IRC log of element-capture on 2022-09-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:05:13 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-element-capture-irc
14:05:15 [Zakim]
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14:08:39 [dom]
Meeting: Element Capture - TPAC 2022 breakout
14:08:53 [dom]
Chair: Elad_Alon
14:09:03 [dom]
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ee306db5-9954-4674-a61d-ff68498b4608#agenda
14:09:11 [dom]
RRSAgent, make log public
14:09:19 [dom]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
14:17:08 [dom]
RRSAgent, stay
14:17:10 [dom]
Zakim, stay
14:17:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'stay', dom
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15:52:36 [englishm]
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agenda+ breakout
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19:19:09 [jesup]
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19:19:25 [jesup]
is there a zoom session for element capture?
19:19:37 [jesup]
the link in the agenda led to an empty room
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21:58:45 [lgombos]
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22:00:20 [mfoltzgoogle]
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Present+ Mark_Foltz
22:00:44 [seukyoon-kang]
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Slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/e/2PACX-1vSBwa1kvYKY14-nh3Wd523X7Nzy-fi-sBoplE4pBLGkOGBkTpR1u5hA5s2UDg4D1ICip6lYXA9bfKYl/pub?start=false&loop=false&delayms=3000
22:01:25 [seukyoon-kang]
thank you!
22:01:54 [ericc]
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22:03:42 [mfoltzgoogle]
zakim, start the meeting
22:03:42 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
22:03:44 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), mfoltzgoogle
22:04:19 [mfoltzgoogle]
meeting: Element Capture
22:04:35 [mfoltzgoogle]
zakim, meeting: Element Capture
22:04:35 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'meeting: Element Capture', mfoltzgoogle
22:05:32 [mfoltzgoogle]
Scribenick: mfoltzgoogle
22:05:44 [jib]
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eladlon: Screenshot of me and Mark, docs can embed a videoconferencing app
22:06:44 [mfoltzgoogle]
...One of them captures a portion of the screen and transmits that remotely
22:07:23 [mfoltzgoogle]
...A couple of options, transfer stream to the video conferencing iframe
22:07:31 [mfoltzgoogle]
rrsagent, generate minutes
22:07:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-element-capture-minutes.html mfoltzgoogle
22:07:50 [mfoltzgoogle]
msw: In screen capture, for training videos, web app might capture a portion of the content area
22:07:55 [jib]
Sorry I joined late. Is there a link to the slides?
22:08:08 [lyf]
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22:08:08 [mfoltzgoogle]
jib: Slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/e/2PACX-1vSBwa1kvYKY14-nh3Wd523X7Nzy-fi-sBoplE4pBLGkOGBkTpR1u5hA5s2UDg4D1ICip6lYXA9bfKYl/pub?start=false&loop=false&delayms=3000
22:08:41 [mfoltzgoogle]
ericc: Would occluded portion of the elements being captured? Danger of the user exposing information they cannot see
22:09:42 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: This can happen today, when users type input it can show up in the capture.
22:10:32 [mfoltzgoogle]
<?>: In iOS, we have a mitigation that camera capture requires a preview
22:10:46 [jib]
q+
22:11:21 [mfoltzgoogle]
<?>: The concern is not malicious sites, but users knowing what they are sharing
22:12:18 [herre]
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22:12:24 [mfoltzgoogle]
<jib>: Built on getDisplayMedia but also getViewportMedia, very different security properties. Which one?
22:12:38 [iclelland_]
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q?
22:12:56 [jib]
ack jib
22:12:57 [mfoltzgoogle]
q- jib
22:13:28 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: Requires for getViewportMedia, requirements were difficult to comply with
22:13:38 [mfoltzgoogle]
jib: Non-compliance not a good argument
22:14:22 [arthursonzogni]
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eladalon: See if we can relax from getViewportMedia, but if we can't, then stick with it.
22:14:56 [youenn]
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22:14:57 [mfoltzgoogle]
youenn: Trying to understand, is the interest to reduce requirements from gVM, or to fix the occlusion issue
22:14:58 [fluffy]
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22:15:22 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: Too early to stay, may not be possible, but it is an interesting topic to drive adoption
22:15:41 [mfoltzgoogle]
rrsagent, generate minutes
22:15:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-element-capture-minutes.html mfoltzgoogle
22:16:04 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Two requirements for gVM: cross-origin isolation, and opt-in from document-policy
22:16:18 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Sounds like we could use it for element-level capture to reduce requirements
22:16:21 [mfoltzgoogle]
q
22:16:46 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Document policy is sufficient, if others have ideas, lets discuss
22:17:56 [mfoltzgoogle]
arthursonzogni: Seems sufficient from requirements
22:18:10 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Include iframes that does not include policy?
22:18:47 [mfoltzgoogle]
iclelland_: With document-policy, I consent to be captured by this origin. All embedded frames also must consent or we don't allow it.
22:18:57 [mfoltzgoogle]
arthursonzogni: Is there a race when creating iframes?
22:19:42 [mfoltzgoogle]
iclelland_: We have a mode, similar to CSP-embedded. I require this policy on all frames I embed, if they don't comply, they don't load.
22:20:00 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Could be useful here, have to be careful with dynamic content.
22:20:02 [mfoltzgoogle]
q
22:20:08 [jib]
q+
22:20:21 [mfoltzgoogle]
ack jib
22:20:47 [mfoltzgoogle]
jib: Security requirements should be the same, iframe or div could be an element. To me the security requirements are the same
22:20:58 [herre]
q+
22:21:07 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Requires cross-origin isolation, which prevents loading non-consenting documents
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22:22:12 [mfoltzgoogle]
herre: Could be useful to talk about use cases enabled by more relaxed permissions.
22:22:24 [msw]
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22:22:35 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Some small part could be captured without the entire document.
22:22:59 [mfoltzgoogle]
youenn: Iframe could impact size of 3p content. getVM seems like the right baseline. Figure out if we need to decrease security.
22:23:01 [jib]
ack jib
22:23:03 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Always a hole.
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22:23:17 [mfoltzgoogle]
herre: Worth trying.
22:23:20 [mfoltzgoogle]
ack herre
22:23:26 [jib]
q+
22:24:34 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: Find a way to isolate, to prevent data leakage. May need CSS to isolate rendering. Worth looking for it.
22:25:06 [mfoltzgoogle]
... You've created content and you want to show ads. Ads doesn't want to be captured.
22:26:11 [mfoltzgoogle]
youenn: These are two different projects. Two different specs. If you want to have it soon, do the security later.
22:26:20 [mfoltzgoogle]
ack jib
22:27:20 [mfoltzgoogle]
jib: Maybe an unpopular comment. Self-capture, at some point, creating a new render target for HTML.
22:27:56 [mfoltzgoogle]
... We've backed in to a powerful feature. If an HTML app needs to capture video, then it's worth questioning whether the app can do it itself.
22:28:32 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: We have web developers asking for it. Google docs and meet, non-Google developers asking for it.
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22:30:02 [mfoltzgoogle]
q
22:30:29 [fluffy]
q+
22:30:42 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: Why shouldn't we do this? If we separate/stage those discussions, how do we make it accessible to more users.
22:31:37 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Why would we not want to provide this API.
22:32:34 [mfoltzgoogle]
jib: Can these applications do it with canvas? If element capture requires a permission, would it meet the use case?
22:32:57 [ada]
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22:33:17 [mfoltzgoogle]
youenn: Occluded content, there is a big difference with getViewportMedia. Will the user understand the difference between element capture and gVM?
22:34:24 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: For most applications, there is no difference between gVM and element capture. For malicious applications, the same issue.
22:34:34 [fluffy]
q?
22:34:44 [mfoltzgoogle]
youenn: The same prompt, but the user mitigation is different? From the user's point of view, inconsistent.
22:35:20 [mfoltzgoogle]
youenn: If you scroll down, understood that it is not shared. In fact it is not the same thing.
22:35:33 [mfoltzgoogle]
jib: With this new API, there is no "flashing."
22:36:02 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: You broke the page apart, could piece them back together. Machine could never see that.
22:36:43 [mfoltzgoogle]
ack fluffy
22:37:29 [mfoltzgoogle]
fluffy: Surprising that what is being captured is different from what the user is seeing.
22:38:09 [mfoltzgoogle]
fluffy: Prompts don't solve.
22:38:37 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: Danger is limited, content is what origin already knows
22:40:25 [mfoltzgoogle]
mfoltzgoogle: These issues have already existed with capture from canvas and capture from video.
22:41:01 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: Link purpling needs to stop when you start capture. But I don't see it as unique to element capture.
22:41:41 [mfoltzgoogle]
youenn: getVM is more like screen share, this is different, rendering in the background.
22:42:01 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: Some issues are unique, some are shared.
22:43:04 [mfoltzgoogle]
jib: These concerns are elevated, with occlusion. We already have offscreen canvas. If I see things are flashing on my screen, if it's occluded there are no signs.
22:43:45 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: Assume that the user won't notice the flashing if it's a single pixel.
22:44:28 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: We should mitigate concerns and make them happen. Some tricks that the web page might do, we can do mitigations.
22:44:38 [mfoltzgoogle]
youenn: If we can't see the content, then no mitigations.
22:45:07 [mfoltzgoogle]
... With occluded content, I don't see what we can do.
22:45:30 [ada]
q+
22:45:43 [mfoltzgoogle]
youenn: Iframe that is fully isolated?
22:46:10 [mfoltzgoogle]
iclelland_: Fenced frames
22:46:46 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: Could be that size leaks information.
22:46:56 [mfoltzgoogle]
...about embedded content.
22:47:03 [mfoltzgoogle]
ack ada
22:47:41 [mfoltzgoogle]
ada: Chair of IWMG. One of the most requested features, is an API to view DOM scenes.
22:47:51 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Problem trying to solve for 5 years.
22:48:09 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Either too dangerous, or restrictions made it unusable.
22:48:25 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Play youtube in WebXR.
22:48:43 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Might have some related places where we encountered problems.
22:49:06 [mfoltzgoogle]
... DOM layout that is not readable by the user.
22:49:36 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Adding on the ability to a fake interaction on the projected view, redirect back to the original DOM without synthesized clicks?
22:51:22 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: Seems orthogonal to me.
22:51:41 [mfoltzgoogle]
jib: Out of scope for screen capture spec. End up tripping up malicious use cases, scams.
22:51:48 [mfoltzgoogle]
q
22:52:09 [mfoltzgoogle]
yoenn: Do you need user specific rendering? Being rendered based on user specific information.
22:52:24 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Any browser instance would produce the same information.
22:52:48 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: Mostly personalized content.
22:53:24 [mfoltzgoogle]
youenn: Maybe you want an HTML to video converter that doesn't depend on the user.
22:54:33 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: Could turn off link purpling, autofill, etc. for the user, accessibility settings
22:55:36 [mfoltzgoogle]
youenn: Accessibility should be protected
22:56:08 [mfoltzgoogle]
herre: Users need informed consent.
22:56:32 [mfoltzgoogle]
jib: Browser to steer users towards better choices than sharing the full screen.
22:57:10 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: Google feedback tool uses gDM, we could do better.
22:57:51 [mfoltzgoogle]
jib: Working on better choices, windows, tabs. Not sure this is moving in the right direction. Push back on the use case.
22:58:21 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Better ways to solve overlapping menus. Smart cropping to an element. Move the menu to the side.
22:59:06 [mfoltzgoogle]
... You can say crop to this element, and crop to coordinates, if you don't want to overlap.
22:59:27 [fluffy]
q+
22:59:31 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: Give applications a consistent way to remove private content, like chat notifications
23:00:21 [mfoltzgoogle]
... Giving the proper weights to the issues. The occluding content that is private, more of a problem than getVM
23:00:44 [mfoltzgoogle]
fluffy: Can you turn off notifications in browser apps, we are talking about in-content notifications.
23:00:55 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: ChromeOS does that
23:01:07 [mfoltzgoogle]
ericc: ScreenCaptureKit does that.
23:01:08 [fluffy]
ack fluffy
23:01:35 [mfoltzgoogle]
eladalon: We deal with tradeoffs, current state is not great. We could be allowing better applications to be built. The perfect be the enemy of the better.
23:01:40 [ericc]
present+
23:01:54 [mfoltzgoogle]
rrsagent generate minutes
23:02:05 [mfoltzgoogle]
rrsagent, generate minutes
23:02:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-element-capture-minutes.html mfoltzgoogle
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22:00:27 [dom]
RRSAgent, bye
22:00:27 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items