IRC log of element-capture on 2022-09-14
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:05:13 [RRSAgent]
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- 14:05:13 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-element-capture-irc
- 14:05:15 [Zakim]
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- 14:08:39 [dom]
- Meeting: Element Capture - TPAC 2022 breakout
- 14:08:53 [dom]
- Chair: Elad_Alon
- 14:09:03 [dom]
- Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ee306db5-9954-4674-a61d-ff68498b4608#agenda
- 14:09:11 [dom]
- RRSAgent, make log public
- 14:09:19 [dom]
- RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
- 14:17:08 [dom]
- RRSAgent, stay
- 14:17:10 [dom]
- Zakim, stay
- 14:17:10 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'stay', dom
- 15:14:58 [dom]
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- 15:52:36 [englishm]
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- 16:12:25 [dom]
- agenda+ breakout
- 18:15:49 [dom]
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- 19:19:09 [jesup]
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- 19:19:25 [jesup]
- is there a zoom session for element capture?
- 19:19:37 [jesup]
- the link in the agenda led to an empty room
- 20:15:05 [dom]
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- 21:58:45 [lgombos]
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- 22:00:20 [mfoltzgoogle]
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- 22:00:25 [mfoltzgoogle]
- Present+ Mark_Foltz
- 22:00:44 [seukyoon-kang]
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- 22:01:11 [mfoltzgoogle]
- Slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/e/2PACX-1vSBwa1kvYKY14-nh3Wd523X7Nzy-fi-sBoplE4pBLGkOGBkTpR1u5hA5s2UDg4D1ICip6lYXA9bfKYl/pub?start=false&loop=false&delayms=3000
- 22:01:25 [seukyoon-kang]
- thank you!
- 22:01:54 [ericc]
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- 22:03:42 [mfoltzgoogle]
- zakim, start the meeting
- 22:03:42 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 22:03:44 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), mfoltzgoogle
- 22:04:19 [mfoltzgoogle]
- meeting: Element Capture
- 22:04:35 [mfoltzgoogle]
- zakim, meeting: Element Capture
- 22:04:35 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'meeting: Element Capture', mfoltzgoogle
- 22:05:32 [mfoltzgoogle]
- Scribenick: mfoltzgoogle
- 22:05:44 [jib]
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- 22:06:27 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladlon: Screenshot of me and Mark, docs can embed a videoconferencing app
- 22:06:44 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ...One of them captures a portion of the screen and transmits that remotely
- 22:07:23 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ...A couple of options, transfer stream to the video conferencing iframe
- 22:07:31 [mfoltzgoogle]
- rrsagent, generate minutes
- 22:07:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-element-capture-minutes.html mfoltzgoogle
- 22:07:50 [mfoltzgoogle]
- msw: In screen capture, for training videos, web app might capture a portion of the content area
- 22:07:55 [jib]
- Sorry I joined late. Is there a link to the slides?
- 22:08:08 [lyf]
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- 22:08:08 [mfoltzgoogle]
- jib: Slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/e/2PACX-1vSBwa1kvYKY14-nh3Wd523X7Nzy-fi-sBoplE4pBLGkOGBkTpR1u5hA5s2UDg4D1ICip6lYXA9bfKYl/pub?start=false&loop=false&delayms=3000
- 22:08:41 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ericc: Would occluded portion of the elements being captured? Danger of the user exposing information they cannot see
- 22:09:42 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: This can happen today, when users type input it can show up in the capture.
- 22:10:32 [mfoltzgoogle]
- <?>: In iOS, we have a mitigation that camera capture requires a preview
- 22:10:46 [jib]
- q+
- 22:11:21 [mfoltzgoogle]
- <?>: The concern is not malicious sites, but users knowing what they are sharing
- 22:12:18 [herre]
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- 22:12:24 [mfoltzgoogle]
- <jib>: Built on getDisplayMedia but also getViewportMedia, very different security properties. Which one?
- 22:12:38 [iclelland_]
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- 22:12:49 [iclelland_]
- q?
- 22:12:56 [jib]
- ack jib
- 22:12:57 [mfoltzgoogle]
- q- jib
- 22:13:28 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: Requires for getViewportMedia, requirements were difficult to comply with
- 22:13:38 [mfoltzgoogle]
- jib: Non-compliance not a good argument
- 22:14:22 [arthursonzogni]
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- 22:14:24 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: See if we can relax from getViewportMedia, but if we can't, then stick with it.
- 22:14:56 [youenn]
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- 22:14:57 [mfoltzgoogle]
- youenn: Trying to understand, is the interest to reduce requirements from gVM, or to fix the occlusion issue
- 22:14:58 [fluffy]
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- 22:15:22 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: Too early to stay, may not be possible, but it is an interesting topic to drive adoption
- 22:15:41 [mfoltzgoogle]
- rrsagent, generate minutes
- 22:15:41 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-element-capture-minutes.html mfoltzgoogle
- 22:16:04 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Two requirements for gVM: cross-origin isolation, and opt-in from document-policy
- 22:16:18 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Sounds like we could use it for element-level capture to reduce requirements
- 22:16:21 [mfoltzgoogle]
- q
- 22:16:46 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Document policy is sufficient, if others have ideas, lets discuss
- 22:17:56 [mfoltzgoogle]
- arthursonzogni: Seems sufficient from requirements
- 22:18:10 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Include iframes that does not include policy?
- 22:18:47 [mfoltzgoogle]
- iclelland_: With document-policy, I consent to be captured by this origin. All embedded frames also must consent or we don't allow it.
- 22:18:57 [mfoltzgoogle]
- arthursonzogni: Is there a race when creating iframes?
- 22:19:42 [mfoltzgoogle]
- iclelland_: We have a mode, similar to CSP-embedded. I require this policy on all frames I embed, if they don't comply, they don't load.
- 22:20:00 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Could be useful here, have to be careful with dynamic content.
- 22:20:02 [mfoltzgoogle]
- q
- 22:20:08 [jib]
- q+
- 22:20:21 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ack jib
- 22:20:47 [mfoltzgoogle]
- jib: Security requirements should be the same, iframe or div could be an element. To me the security requirements are the same
- 22:20:58 [herre]
- q+
- 22:21:07 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Requires cross-origin isolation, which prevents loading non-consenting documents
- 22:21:26 [ken]
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- 22:21:38 [masaki]
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- 22:22:12 [mfoltzgoogle]
- herre: Could be useful to talk about use cases enabled by more relaxed permissions.
- 22:22:24 [msw]
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- 22:22:35 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Some small part could be captured without the entire document.
- 22:22:59 [mfoltzgoogle]
- youenn: Iframe could impact size of 3p content. getVM seems like the right baseline. Figure out if we need to decrease security.
- 22:23:01 [jib]
- ack jib
- 22:23:03 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Always a hole.
- 22:23:05 [bajones]
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- 22:23:17 [mfoltzgoogle]
- herre: Worth trying.
- 22:23:20 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ack herre
- 22:23:26 [jib]
- q+
- 22:24:34 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: Find a way to isolate, to prevent data leakage. May need CSS to isolate rendering. Worth looking for it.
- 22:25:06 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... You've created content and you want to show ads. Ads doesn't want to be captured.
- 22:26:11 [mfoltzgoogle]
- youenn: These are two different projects. Two different specs. If you want to have it soon, do the security later.
- 22:26:20 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ack jib
- 22:27:20 [mfoltzgoogle]
- jib: Maybe an unpopular comment. Self-capture, at some point, creating a new render target for HTML.
- 22:27:56 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... We've backed in to a powerful feature. If an HTML app needs to capture video, then it's worth questioning whether the app can do it itself.
- 22:28:32 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: We have web developers asking for it. Google docs and meet, non-Google developers asking for it.
- 22:28:41 [youenn]
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- 22:30:02 [mfoltzgoogle]
- q
- 22:30:29 [fluffy]
- q+
- 22:30:42 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: Why shouldn't we do this? If we separate/stage those discussions, how do we make it accessible to more users.
- 22:31:37 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Why would we not want to provide this API.
- 22:32:34 [mfoltzgoogle]
- jib: Can these applications do it with canvas? If element capture requires a permission, would it meet the use case?
- 22:32:57 [ada]
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- 22:33:17 [mfoltzgoogle]
- youenn: Occluded content, there is a big difference with getViewportMedia. Will the user understand the difference between element capture and gVM?
- 22:34:24 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: For most applications, there is no difference between gVM and element capture. For malicious applications, the same issue.
- 22:34:34 [fluffy]
- q?
- 22:34:44 [mfoltzgoogle]
- youenn: The same prompt, but the user mitigation is different? From the user's point of view, inconsistent.
- 22:35:20 [mfoltzgoogle]
- youenn: If you scroll down, understood that it is not shared. In fact it is not the same thing.
- 22:35:33 [mfoltzgoogle]
- jib: With this new API, there is no "flashing."
- 22:36:02 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: You broke the page apart, could piece them back together. Machine could never see that.
- 22:36:43 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ack fluffy
- 22:37:29 [mfoltzgoogle]
- fluffy: Surprising that what is being captured is different from what the user is seeing.
- 22:38:09 [mfoltzgoogle]
- fluffy: Prompts don't solve.
- 22:38:37 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: Danger is limited, content is what origin already knows
- 22:40:25 [mfoltzgoogle]
- mfoltzgoogle: These issues have already existed with capture from canvas and capture from video.
- 22:41:01 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: Link purpling needs to stop when you start capture. But I don't see it as unique to element capture.
- 22:41:41 [mfoltzgoogle]
- youenn: getVM is more like screen share, this is different, rendering in the background.
- 22:42:01 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: Some issues are unique, some are shared.
- 22:43:04 [mfoltzgoogle]
- jib: These concerns are elevated, with occlusion. We already have offscreen canvas. If I see things are flashing on my screen, if it's occluded there are no signs.
- 22:43:45 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: Assume that the user won't notice the flashing if it's a single pixel.
- 22:44:28 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: We should mitigate concerns and make them happen. Some tricks that the web page might do, we can do mitigations.
- 22:44:38 [mfoltzgoogle]
- youenn: If we can't see the content, then no mitigations.
- 22:45:07 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... With occluded content, I don't see what we can do.
- 22:45:30 [ada]
- q+
- 22:45:43 [mfoltzgoogle]
- youenn: Iframe that is fully isolated?
- 22:46:10 [mfoltzgoogle]
- iclelland_: Fenced frames
- 22:46:46 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: Could be that size leaks information.
- 22:46:56 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ...about embedded content.
- 22:47:03 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ack ada
- 22:47:41 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ada: Chair of IWMG. One of the most requested features, is an API to view DOM scenes.
- 22:47:51 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Problem trying to solve for 5 years.
- 22:48:09 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Either too dangerous, or restrictions made it unusable.
- 22:48:25 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Play youtube in WebXR.
- 22:48:43 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Might have some related places where we encountered problems.
- 22:49:06 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... DOM layout that is not readable by the user.
- 22:49:36 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Adding on the ability to a fake interaction on the projected view, redirect back to the original DOM without synthesized clicks?
- 22:51:22 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: Seems orthogonal to me.
- 22:51:41 [mfoltzgoogle]
- jib: Out of scope for screen capture spec. End up tripping up malicious use cases, scams.
- 22:51:48 [mfoltzgoogle]
- q
- 22:52:09 [mfoltzgoogle]
- yoenn: Do you need user specific rendering? Being rendered based on user specific information.
- 22:52:24 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Any browser instance would produce the same information.
- 22:52:48 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: Mostly personalized content.
- 22:53:24 [mfoltzgoogle]
- youenn: Maybe you want an HTML to video converter that doesn't depend on the user.
- 22:54:33 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: Could turn off link purpling, autofill, etc. for the user, accessibility settings
- 22:55:36 [mfoltzgoogle]
- youenn: Accessibility should be protected
- 22:56:08 [mfoltzgoogle]
- herre: Users need informed consent.
- 22:56:32 [mfoltzgoogle]
- jib: Browser to steer users towards better choices than sharing the full screen.
- 22:57:10 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: Google feedback tool uses gDM, we could do better.
- 22:57:51 [mfoltzgoogle]
- jib: Working on better choices, windows, tabs. Not sure this is moving in the right direction. Push back on the use case.
- 22:58:21 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Better ways to solve overlapping menus. Smart cropping to an element. Move the menu to the side.
- 22:59:06 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... You can say crop to this element, and crop to coordinates, if you don't want to overlap.
- 22:59:27 [fluffy]
- q+
- 22:59:31 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: Give applications a consistent way to remove private content, like chat notifications
- 23:00:21 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ... Giving the proper weights to the issues. The occluding content that is private, more of a problem than getVM
- 23:00:44 [mfoltzgoogle]
- fluffy: Can you turn off notifications in browser apps, we are talking about in-content notifications.
- 23:00:55 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: ChromeOS does that
- 23:01:07 [mfoltzgoogle]
- ericc: ScreenCaptureKit does that.
- 23:01:08 [fluffy]
- ack fluffy
- 23:01:35 [mfoltzgoogle]
- eladalon: We deal with tradeoffs, current state is not great. We could be allowing better applications to be built. The perfect be the enemy of the better.
- 23:01:40 [ericc]
- present+
- 23:01:54 [mfoltzgoogle]
- rrsagent generate minutes
- 23:02:05 [mfoltzgoogle]
- rrsagent, generate minutes
- 23:02:05 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-element-capture-minutes.html mfoltzgoogle
- 23:22:25 [dom]
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- 22:00:27 [dom]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 22:00:27 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items