IRC log of web3 on 2022-09-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:09:37 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-web3-irc
14:09:39 [Zakim]
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14:14:58 [dom]
Meeting: Where's the Web in Web3? - TPAC 2022 breakout
14:15:00 [dom]
Chair: Erik_Lagerway
14:15:02 [dom]
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/41a4acd9-7790-4743-9a2f-da9db7141766#agenda
14:15:04 [dom]
RRSAgent, make log public
14:15:06 [dom]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
14:19:08 [dom]
RRSAgent, stay
14:19:10 [dom]
Zakim, stay
14:19:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'stay', dom
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agenda+ breakout
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present+
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present Geun-Hyung Kim
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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rrsagent, pioneer?
23:34:12 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'pioneer'
23:34:30 [pchampin]
present+
23:34:33 [Ian]
present+
23:34:34 [jyasskin]
present+
23:34:36 [Ian]
present+ David_Turner
23:34:44 [fluffy]
present+ Cullen Jennings
23:34:48 [betehess]
present+
23:34:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-web3-minutes.html Ian
23:34:53 [igarashi]
present+
23:34:55 [Karen]
present+ Karen Myers
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23:35:20 [Ian]
scribe: Ian
23:35:32 [gkellogg]
present+ Gregg_Kellogg
23:35:39 [Ian]
present+ Karl_Carter
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agenda?
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present+
23:35:53 [Ian]
zakim, drop agenda 1
23:35:53 [Zakim]
agendum 1, breakout, dropped
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23:37:25 [Ian]
present+ Alex_Lakatos
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p+
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present+
23:38:12 [Ian]
Erik: Any objections to recording?
23:38:21 [Ian]
[No objections heard]
23:38:50 [Ian]
present+ Rossen_Atanassov
23:39:13 [Ian]
Alex: Thanks all, for coming. I also want to introduce Karl Carter who will speak to some of the topics here.
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23:40:18 [Ian]
[Alex introduces himself]
23:40:40 [Ian]
Alex: Would like to hear your expectations about Web3? What does it mean to you or is it just a swear word?
23:41:23 [Ian]
s/Alex:/Erik:
23:41:25 [Ian]
s/Alex:/Erik:
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23:42:22 [Ian]
Karl: Interested in young creators...I think of web3 as an intersection of crypto, web, ....
23:42:37 [Ian]
...how do you create new inclusive systems, including peer-to-peer monetization
23:43:16 [Ian]
....blockchain has been around for a while,
23:43:24 [Ian]
...but artists are taking note with the rise of NFTs
23:43:35 [Ian]
...the creator class has spearheaded a lot of that adoption.
23:43:53 [Ian]
...we think of web3 as creating new business models, enabled by this new tech
23:44:33 [Ian]
...we build a social media front end with a fintech background.
23:45:06 [Ian]
...to help creatives monetize their work; they are always looking for new ways
23:45:37 [Ian]
Erik: How have you implemented your platform?
23:45:50 [Karen]
q+ demo?
23:46:20 [Ian]
EriK: How did you choose various components? Are there standards opportunities?
23:46:39 [Ian]
Karl: I'm on the CTO so I won't dive into the tech details.
23:46:50 [Ian]
...I can connect you to Tawanda (the CTO)
23:46:53 [cel]
s/on /not /
23:47:05 [Ian]
...we looked at a lot of blockchains and chose Stellar
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...we chose social media because it is familiar.
23:47:55 [Ian]
...we built KYC into account creation
23:48:58 [Ian]
...existing technologies for cross-border payments did not meet our needs.
23:49:04 [laka]
+q
23:49:05 [Ian]
...so we turned to the Interledger Protocol.
23:49:32 [Ian]
Erik: Check out what snake nation is doing
23:49:45 [marie]
https://snakenation.co/
23:50:20 [Ian]
Erik: Open the floor to other views on web3
23:50:29 [Ian]
Erik: Here are some of my use cases....
23:50:45 [Uchi]
+q
23:50:55 [Ian]
...primarily in the early days of Web3 a lot had to do with converting US dollars to the token-du-moment as fast as possible.
23:51:16 [Ian]
...it was and remains clunky to convert fiat to a token
23:51:31 [Ian]
...most decentralized finance (defi) is happening on Ethereum today.
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...But Ethereum is doing a massive refactoring.
23:51:58 [Ian]
...they are moving away from Proof of Work to a Proof of State
23:52:06 [cel]
s/State/Stake/
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23:52:29 [Ian]
Erik: This is, to a large extent the genesis of Web3, where most apps are deployed.
23:52:34 [marie]
https://ethereum.org/en/
23:53:00 [Ian]
David_Turner: Could you briefly define Web3 (if not synonymous with blockchain)?
23:53:05 [ivan]
q?
23:53:16 [Ian]
Erik: Web3 is a collection of technology to connect "the Web" to blockchain.
23:53:57 [Ian]
-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web3 Web3 in Wikipedia
23:54:24 [Ian]
Quoting that: "Web3 (also known as Web 3.0[1][2][3]) is an idea for a new iteration of the World Wide Web which incorporates concepts such as decentralization, blockchain technologies, and token-based economics.[4] "
23:54:43 [pchampin]
q?
23:55:01 [Ian]
Erik: Web3 might involve transactions or proof of ownership.
23:55:36 [Ian]
...exchange of tokens in a distributed ledger, using Web as the UI
23:55:41 [Ian]
q?
23:55:59 [Ian]
Erik: My experience has been building Web 2/3 blockchain games
23:56:20 [Ian]
...they are strategy games. You have an NFT deployment (a bunch of JPEGS), then some game mechanics
23:56:44 [Ian]
...in our case we had 10K "goblins" that were put on the Ethereum blockchain.
23:57:02 [Ian]
...Ethereum "gas" (the cost for presenting a transaction) was at an all time high.
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...we had 1000s of users who wanted to purchase these NFTs. So we published a whitelist.
23:57:52 [Ian]
...and that cost multiple thousands of USD.
23:58:07 [Ian]
...we learned that doing this blockchain game on Ethereum would become untenable.
23:58:29 [Ian]
...we moved away from Ethereum as a result and moved to Polygon.
23:58:50 [Ian]
..Polygon is a side chain; didn't have the transactional fees that came with Ethereum.
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Erik: The movement is from web2 video games to web3 video games
00:00:23 [Ian]
...there are studios that are investing in and incorporating blockchain components in their games
00:00:30 [Ian]
...why would they do that?
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...the argument is that the items inside these games -- the economies in these games -- live in the games and that's it.
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...one advantage of using blockchain is that you can itemize each piece in the inventory (e.g., a new helmet or skin)
00:01:40 [Ian]
...can be extracted from the game and possibly ported to another game as an NFT
00:01:44 [jyasskin]
q?
00:01:45 [Ian]
...or sell it
00:02:08 [Ian]
ack dem
00:02:16 [Ian]
ack lak
00:02:45 [Ian]
AlexL: My question was going to be "what game mechanics need blockchain?" You may have answered my question. Games existed before blockchain.
00:02:49 [jyasskin]
q+ to ask concretely what web standards would be needed to help this
00:02:58 [Ian]
...is it necessary for the game to run on the blockchain?
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00:03:16 [Ian]
Erik: You don't need to run the game on the blockchain; the economy part is on the blockchain (the inventory). It's a hybrid model.
00:03:59 [Ian]
...there are some people who are suspect due to some scams in this space
00:04:05 [Ian]
q?
00:04:32 [Ian]
Erik: There are other aspects to games beyond the items. For example, in World of Warcraft, if you want to level up you pay.
00:04:53 [Ian]
...and those payments involve transaction fees.
00:05:23 [Ian]
ack Chi
00:05:28 [Ian]
ack Uch
00:05:38 [Ian]
Uchi: I wanted to add my view of Web3 and from a standards perspective.
00:06:15 [Ian]
...I think a connection between Web3 and Web2 includes DIDs and VCs.
00:06:57 [Ian]
...and Interledger protocol
00:07:50 [Ian]
...I see an opportunity to discuss standards in this space
00:08:31 [Ian]
erik: Work on "Web5" also seems relevant
00:08:45 [Ian]
ack jy
00:08:45 [Zakim]
jyasskin, you wanted to ask concretely what web standards would be needed to help this
00:09:03 [Ian]
jyasskin: What standards do you think are relevant here, and which need to be implemented in browsers?
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Erik: WebRTC ; signaling
00:09:56 [Ian]
...I would also agree with Uchi's mention of DID, VC
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00:11:51 [Karen]
scribenick: Karen
00:11:51 [Karen]
IJ: your game inventory example was helpful
00:11:51 [Karen]
...you can export/import these assets into other contexts
00:11:51 [Karen]
...in designing a game, were there other browser capabilities that you needed
00:12:04 [Karen]
...or do you leverage the browser for most elements of game, and put other elements into blockchain
00:12:13 [Karen]
...in your experience, what was the experience?
00:12:17 [Karen]
scribenick: Ian
00:12:33 [Ian]
Erik: We did not have guidance on how to do this hybrid thing securely, mitigate potential attacks.
00:12:52 [pchampin]
q+
00:13:12 [Ian]
Erik: We used existing Web2 for UI and linked it to blockchain via some decentralized and some centralized APIs.
00:13:38 [jyasskin]
q+ to mention web3.js
00:14:14 [Ian]
Erik: We may not need more standards; we may have more questions and need to learn
00:14:51 [Ian]
ack pch
00:15:23 [Ian]
pchampin: I heard here a definition of Web3 as glue between Web as we know it and blockchain...that's different from what I've read.
00:15:43 [Ian]
...what I've read is that the web as we know it is broken and not decentralized enough; so let's throw it away and create new technology.
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Erik: If I may, I think there was a "lofty aspiration" of Web3 initially, but that's not what's happened in practice.
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00:16:26 [Ian]
...nearly every form of Web3 app has some centralization tied to it.
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00:17:02 [gkellogg]
q+ to suggest we move on from using Web3 as a term
00:17:03 [Ian]
ack jyasskin
00:17:03 [Zakim]
jyasskin, you wanted to mention web3.js
00:17:19 [Ian]
jyasskin: One area of seen for web browser capability is to move web3.js into the browser.
00:17:42 [Ian]
...I would be hesitant to do that as a browser vendor if there is unclear governance and lots of fraud. How do we do this ethically?
00:18:05 [Ian]
Erik: I agree it will be difficult to move capabilities into the browser until we have more user protections.
00:18:12 [cel]
regarding the more lofty web3: https://fosdem.org/2022/schedule/track/web3_infrastructure/ https://jaygraber.medium.com/web3-is-self-certifying-9dad77fd8d81
00:18:39 [Ian]
Karl: I think technology is outpacing both user understanding and regulation.
00:20:17 [Ian]
...I think of Web3 as enabling new business models.
00:20:31 [Ian]
...others I think see it as an opportunity to stake a claim in an emerging Metaverse.
00:20:51 [Ian]
...I think there will continue to be evolution.
00:20:52 [javadch]
q+
00:21:08 [Ian]
jyasskin: What does blockchain get us? Why not use simpler technology?
00:21:41 [Ian]
Karl: Blockchain makes settlement faster, cheaper and more secure.
00:22:37 [Ian]
Erik: A lot of blockchains have learned from the mistakes of Ethereum. Fees are going down.
00:23:04 [Ian]
ack gk
00:23:05 [Zakim]
gkellogg, you wanted to suggest we move on from using Web3 as a term
00:23:18 [Ian]
gkellogg: I want to suggest that the community use another term besides Web3.
00:23:39 [Ian]
..it's not an inclusive term, or may be understood that way
00:23:43 [phila]
+1 to gkellogg
00:23:59 [Ian]
gkellogg: There's not a linear progression.
00:24:07 [Ian]
...maybe "blockchainweb"
00:24:27 [phila]
q+
00:24:29 [Ian]
ack javadch
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00:25:00 [Ian]
javadch: There are other related techs like Immersive that have a browser element but also ties to Web3
00:25:10 [Ian]
q?
00:25:29 [Ian]
Erik: I think the overlap between Web3 and the Metaverse will become more prolific
00:26:16 [Ian]
...how do economies work among avatars in a digital world?
00:26:22 [Ian]
q?
00:26:40 [phila]
q-
00:27:27 [Ian]
Ian: Next steps?
00:27:27 [jyasskin]
Tantek mentioned https://indieweb.org/Web_3.0 as a history of uses of "Web 3"
00:27:51 [Ian]
Erik: This breakout was just a starting point for thinking about this and standards.
00:28:18 [gkellogg]
+1 to Tantek for finding the history of Web3
00:28:51 [Ian]
Ian: Any interest in a CG?
00:29:08 [Ian]
Erik: It would be of interest to me (cf. ORTC->WebRTC)
00:29:11 [Ian]
q?
00:29:20 [Uchi]
q+
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00:30:21 [Ian]
Ivan: Suppose we solve the concern about security and scamming; does it make sense to standardize an API to blockchain when there are new blockchains minted every day?
00:30:39 [Ian]
ack Chi
00:30:49 [Ian]
Uchi: I wanted to give a +1 to a CG.
00:31:28 [Ian]
Erik: Regarding Ivan's question, I think there are technologies that had many options that ended up in one standard.
00:31:55 [Ian]
Ivan: What about ILP?
00:32:30 [Ian]
AlexL: Interledger only deals with the value stored in ledgers, not the information.
00:32:42 [Ian]
...you need to think about blockchain as 2 things.
00:32:49 [Ian]
...it's "CRUD" without the "UD"
00:33:00 [Ian]
...there are valid use cases for "CR" only such as key registries.
00:33:11 [Ian]
...some of these blockchains store value with a coin or token.
00:33:22 [Ian]
...ILP deals with moving the value.
00:33:57 [Ian]
...I don't think of ILP as bridging blockchains for data...ILP is just for bridging ledgers (accounts that store value)
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00:34:27 [jyasskin]
q+ to ask snakenation how we can help
00:35:00 [Ian]
jyasskin: I think that web3.js is ethereum based, so would only scale so far.
00:35:40 [Ian]
ack jyasskin
00:35:40 [Zakim]
jyasskin, you wanted to ask snakenation how we can help
00:35:52 [Ian]
jyasskin: It sounds like you are using Web3 to let people buy things from artists.
00:35:58 [Ian]
ack Uchi
00:36:22 [Ian]
jyasskin: The people reading posts provide money, platform provides money, etc.
00:36:37 [Ian]
..that's much more connected to Interledger than to the more general writing data to Ethereum.
00:37:05 [Ian]
Karl: We need smart contracts as well
00:37:16 [Ian]
jyasskin: How can browsers help you?
00:37:22 [Ian]
Karl: We're exploring that now.
00:37:32 [Ian]
...for example, we are fully mobile.
00:37:39 [Ian]
...so part of the answer is in PWAs.
00:38:07 [Ian]
Erik: Thank you all.
00:38:26 [Ian]
...there are probably a handful of blue chip blockchains.
00:38:42 [Ian]
...most of the daily new ones are derivative of the blue chip ones.
00:38:49 [Ian]
Karl: +1 to the CG
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Hi
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16:21:46 [cel]
RRSAgent, bye
16:21:46 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items