IRC log of web3 on 2022-09-14
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:09:37 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #web3
- 14:09:37 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-web3-irc
- 14:09:39 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #web3
- 14:14:58 [dom]
- Meeting: Where's the Web in Web3? - TPAC 2022 breakout
- 14:15:00 [dom]
- Chair: Erik_Lagerway
- 14:15:02 [dom]
- Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/41a4acd9-7790-4743-9a2f-da9db7141766#agenda
- 14:15:04 [dom]
- RRSAgent, make log public
- 14:15:06 [dom]
- RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
- 14:19:08 [dom]
- RRSAgent, stay
- 14:19:10 [dom]
- Zakim, stay
- 14:19:10 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'stay', dom
- 15:14:58 [dom]
- dom has joined #web3
- 16:13:31 [dom]
- agenda+ breakout
- 18:15:49 [dom]
- dom has joined #web3
- 20:15:05 [dom]
- dom has joined #web3
- 20:30:10 [dom]
- dom has joined #web3
- 20:55:38 [hyojin]
- hyojin has joined #web3
- 21:05:53 [tantek]
- tantek has joined #web3
- 21:07:02 [dom__]
- dom__ has joined #web3
- 21:52:59 [dom]
- dom has joined #web3
- 21:58:48 [tantek]
- tantek has joined #web3
- 23:14:04 [fluffy]
- fluffy has joined #web3
- 23:18:24 [ivan]
- ivan has joined #web3
- 23:20:19 [benoit]
- benoit has joined #web3
- 23:20:47 [cel]
- cel has joined #web3
- 23:22:25 [dom]
- dom has joined #web3
- 23:26:37 [igarashi]
- igarashi has joined #web3
- 23:26:49 [jyasskin]
- jyasskin has joined #web3
- 23:27:53 [SatoshiSakamori]
- SatoshiSakamori has joined #web3
- 23:30:08 [Sue]
- Sue has joined #web3
- 23:30:55 [Karen]
- Karen has joined #web3
- 23:30:56 [Geun-Hyung_Kim_]
- Geun-Hyung_Kim_ has joined #web3
- 23:30:56 [pchampin]
- pchampin has joined #web3
- 23:31:09 [Karen]
- present+
- 23:31:15 [erik]
- erik has joined #web3
- 23:31:23 [marie]
- marie has joined #web3
- 23:31:25 [Geun-Hyung_Kim_]
- present Geun-Hyung Kim
- 23:31:32 [ivan]
- present+
- 23:31:47 [marie]
- present+
- 23:32:08 [Uchi]
- Uchi has joined #web3
- 23:32:08 [cel]
- present+
- 23:32:18 [Uchi]
- present+
- 23:32:28 [ayui]
- ayui has joined #web3
- 23:32:34 [toshiaki-koike_]
- toshiaki-koike_ has joined #web3
- 23:32:47 [betehess]
- betehess has joined #web3
- 23:34:04 [Ian]
- Ian has joined #web3
- 23:34:12 [Ian]
- rrsagent, pioneer?
- 23:34:12 [RRSAgent]
- I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'pioneer'
- 23:34:30 [pchampin]
- present+
- 23:34:33 [Ian]
- present+
- 23:34:34 [jyasskin]
- present+
- 23:34:36 [Ian]
- present+ David_Turner
- 23:34:44 [fluffy]
- present+ Cullen Jennings
- 23:34:48 [betehess]
- present+
- 23:34:50 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-web3-minutes.html Ian
- 23:34:53 [igarashi]
- present+
- 23:34:55 [Karen]
- present+ Karen Myers
- 23:35:11 [gkellogg]
- gkellogg has joined #web3
- 23:35:20 [Ian]
- scribe: Ian
- 23:35:32 [gkellogg]
- present+ Gregg_Kellogg
- 23:35:39 [Ian]
- present+ Karl_Carter
- 23:35:42 [javadch]
- javadch has joined #web3
- 23:35:42 [Ian]
- agenda?
- 23:35:42 [decentralgabe]
- decentralgabe has joined #web3
- 23:35:50 [decentralgabe]
- present+
- 23:35:53 [Ian]
- zakim, drop agenda 1
- 23:35:53 [Zakim]
- agendum 1, breakout, dropped
- 23:36:06 [deimidis]
- deimidis has joined #web3
- 23:36:40 [Kosuke_Koiwai]
- Kosuke_Koiwai has joined #web3
- 23:37:25 [Ian]
- present+ Alex_Lakatos
- 23:37:31 [javadch]
- p+
- 23:38:09 [benoit]
- present+
- 23:38:12 [Ian]
- Erik: Any objections to recording?
- 23:38:21 [Ian]
- [No objections heard]
- 23:38:50 [Ian]
- present+ Rossen_Atanassov
- 23:39:13 [Ian]
- Alex: Thanks all, for coming. I also want to introduce Karl Carter who will speak to some of the topics here.
- 23:39:26 [tantek]
- tantek has joined #web3
- 23:40:18 [Ian]
- [Alex introduces himself]
- 23:40:40 [Ian]
- Alex: Would like to hear your expectations about Web3? What does it mean to you or is it just a swear word?
- 23:41:23 [Ian]
- s/Alex:/Erik:
- 23:41:25 [Ian]
- s/Alex:/Erik:
- 23:41:30 [laka]
- laka has joined #web3
- 23:42:22 [Ian]
- Karl: Interested in young creators...I think of web3 as an intersection of crypto, web, ....
- 23:42:37 [Ian]
- ...how do you create new inclusive systems, including peer-to-peer monetization
- 23:43:16 [Ian]
- ....blockchain has been around for a while,
- 23:43:24 [Ian]
- ...but artists are taking note with the rise of NFTs
- 23:43:35 [Ian]
- ...the creator class has spearheaded a lot of that adoption.
- 23:43:53 [Ian]
- ...we think of web3 as creating new business models, enabled by this new tech
- 23:44:33 [Ian]
- ...we build a social media front end with a fintech background.
- 23:45:06 [Ian]
- ...to help creatives monetize their work; they are always looking for new ways
- 23:45:37 [Ian]
- Erik: How have you implemented your platform?
- 23:45:50 [Karen]
- q+ demo?
- 23:46:20 [Ian]
- EriK: How did you choose various components? Are there standards opportunities?
- 23:46:39 [Ian]
- Karl: I'm on the CTO so I won't dive into the tech details.
- 23:46:50 [Ian]
- ...I can connect you to Tawanda (the CTO)
- 23:46:53 [cel]
- s/on /not /
- 23:47:05 [Ian]
- ...we looked at a lot of blockchains and chose Stellar
- 23:47:18 [gkellogg]
- gkellogg has joined #web3
- 23:47:50 [Ian]
- ...we chose social media because it is familiar.
- 23:47:55 [Ian]
- ...we built KYC into account creation
- 23:48:58 [Ian]
- ...existing technologies for cross-border payments did not meet our needs.
- 23:49:04 [laka]
- +q
- 23:49:05 [Ian]
- ...so we turned to the Interledger Protocol.
- 23:49:32 [Ian]
- Erik: Check out what snake nation is doing
- 23:49:45 [marie]
- https://snakenation.co/
- 23:50:20 [Ian]
- Erik: Open the floor to other views on web3
- 23:50:29 [Ian]
- Erik: Here are some of my use cases....
- 23:50:45 [Uchi]
- +q
- 23:50:55 [Ian]
- ...primarily in the early days of Web3 a lot had to do with converting US dollars to the token-du-moment as fast as possible.
- 23:51:16 [Ian]
- ...it was and remains clunky to convert fiat to a token
- 23:51:31 [Ian]
- ...most decentralized finance (defi) is happening on Ethereum today.
- 23:51:37 [lg]
- lg has joined #web3
- 23:51:51 [Ian]
- ...But Ethereum is doing a massive refactoring.
- 23:51:58 [Ian]
- ...they are moving away from Proof of Work to a Proof of State
- 23:52:06 [cel]
- s/State/Stake/
- 23:52:18 [ivan]
- ivan has joined #web3
- 23:52:29 [Ian]
- Erik: This is, to a large extent the genesis of Web3, where most apps are deployed.
- 23:52:34 [marie]
- https://ethereum.org/en/
- 23:53:00 [Ian]
- David_Turner: Could you briefly define Web3 (if not synonymous with blockchain)?
- 23:53:05 [ivan]
- q?
- 23:53:16 [Ian]
- Erik: Web3 is a collection of technology to connect "the Web" to blockchain.
- 23:53:57 [Ian]
- -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web3 Web3 in Wikipedia
- 23:54:24 [Ian]
- Quoting that: "Web3 (also known as Web 3.0[1][2][3]) is an idea for a new iteration of the World Wide Web which incorporates concepts such as decentralization, blockchain technologies, and token-based economics.[4] "
- 23:54:43 [pchampin]
- q?
- 23:55:01 [Ian]
- Erik: Web3 might involve transactions or proof of ownership.
- 23:55:36 [Ian]
- ...exchange of tokens in a distributed ledger, using Web as the UI
- 23:55:41 [Ian]
- q?
- 23:55:59 [Ian]
- Erik: My experience has been building Web 2/3 blockchain games
- 23:56:20 [Ian]
- ...they are strategy games. You have an NFT deployment (a bunch of JPEGS), then some game mechanics
- 23:56:44 [Ian]
- ...in our case we had 10K "goblins" that were put on the Ethereum blockchain.
- 23:57:02 [Ian]
- ...Ethereum "gas" (the cost for presenting a transaction) was at an all time high.
- 23:57:26 [cel12]
- cel12 has joined #web3
- 23:57:41 [Ian]
- ...we had 1000s of users who wanted to purchase these NFTs. So we published a whitelist.
- 23:57:52 [Ian]
- ...and that cost multiple thousands of USD.
- 23:58:07 [Ian]
- ...we learned that doing this blockchain game on Ethereum would become untenable.
- 23:58:29 [Ian]
- ...we moved away from Ethereum as a result and moved to Polygon.
- 23:58:50 [Ian]
- ..Polygon is a side chain; didn't have the transactional fees that came with Ethereum.
- 23:59:34 [tantek_]
- tantek_ has joined #web3
- 23:59:55 [Ian]
- Erik: The movement is from web2 video games to web3 video games
- 00:00:23 [Ian]
- ...there are studios that are investing in and incorporating blockchain components in their games
- 00:00:30 [Ian]
- ...why would they do that?
- 00:00:55 [Ian]
- ...the argument is that the items inside these games -- the economies in these games -- live in the games and that's it.
- 00:01:08 [ivan_]
- ivan_ has joined #web3
- 00:01:20 [Ian]
- ...one advantage of using blockchain is that you can itemize each piece in the inventory (e.g., a new helmet or skin)
- 00:01:40 [Ian]
- ...can be extracted from the game and possibly ported to another game as an NFT
- 00:01:44 [jyasskin]
- q?
- 00:01:45 [Ian]
- ...or sell it
- 00:02:08 [Ian]
- ack dem
- 00:02:16 [Ian]
- ack lak
- 00:02:45 [Ian]
- AlexL: My question was going to be "what game mechanics need blockchain?" You may have answered my question. Games existed before blockchain.
- 00:02:49 [jyasskin]
- q+ to ask concretely what web standards would be needed to help this
- 00:02:58 [Ian]
- ...is it necessary for the game to run on the blockchain?
- 00:02:58 [javadch]
- javadch has joined #web3
- 00:03:16 [Ian]
- Erik: You don't need to run the game on the blockchain; the economy part is on the blockchain (the inventory). It's a hybrid model.
- 00:03:59 [Ian]
- ...there are some people who are suspect due to some scams in this space
- 00:04:05 [Ian]
- q?
- 00:04:32 [Ian]
- Erik: There are other aspects to games beyond the items. For example, in World of Warcraft, if you want to level up you pay.
- 00:04:53 [Ian]
- ...and those payments involve transaction fees.
- 00:05:23 [Ian]
- ack Chi
- 00:05:28 [Ian]
- ack Uch
- 00:05:38 [Ian]
- Uchi: I wanted to add my view of Web3 and from a standards perspective.
- 00:06:15 [Ian]
- ...I think a connection between Web3 and Web2 includes DIDs and VCs.
- 00:06:57 [Ian]
- ...and Interledger protocol
- 00:07:50 [Ian]
- ...I see an opportunity to discuss standards in this space
- 00:08:31 [Ian]
- erik: Work on "Web5" also seems relevant
- 00:08:45 [Ian]
- ack jy
- 00:08:45 [Zakim]
- jyasskin, you wanted to ask concretely what web standards would be needed to help this
- 00:09:03 [Ian]
- jyasskin: What standards do you think are relevant here, and which need to be implemented in browsers?
- 00:09:18 [QingAn]
- QingAn has joined #web3
- 00:09:29 [Ian]
- Erik: WebRTC ; signaling
- 00:09:56 [Ian]
- ...I would also agree with Uchi's mention of DID, VC
- 00:10:01 [Karlito218]
- Karlito218 has joined #web3
- 00:11:51 [Karen]
- scribenick: Karen
- 00:11:51 [Karen]
- IJ: your game inventory example was helpful
- 00:11:51 [Karen]
- ...you can export/import these assets into other contexts
- 00:11:51 [Karen]
- ...in designing a game, were there other browser capabilities that you needed
- 00:12:04 [Karen]
- ...or do you leverage the browser for most elements of game, and put other elements into blockchain
- 00:12:13 [Karen]
- ...in your experience, what was the experience?
- 00:12:17 [Karen]
- scribenick: Ian
- 00:12:33 [Ian]
- Erik: We did not have guidance on how to do this hybrid thing securely, mitigate potential attacks.
- 00:12:52 [pchampin]
- q+
- 00:13:12 [Ian]
- Erik: We used existing Web2 for UI and linked it to blockchain via some decentralized and some centralized APIs.
- 00:13:38 [jyasskin]
- q+ to mention web3.js
- 00:14:14 [Ian]
- Erik: We may not need more standards; we may have more questions and need to learn
- 00:14:51 [Ian]
- ack pch
- 00:15:23 [Ian]
- pchampin: I heard here a definition of Web3 as glue between Web as we know it and blockchain...that's different from what I've read.
- 00:15:43 [Ian]
- ...what I've read is that the web as we know it is broken and not decentralized enough; so let's throw it away and create new technology.
- 00:15:55 [gkellogg]
- gkellogg has joined #web3
- 00:16:16 [Ian]
- Erik: If I may, I think there was a "lofty aspiration" of Web3 initially, but that's not what's happened in practice.
- 00:16:21 [phila]
- phila has joined #web3
- 00:16:26 [Ian]
- ...nearly every form of Web3 app has some centralization tied to it.
- 00:16:46 [igarashi]
- igarashi has joined #web3
- 00:17:02 [gkellogg]
- q+ to suggest we move on from using Web3 as a term
- 00:17:03 [Ian]
- ack jyasskin
- 00:17:03 [Zakim]
- jyasskin, you wanted to mention web3.js
- 00:17:19 [Ian]
- jyasskin: One area of seen for web browser capability is to move web3.js into the browser.
- 00:17:42 [Ian]
- ...I would be hesitant to do that as a browser vendor if there is unclear governance and lots of fraud. How do we do this ethically?
- 00:18:05 [Ian]
- Erik: I agree it will be difficult to move capabilities into the browser until we have more user protections.
- 00:18:12 [cel]
- regarding the more lofty web3: https://fosdem.org/2022/schedule/track/web3_infrastructure/ https://jaygraber.medium.com/web3-is-self-certifying-9dad77fd8d81
- 00:18:39 [Ian]
- Karl: I think technology is outpacing both user understanding and regulation.
- 00:20:17 [Ian]
- ...I think of Web3 as enabling new business models.
- 00:20:31 [Ian]
- ...others I think see it as an opportunity to stake a claim in an emerging Metaverse.
- 00:20:51 [Ian]
- ...I think there will continue to be evolution.
- 00:20:52 [javadch]
- q+
- 00:21:08 [Ian]
- jyasskin: What does blockchain get us? Why not use simpler technology?
- 00:21:41 [Ian]
- Karl: Blockchain makes settlement faster, cheaper and more secure.
- 00:22:37 [Ian]
- Erik: A lot of blockchains have learned from the mistakes of Ethereum. Fees are going down.
- 00:23:04 [Ian]
- ack gk
- 00:23:05 [Zakim]
- gkellogg, you wanted to suggest we move on from using Web3 as a term
- 00:23:18 [Ian]
- gkellogg: I want to suggest that the community use another term besides Web3.
- 00:23:39 [Ian]
- ..it's not an inclusive term, or may be understood that way
- 00:23:43 [phila]
- +1 to gkellogg
- 00:23:59 [Ian]
- gkellogg: There's not a linear progression.
- 00:24:07 [Ian]
- ...maybe "blockchainweb"
- 00:24:27 [phila]
- q+
- 00:24:29 [Ian]
- ack javadch
- 00:24:32 [gkellogg]
- gkellogg has joined #web3
- 00:25:00 [Ian]
- javadch: There are other related techs like Immersive that have a browser element but also ties to Web3
- 00:25:10 [Ian]
- q?
- 00:25:29 [Ian]
- Erik: I think the overlap between Web3 and the Metaverse will become more prolific
- 00:26:16 [Ian]
- ...how do economies work among avatars in a digital world?
- 00:26:22 [Ian]
- q?
- 00:26:40 [phila]
- q-
- 00:27:27 [Ian]
- Ian: Next steps?
- 00:27:27 [jyasskin]
- Tantek mentioned https://indieweb.org/Web_3.0 as a history of uses of "Web 3"
- 00:27:51 [Ian]
- Erik: This breakout was just a starting point for thinking about this and standards.
- 00:28:18 [gkellogg]
- +1 to Tantek for finding the history of Web3
- 00:28:51 [Ian]
- Ian: Any interest in a CG?
- 00:29:08 [Ian]
- Erik: It would be of interest to me (cf. ORTC->WebRTC)
- 00:29:11 [Ian]
- q?
- 00:29:20 [Uchi]
- q+
- 00:29:37 [laka]
- laka has joined #web3
- 00:30:21 [Ian]
- Ivan: Suppose we solve the concern about security and scamming; does it make sense to standardize an API to blockchain when there are new blockchains minted every day?
- 00:30:39 [Ian]
- ack Chi
- 00:30:49 [Ian]
- Uchi: I wanted to give a +1 to a CG.
- 00:31:28 [Ian]
- Erik: Regarding Ivan's question, I think there are technologies that had many options that ended up in one standard.
- 00:31:55 [Ian]
- Ivan: What about ILP?
- 00:32:30 [Ian]
- AlexL: Interledger only deals with the value stored in ledgers, not the information.
- 00:32:42 [Ian]
- ...you need to think about blockchain as 2 things.
- 00:32:49 [Ian]
- ...it's "CRUD" without the "UD"
- 00:33:00 [Ian]
- ...there are valid use cases for "CR" only such as key registries.
- 00:33:11 [Ian]
- ...some of these blockchains store value with a coin or token.
- 00:33:22 [Ian]
- ...ILP deals with moving the value.
- 00:33:57 [Ian]
- ...I don't think of ILP as bridging blockchains for data...ILP is just for bridging ledgers (accounts that store value)
- 00:33:58 [gkellogg]
- gkellogg has joined #web3
- 00:34:21 [Moth]
- Moth has joined #web3
- 00:34:27 [jyasskin]
- q+ to ask snakenation how we can help
- 00:35:00 [Ian]
- jyasskin: I think that web3.js is ethereum based, so would only scale so far.
- 00:35:40 [Ian]
- ack jyasskin
- 00:35:40 [Zakim]
- jyasskin, you wanted to ask snakenation how we can help
- 00:35:52 [Ian]
- jyasskin: It sounds like you are using Web3 to let people buy things from artists.
- 00:35:58 [Ian]
- ack Uchi
- 00:36:22 [Ian]
- jyasskin: The people reading posts provide money, platform provides money, etc.
- 00:36:37 [Ian]
- ..that's much more connected to Interledger than to the more general writing data to Ethereum.
- 00:37:05 [Ian]
- Karl: We need smart contracts as well
- 00:37:16 [Ian]
- jyasskin: How can browsers help you?
- 00:37:22 [Ian]
- Karl: We're exploring that now.
- 00:37:32 [Ian]
- ...for example, we are fully mobile.
- 00:37:39 [Ian]
- ...so part of the answer is in PWAs.
- 00:38:07 [Ian]
- Erik: Thank you all.
- 00:38:26 [Ian]
- ...there are probably a handful of blue chip blockchains.
- 00:38:42 [Ian]
- ...most of the daily new ones are derivative of the blue chip ones.
- 00:38:49 [Ian]
- Karl: +1 to the CG
- 00:48:18 [pchampin]
- pchampin has joined #web3
- 01:28:19 [benoit]
- benoit has joined #web3
- 01:28:56 [tantek]
- tantek has joined #web3
- 02:28:17 [Creole_Queen]
- Creole_Queen has joined #web3
- 02:28:33 [Creole_Queen]
- Hi
- 02:44:38 [benoit]
- benoit has joined #web3
- 02:58:33 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #web3
- 06:33:21 [cel[m]]
- cel[m] has left #web3
- 13:59:46 [pchampin]
- pchampin has joined #web3
- 14:01:42 [benoit]
- benoit has joined #web3
- 15:02:20 [pchampin]
- pchampin has joined #web3
- 15:29:28 [gkellogg]
- gkellogg has joined #web3
- 15:32:19 [gkellogg_]
- gkellogg_ has joined #web3
- 15:33:55 [gkellog__]
- gkellog__ has joined #web3
- 15:35:52 [gkellogg_]
- gkellogg_ has joined #web3
- 15:47:14 [Karen]
- Karen has joined #web3
- 15:59:28 [gkellogg]
- gkellogg has joined #web3
- 16:02:32 [Ian]
- Ian has left #web3
- 16:05:37 [tantek]
- tantek has joined #web3
- 16:21:46 [cel]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 16:21:46 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items