
21:17:24 <Karen> ...then it also has to say Rec2020, using RGB, etc. and are you really saying you can do any combination of these things
21:17:24 <Karen> ...if it's HOG2100, then I can do that
21:17:43 <Karen> @: I can do that but you can send me a smaller format and would be same from user perspective
21:17:48 <Karen> Pat: we are at crawling now
21:17:51 <chris> s/HOG/HLG
21:17:56 <cpn> s/@/Eric_Carlson/
21:18:00 <Karen> ...next step is we can come back with some problem cases
21:18:06 <Karen> ...I don't want to boil the ocean
21:18:17 <Karen> ...I think there is a delta we can bring without too much complexity
21:18:24 <Karen> ...maybe things on audio and video sides
21:18:37 <cpn> q?
21:18:37 <chris> q?
21:18:40 <cpn> ack cpn
21:18:48 <kaz> i/We made some slides/topic: What to do?/
21:18:50 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:18:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-audiofmts-minutes.html kaz
21:19:20 <tguilbert> s/Gilbert/Guilbert
21:19:25 <Karen> .,..we are re-introducing issue because we see implementation problems
21:19:25 <Karen> David: what could we express in the markup that allows UA and browser to choose alternative that allows the best effect
21:19:25 <Karen> ...and not download the 202.2 format when it's only stereo
21:19:28 <Karen> Timo: one thing we are thinking about is what are the options available
21:19:41 <Karen> ...can we tell our renderer how to make use of it; is there one; does browser know that
21:19:48 <riju> q+
21:19:48 <Karen> ...find an elegant way with a small footprint
21:19:56 <Karen> ...these are desirable solutions
21:20:08 <Karen> ...we are not saying it needs to be this way, but to discuss what is possible
21:20:27 <Karen> Riju: I introduced to browsers six years ago, and is not shipped because there were not use cases
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21:20:53 <chris> use case is dynamic tone mapping of hdr content
21:21:24 <Karen> ...I can go back to team and we can ship within this year
21:21:24 <Karen> ...sensors from browsers helps you get job down
21:21:24 <Karen> ...it has been behind the flag for six years
21:21:24 <Karen> Pat: it is already implemented in millions of TVs based on PQ
21:21:24 <Karen> Timo: could be an argument that we have an application
21:21:29 <Karen> ...we could use that right away if it were available, and others could use it
21:21:48 <Karen> Pat; I think next step is to come back from some very real problems that cause gaps in implementations
21:22:08 <Karen> ...and Pat's implementation, we need to have a unique identifier at least in the imaging space
21:22:24 <kaz> chair: Timo, Pat
21:22:28 <Karen> ...codecs are find but for HDR use cases, a unique identifier would likely solve the current generation of problems
21:22:53 <riju> Intel uses LACE (with ALS) to optimize display https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/graphics/LACE_Graphics_Feature.pdf
21:23:24 <Karen> ...if we can solve basic problem for video and audio
21:23:24 <Karen> Cyril: can you define a unique identifier, what can you not do today?
21:23:24 <Karen> Pat; have to go back to the guys on what proper information they need
21:23:24 <Karen> ChrisL: you have some content shift in 2020 container
21:23:26 <Karen> ....massive in P3
21:23:34 <wseltzer> s/massive/mastered/
21:23:37 <Karen> ...not on the list of color spaces and cannot describe it
21:23:40 <cpn> s/do today/do with CSCP today/
21:23:43 <Karen> Cyril: didn't Apple push it?
21:23:49 <Karen> David: I think we made a mistake in industry
21:23:53 <cyril> s/CSCP/CICP/
21:24:01 <Karen> ...we realized that just doing coding format isn't enough
21:24:07 <Karen> ...we started to add individual pieces of info
21:24:16 <Karen> ...that don't make sense in all the combination of values
21:24:24 <Karen> ...what I think the media apps are trying to tell us
21:25:25 <Karen> ...be better off with a profile for consumption side so you get interop
21:25:25 <Karen> ...you end up with intrusive probing and all kinds of implementations
21:25:25 <Karen> Pat: regarding profiles
21:25:25 <Karen> ...that is indeed how we do it; profiles based on the compression codec
21:25:25 <Karen> ...issues of backwards compatable, HLG
21:25:35 <Karen> ...not go to that level of details, but not all browsers have same level of content
21:25:40 <Karen> ...but today it's a guessing game
21:25:47 <Karen> ...we should come back with specific examples
21:25:55 <Karen> ...and maybe it isn't getting down to a format type
21:26:01 <Karen> ...that is certainly one approach
21:26:06 <Karen> Alan: maybe the next steps
21:26:13 <Karen> ...CG needs to get formed crisper
21:26:15 <Karen> ...we need a chair
21:26:22 <Karen> ...and someone needs to set up the Github repo
21:26:25 <Karen> ...I get lost
21:26:33 <Karen> ...in doing that
21:27:25 <Karen> ...that is our primary work space; get the email list going
21:27:25 <Karen> ChrisN: the group is created, it has a mailing list, but it doesn't have Github
21:27:25 <Karen> Kaz: talk with Ian Jacobs, CG contact
21:27:36 <Karen> Alan; then you can start collecting these issues; decide on cadence; set your priorities
21:27:46 <Karen> ...since it's a community-driven thing
21:28:01 <Karen> Kaz: I am team contact for WGs, but we need to talk to IJ about setting things up
21:28:05 <Karen> ...but I can help
21:28:17 <tguilbert> s/Alan;/Alan:
21:28:17 <Karen> Alan: CGs don't have a specific team contact
21:28:26 <Karen> ...CGs don not have team resources assigned
21:28:30 <Karen> ChrisL: we can help
21:28:33 <Karen> Pat: thank you
21:29:25 <Karen> David: but not end up with overlap in IG and CG
21:29:25 <Karen> ...not discuss same things, so discuss with ChrisN
21:29:25 <Karen> Timo: yes, we have done that; boil down the scope
21:29:25 <Karen> Pat: and Chris helped us with the name
21:29:25 <Karen> ...Gethub sounds good for us
21:29:32 <Karen> ...what is a typical cadence for CGs
21:29:36 <cyril> s/Gethub/GitHub/
21:29:37 <dsinger_> s/Gethub/GitHub/
21:29:45 <Karen> ChrisL: old style is emails, archive
21:30:03 <Karen> ...with GitHub you can continue to make changes in real time
21:30:20 <Karen> Chris: I see some groups having a GitHub organization
21:30:28 <Karen> ChrisL: we are happy hounds at the moment
21:30:51 <wseltzer> s/we are happy hounds/that sounds heavy/
21:31:24 <Karen> Alan: some groups have a monthly phone call
21:31:24 <Karen> ...or meet in between TPACs to do things F2F, but every group is autonomous
21:31:24 <Karen> ...you may want to meet monthly or more than that
21:31:24 <Karen> ...having GitHub available allows the work to progress in an offline mode
21:31:28 <Karen> ChrisN: only suggestion is if you propose to have a meeting, that we coordinate that so there is no overlap
21:31:35 <Karen> Pat: yes, I would coordinate with you
21:31:40 <Karen> ...how often does TPAC meet?
21:31:44 <Karen> Alan: once a year
21:31:50 <Karen> Pat: ok, once a year in the Fall
21:31:59 <Karen> David: Nothing to stop you from meeting with other groups
21:32:05 <Karen> ...you can have joint meetings during the year
21:32:17 <Karen> Alan: and if there is a natural place, like IAB where community might be there
21:32:22 <Karen> ...sometimes groups might meet there
21:32:28 <wseltzer> s/IAB/NAB/
21:32:32 <Karen> ...or have someone host a meeting somehwhere
21:32:58 <wseltzer> q+
21:33:24 <Karen> ...look to both Chrises and Kaz
21:33:24 <Karen> ...how many groups have charters?
21:33:24 <Karen> ChrisL: we need a charter
21:33:24 <Karen> Alan: It can just be a paragraph
21:33:24 <Karen> ChrisN: recommend using the charter template
21:33:24 <Karen> Pat: we create a charter?
21:33:30 <Karen> ChrisN: yes, puts more of a description to it
21:33:30 <wseltzer> q-
21:33:38 <Karen> Alan: and then David can get it into Apple
21:33:48 <Karen> Pat: far be it for me to speak for Apple or Netflix!
21:33:58 <Karen> ChrisN: Riju are you in the queue?
21:33:58 <cpn> ack riju
21:34:02 <Karen> Riju: no more quesitons yet
21:34:13 <Karen> Alan: does this look like something that is interesting to explore and makes sense?
21:34:25 <Karen> Cyril: I would like to come back to Pat and David's point about having identifiers
21:34:28 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/cg-charter CG Charter page
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21:35:25 <Karen> ...we have been ocilating in MPEG about codecs
21:35:25 <Karen> ...explosion of values
21:35:25 <Karen> ...and we have more and more test based consumption of media
21:35:25 <Karen> ...one task is how to structure these identifiers and how to align better with media capabilities
21:35:25 <Karen> ...I fear grow and grow every dimension
21:35:31 <Karen> ...where we just need to rationalize it
21:35:38 <Karen> DavidS: we have overloaded on tools
21:35:43 <Karen> ...and sometimes makes it creaky
21:35:52 <Karen> Timo: Is manifest a term in W3C?
21:35:58 <Karen> Cyril: i was referring to the latest manifest
21:36:10 <Karen> Pat: If we come back and show you the gaps, then we can talk about how to address them
21:36:19 <Karen> ...there is a GitHub in our future
21:36:28 <Karen> DavidS: and you could have a W3C Calendar
21:36:42 <cyril> s/test based/manifest-based/
21:36:57 <wseltzer> q+
21:37:23 <Karen> ChrisL: I just sent you a message for CG to get a GitHub
21:37:23 <Karen> Wendy: I hereby give promission
21:37:23 <Karen> Pat; thank you, Wendy
21:37:23 <Karen> ...Wolfgang, are you on?
21:37:23 <Karen> Pat: If we can break out the audio and imaging questions
21:37:24 <Karen> ...can be different topics on GitHub; I see them proceeding independently
21:37:35 <cyril> s/latest manifest/DASH manifest or HLS playlist/
21:37:35 <Karen> ChrisN: there is a labels feature to allow you to group things
21:37:42 <Karen> Pat: in terms of chairs, on imaging side
21:37:45 <Karen> ...Wolfgang
21:37:45 <wseltzer> s/promission/permission/
21:37:48 <Karen> ...so happy
21:37:56 <Karen> ...thinking we have two parallel tracks
21:38:01 <Karen> ...audio issues are somewhat different
21:38:10 <Karen> ...my proposal is to have two co-chairs
21:38:19 <Karen> ChrisL: you will need to sign the CG
21:38:21 <Karen> ack Wendy
21:38:29 <Karen> Wendy: as long as we are talking about joining the CG
21:38:55 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/community/av4browsers/ Audiovisual Media Formats for Browsers CG page
21:39:25 <Karen> ...and anyone who participates in GitHub should link to their W3C accounts
21:39:25 <Karen> ChrisL: it tells us what organization you are in
21:39:25 <Karen> Wendy: bureaucracy with a purpose
21:39:25 <Karen> Pat: Wolfgang, on the audio side
21:39:25 <Karen> ...you are looking so happy
21:39:25 <Karen> Wolfgang: a lot of good positive energy in the room
21:39:35 <Karen> Pat: and you are happy to cover the audio issues
21:39:40 <Karen> ...are you ok to take the lead?
21:39:46 <Karen> Wolfgang: yes, I would be happy to
21:40:07 <Karen> Pat: we had good discussions with ChrisN and Frauenhoffer this morning
21:40:11 <Karen> DavidS: work on charter
21:40:16 <wseltzer> q-
21:40:31 <Karen> ...would be helpful to specify what group will produce: proposed solutions, etc.
21:40:37 <kaz> q+
21:41:25 <Karen> Alan: you can propose solutions, but they cannot become standards
21:41:25 <Karen> ...if CG builds a prototype or something
21:41:25 <Karen> ...and we think this is a good enough starting point
21:41:25 <Karen> ...someone who is in a group needs to bring the expertise
21:41:25 <Karen> ...need the SME to go with the work
21:41:35 <Karen> DavidS: but group may ID crisp questions, and suggested directions for the group to pursue
21:41:44 <Karen> ...make a statement about what the charges are
21:41:49 <Karen> ...and look into some suggestions
21:41:58 <Karen> Pat: solutions sounds too "solutiony"
21:42:02 <Karen> ...identify "options
21:42:11 <Karen> ...and then go back to producing the standard
21:42:22 <Karen> DavidS: 90% is asking the right question
21:42:33 <kaz> q-
21:43:05 <kaz> (also wanted to suggest starting with problem statements, expectations, etc.)
21:43:25 <Karen> ChrisN: one of roles of the chairs is to be able to assess the consensus of the group
21:43:25 <Karen> ...maybe be awkward to combine role of proposing solutions and also chairing
21:43:25 <Karen> ...we should not just default into that
21:43:25 <Karen> Pat: yes, we have that at SMPTE
21:43:25 <Karen> ...our company policy is that chair's role is to faciltate
21:43:26 <Karen> ...we want a solution that works from everyone
21:43:27 <Karen> ...I can push on them
21:43:37 <Karen> ...hope there is enough excitement that there will be someone helping us
21:43:45 <Karen> Alan: And we can change the chair once we get started
21:43:54 <Karen> ...for an execution chair, we change to these individuals
21:43:59 <Karen> Pat: We welcome you as a chair
21:44:08 <Karen> ChrisN: I did not say this
21:44:24 <Karen> ...CG charter template has some words in it about how to choose and replace chairs
21:44:29 <Karen> Pat: I am interested to get work done
21:44:48 <Karen> ...as president of SMPTE, know it's about getting it done; it's a real world challenge
21:44:56 <Karen> ...Wolfgang did not know I would volunteer him
21:45:02 <Karen> ...For now, let's get it started
21:45:08 <Karen> ...try a bi-weekly cadence
21:45:14 <Karen> ChrisN: other groups meet monthly
21:45:29 <Karen> ...we have regular time slots during
21:45:54 <Karen> Cyril: May I suggest we meet not on a regular cadence? Just meet when we need to and do the work asynchronously
21:46:04 <Karen> DavidS: you can make asynchronous progress
21:46:08 <Karen> Alan: That could make sense
21:46:12 <kaz> q+
21:46:14 <Karen> ...when we all need to get together
21:46:20 <Karen> ...and not have it pre-scheduled
21:46:30 <Karen> Cyril: we can still have deadlines and push people
21:47:25 <Karen> ChrisL: it still has chairs pushing through the issues
21:47:25 <Karen> ...a different way of pushing peopleforward
21:47:25 <Karen> Pat: I am all in favor of not having meetings
21:47:25 <Karen> Kaz: clarify in charter how to make decision and consensus in the group, including having a meeting or not
21:47:26 <Karen> Pat: you don't have rules on consensus
21:47:30 <Karen> ChrisL: in general we avoid voting
21:47:46 <Karen> Kaz: similar to W3C process document, but decision making depends upon the group (CG)
21:47:58 <Karen> Pat: what about in a WG, is there a more formal process?
21:48:09 <Karen> ChrisL: we avoid voting unless to break a log jam
21:48:16 <Karen> Alan: only if stuck and cannot break it out
21:48:30 <Karen> ...and even then we have one more conversation to get to point of no objectiion
21:48:41 <chris> Voting https://www.w3.org/2021/Process-20211102/#Votes
21:49:01 <chris> Consensus building https://www.w3.org/2021/Process-20211102/#consensus-building
21:49:15 <kaz> s/(CG)/(this time the CG)/
21:49:26 <Karen> ...sometimes why things may take longer in W3C
21:49:26 <Karen> ...people in minority may go off and fork this
21:49:26 <Karen> ...and we're all about one web and one world
21:49:26 <Karen> Pat: Interesting, in SMPTE, you can object; have a way to resolve assent
21:49:30 <Karen> ChrisL: you can do a Formal Objection, but it is seen as a big gun
21:49:38 <Karen> DavidS: rough consensus in CGs is fine
21:49:52 <Karen> Pat: you try to get consensus if no one objects, but you have to ask
21:49:54 <Karen> ...so that's fine
21:50:03 <Karen> ...ChrisL, you will help us with GitHub
21:50:14 <Karen> ...you will send a template of a charter, ChrisN
21:50:21 <Karen> Alan: don't send me anything technical
21:51:25 <Karen> Pat: once we get GitHub set up, I will go back and get specific problem use case number one
21:51:25 <Karen> ...number two, and everyone can start commenting on hit
21:51:25 <Karen> s/hit/it
21:51:25 <Karen> ...until we need to meet F2F
21:51:25 <Karen> ChrisN: W3C has WebEx and Zoom
21:51:25 <Karen> ...whether CGs have access to W3C infrastructure
21:51:28 <Karen> ...we may need to provide our own
21:51:36 <Karen> Pat: We have some pretty easy technologies
21:51:39 <Karen> ...anything else?
21:51:41 <Karen> q?
21:51:45 <Karen> ack Kaz
21:51:52 <Karen> Pat: does anyone object to us proceeding
21:51:57 <Karen> Alan: Thank you everyone for your time
21:52:09 <Karen> ...Hopefully this will result in some good things
21:52:15 <Karen> Pat: thank you
21:52:23 <Karen> rrsagent, make minutes
21:52:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-audiofmts-minutes.html Karen
21:54:01 <kaz> rrsagent, make draft
21:54:01 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make draft', kaz.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:54:20 <kaz> s/rrsagent, make draft//
21:54:31 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:54:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/15-audiofmts-minutes.html kaz
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