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14:03:35 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-a11y-maturity-irc
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14:03:45 <dom> Meeting: W3C Accessibility Maturity Model  - TPAC 2022 breakout
14:03:49 <dom> Chair: David_Fazio, Janina_Sajka, Sheri_Byrne-Haber
14:03:57 <dom> Agenda:  https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/4a5a5bcb-45c2-4ba5-b5e0-7b3d3ceb1fc9#agenda
14:03:59 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
14:04:07 <dom> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
14:16:18 <dom> RRSAgent, stay
14:16:20 <dom> Zakim, stay
14:16:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'stay', dom
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16:12:00 <dom> agenda+ breakout
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22:01:45 <fazio> Maturity Model Link
22:01:51 <Makoto> present+
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22:02:13 <Irfan_Ali> present+
22:02:15 <Sheri_B-H> FPWD at https://w3c.github.io/maturity-model
22:02:20 <Irfan_Ali> present+ Janina
22:02:35 <Irfan_Ali> Topic: Maturity Model
22:02:42 <Irfan_Ali> Scribe: Irfan Ali
22:02:51 <Irfan_Ali> Chair: David Fazio
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22:06:51 <Irfan_Ali> fazio: welcome to the maturity model presentation. lot of issues were coming out from the WCAG when we started. to ensure that accessibility work is in continuation. big problem in fixing older tech
22:07:56 <Irfan_Ali> ...in our legislation, barriers are supposed to be moved. this model suggests, how to create a process and improvements. it ensures that you have got a sustainable model of accessibility program
22:08:19 <Irfan_Ali> we have worked with Sheri and other folks on this model
22:08:53 <jptownley> jptownley has joined #a11y-maturity
22:09:24 <Irfan_Ali> we ran so many push backs in the beginnings. but whatever we have included in this model is to ensure the sustainable model for the accessibility that can work for the large organizations
22:10:07 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: some organization are sued and they come up with an argument that we are working on it. and then they get sued again, and this model helps to prevent such problems.
22:10:48 <Sheri_B-H> Communications: Information as it relates to an organization’s accessibility, as well as accessibility of all internal/external communications. Knowledge and Skills: Ongoing education, and outsourcing practices to fill gaps for accessibility operations. Support: Accessibility assistance provided to internal employees and external customers with disabilities. ICT (Information and Communication Technology) Development Life Cycle: Inc[CUT]
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22:11:15 <Amanda> present+
22:11:19 <fazio> present+
22:11:26 <Karen> present+
22:11:35 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: after looking at 6 other maturity models we came up with this list.
22:13:19 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: we consider Communications, Knowledge and Skills: support, ICT (Information and Communication Technology) Development Life Cycle, personal, Procurement, and culture dimension
22:14:25 <Irfan_Ali> https://w3c.github.io/maturity-model
22:14:26 <fazio> https://w3c.github.io/maturity-model/#culture-ratings-for-evaluation
22:15:34 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: there are four stages in this maturity model including inactive, launch, integrate, and Optimize
22:16:01 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: we are also providing the supportive excel-sheet to trial run your own assessment.
22:16:35 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: reason for this is because this not a single person or single day operation. requires lot of data collection.
22:17:04 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: excel is not optimal but narrative has to be set before we move forward. You can download the template and fill out your own.
22:17:13 <jptownley> q+ Speaking of levels, how does this compare to other published Accessibility Maturity Models already published? Can we roughly map the levels presented here to others (eg, a company has already hired a consultancy to do an audit against an AMM(
22:18:14 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: communication is important and they could be like external and internal formal and informal major and minor generated by the organization directly or by third parties under contract to the organization
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22:19:21 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: we have few non-digital accessibility support here.
22:20:05 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: you could add non-digital support or remove and you have that flexibility
22:21:03 <Irfan_Ali> fazio: we have had thisb use-case in the beginning of this model but we have worked on it and it doesn't seems to be problem. remember this is only FPWD and it will get more matured in the future
22:22:04 <Irfan_Ali> janina: the point of FPWD is to gather more information and ideas from the wider community. Experience that the community shares with us help us to mature this.
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22:22:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> present+
22:22:18 <Karen> present+
22:22:56 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: in an organization where they are not getting started or not perfect and not doing correctly, it allows to identify the low hanging fruites which helps you to pick them out and target those areas with your resources
22:23:14 <jptownley> Q+ Can we roughly map the levels presented here to others? DAMM to WAMM?
22:23:26 <Amanda> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fzPlHjHIaSQn9GvpJd86SDpV49U8Beg_iXj6K5aeyGg/edit#gid=1552848103 direct spreadsheet link
22:23:41 <jptownley> q+
22:24:35 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: we can take whatever use case you have and utilize them in our documents.
22:25:02 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: communication is important and they could be like external and internal, formal and informal, major and minor generated by the organization, directly or by third parties under contract to the organization
22:26:21 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: if the resources have the a11y experience then perhaps you do not need any training. but if you dont have those resources then you need a proper training for your resources to keep them up to date with the standards
22:26:33 <Irfan_Ali> q+
22:26:45 <Irfan_Ali> ack jp
22:27:26 <Irfan_Ali> fazio: with knowledge and skills are two variables to determine the process of trainings
22:28:23 <Irfan_Ali> jptownley: we have used the digital accessibility maturity model published by other organization. how does those models map to this?
22:29:00 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: I wrote this and evolved this maturity model. we built it to be more flexible
22:29:24 <Irfan_Ali> jptownley: whats the utility of level zero in context of actual business audited
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22:30:17 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: you can use your score based upon the template the determine
22:30:28 <CharlesL> present+
22:31:01 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: disability equality index, you will get full credit if you do it following the proposed criteria
22:31:23 <Irfan_Ali> fazio: this is a tool of encouragement and guidance about the things to get done.
22:32:08 <Irfan_Ali> jptownley: we have had lot of success using the maturity model with the fall sense of success where 100 score is not 100%
22:32:27 <Irfan_Ali> s/fall sense/ false sense
22:32:42 <jptownley> false sense
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22:32:59 <Irfan_Ali> Sheri_B-H: some company scored the 100 then for 7 months they did not even have any a11y program
22:33:16 <Irfan_Ali> .. it is very important to things looked at the perspective.
22:34:13 <Karen> scribenick:Karen
22:34:13 <Karen> Irfan_Ali: this work got my attention
22:34:13 <Karen> ...cannot say much about the company, but I got some new talking points by looking at this document
22:34:15 <Karen> ...and driving within the organization an awareness about Accessibility
22:34:27 <Karen> ...the C-level doesn't understand the tech, but they understand the process
22:34:41 <Karen> ...I particularly like all the parameters, various stages, proof points and dimensions
22:34:57 <Karen> ...I may have some feedback to send to you, Sherri and Fazio
22:35:04 <Karen> Sheri: Please use Github or send to me
22:35:20 <Karen> Fazio: Please comment to me or on Github
22:35:23 <Karen> Janina: this is a public working draft; that is an intent
22:36:14 <Karen> Fazio: Intel, for example is playing with it
22:36:14 <Karen> Irfan_Ali: I may want to talk to you
22:36:21 <Karen> Sheri: not mapping to single employees; what do FAQs look like, are customer support people trained for helping people with assistive technologies, etc.
22:36:28 <Karen> ...feedback loops on all of these are important
22:36:36 <Karen> ...cannot get to higher levels without feedback loops
22:36:48 <Karen> ...we did a retrospective; here's what we did, here is what we need to change
22:36:58 <Karen> ...proof points; goal of the third level
22:37:04 <Karen> ...ICT Development Lifecycle
22:37:17 <Karen> ...we picked ICT purposefully to cover all ICT and different categories
22:37:30 <Irfan_Ali> rssagent, make minutes
22:37:36 <Irfan_Ali> ack irfan
22:37:39 <Irfan_Ali> q?
22:38:13 <Karen> ...block of proof points for design, development, experience, quality review
22:38:13 <Karen> ...again, each of four levels is associated with an outcome
22:38:13 <Karen> ...Next one is personnel
22:38:16 <Irfan_Ali> rrsagent, make minutes
22:38:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-a11y-maturity-minutes.html Irfan_Ali
22:38:21 <Karen> ...in Personnel focus on recruiting people with disabilities, and strategic engagement with people with disabilities
22:38:26 <Karen> ...other dimensions of DEI
22:38:34 <Karen> Fazio: One of the justifications
22:38:51 <jptownley> Nothing about us without us.
22:38:59 <Karen> ...in order to make sure you are testing appropriately, you have to have people with disabilities in the program
22:39:01 <jptownley> Glad to hear you address this.
22:39:08 <Karen> ...that hands-on experience in the development processes
22:39:18 <Karen> Sheri: VMWare has a large program
22:40:13 <Karen> ...accessibility needs to be discussed with employees with diabilities
22:40:13 <Karen> ...that is the direct path to how this impacts the accessibility of the end product
22:40:13 <Karen> Janina: you need to see these people as your colleagues in the lunch room
22:40:13 <Karen> Sheri: Procurement
22:40:14 <Karen> ...sends wrong message
22:40:15 <Karen> ...and spend a whole lot of time doing accommodations
22:40:33 <Karen> ...Jeff Kline was involved; he wrote the book on strategic accessible procurement
22:40:44 <Karen> ...goes both ways; if I'm buying stuff, or if a company asks me how I'm doiong
22:41:02 <Karen> ...and you can state how you stack up agains the W3C Accessibility Maturity Model
22:41:14 <Karen> ...a vendor reaches out to me frequently
22:41:24 <Karen> ...and that factors into procurement and into other areas as well
22:42:14 <Karen> ...Developed by someone who is experienced in accessibility procurement
22:42:14 <Karen> ...Moving on to Culture
22:42:14 <Karen> ...we has organizational culture with proof points
22:42:14 <Karen> ...integrate into DEI initiatives, W3C initiatives
22:42:14 <Karen> ...culture is last of the dimensions
22:42:21 <Karen> Fazio: Do we have any questions or comments
22:42:40 <Karen> Amanda: I'm excited; I think it's very good
22:42:40 <Makoto> q+
22:42:54 <Karen> ...as someone who works with clients on this every day
22:42:59 <Karen> ...this is fantastic
22:43:07 <Karen> ...eager to work with spreadsheet and provide feedback
22:43:20 <CharlesL> q+
22:43:27 <Karen> Fazio: we're looking to figure out the scores and creating an overall picture
22:44:14 <Karen> Sheri: We are just scoring at the dimension level right now
22:44:14 <Karen> ...scoring has been a contentious topic at W3C in general
22:44:14 <Karen> ...in terms of Silver
22:44:14 <Karen> ...we wanted to settle the behavior down first
22:44:14 <Karen> ...before deciding about scoring at the organizational level
22:44:18 <Karen> Fazio: it's a tool for continuous improvement
22:44:26 <Karen> ...not necessarily of how mature
22:44:34 <Karen> Amanda: it's acknowledgement that there is a process
22:44:45 <Karen> Janina: And that you have a process to go through
22:44:53 <Karen> Fazio: How do you prove you are taking steps
22:45:03 <Karen> ...not just US, EU, multi-nationals need to do this
22:45:08 <Karen> ...show me you are trying to be accessible
22:45:25 <Karen> ...you can show consumer what you do; what you put behind your accessibility statement
22:45:40 <jptownley> q+
22:46:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
22:46:14 <Karen> Janina: feedback will be helpful on all areas
22:46:14 <Karen> ...dare I say "dimensions"?
22:46:14 <Karen> ...and how data is collected
22:46:14 <Karen> ...or suggestions on a better spreadsheet
22:46:14 <Karen> ...or some kind of SQL database on the backend to generate reports
22:46:24 <Karen> ...by no means this is the spreadsheet that will show up with the next updated working draft
22:46:37 <Karen> Sheri: I hope not as well, we want to incorporate feedback
22:46:43 <Karen> Janina: all aspects are up for comment
22:46:50 <Karen> Sheri: And open to more participation
22:46:57 <Karen> ...if you are excited, we're down for that
22:47:07 <Karen> ...8:00am Pacific on Wednesdays
22:47:11 <Karen> Amanda: Perth, AU
22:48:14 <Karen> q+
22:48:14 <Karen> q?
22:48:14 <Karen> Sheri: I asked protocols group
22:48:14 <Karen> ...they started to alternate every other week
22:48:35 <Karen> ...we can make alterations to meeting times
22:48:37 <Karen> ack Makoto
22:48:46 <Karen> Makoto: Thank you very much for the presentation
22:48:51 <Karen> ...this is a practical model
22:49:08 <Karen> ...in Japan, web accessibility is not required
22:49:21 <Karen> ...but the number of companies making accessible web sites and apps is increasing
22:50:13 <Karen> ...many companies have not started their efforts yet
22:50:13 <Karen> ...some companies got sued in US
22:50:13 <Karen> ...how would you recommend using this model to companies who are approaching web site accessibility
22:50:13 <Karen> Sheri: what is the value of a zero
22:50:13 <Karen> ...if you haven't started anything, and starting at zero
22:50:17 <Karen> ...Look at proof points to get you to level one
22:50:22 <jptownley> @makoto would love to connect jptownley@mac.com
22:50:31 <jptownley> may have some insight...
22:50:32 <Karen> ...if you decided as an organization to invest, that will help you to prioritize a roadmap
22:50:40 <Karen> ...you just want to start by getting to level one
22:50:47 <gpellegrino> q+
22:50:56 <Karen> Fazio: If you get a one, you have to acknowledge what you are doing
22:51:06 <Karen> ack Charles LaPierre
22:51:21 <Irfan_Ali> rrsagent, make minutes
22:51:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-a11y-maturity-minutes.html Irfan_Ali
22:51:21 <Karen> CharlesL: we created a global certified accessibility program for publishers for EPUBs
22:52:14 <Karen> ...we do score and have multiple sections about images, about tables, etc.
22:52:14 <Karen> ...similar to your dimensions
22:52:14 <Karen> ...each has its own score from one to four
22:52:14 <Karen> ...and you get a detailed report
22:52:14 <Karen> ...you get those each scored, and get an overall score to present to higher levels
22:52:15 <Karen> ...we got a 60% gca score overall
22:52:21 <Karen> ...and look at 3% on tables v 100% on tables
22:52:28 <Karen> ...although usually it's the opposite
22:52:36 <Karen> ...that is how we worked and publishers really responded
22:52:44 <Karen> Sheri: We built this to be industry agnostic
22:52:55 <Karen> ...but no reason why you cannot integrate it into your own existing maturity model
22:53:08 <Karen> ...maybe you are doing tables at 3% because you don't have the right training
22:53:23 <Karen> Charles: yes, making comparison about scoring by sections and the overall score
22:54:03 <CharlesL> q?
22:54:05 <CharlesL> ack me
22:54:10 <CharlesL> ack jptownley
22:54:15 <Karen> Fazio: and we want to know why and be flexible
22:54:15 <Karen> Janina: right scoring model is helpful
22:54:15 <Karen> ack Jonathan
22:54:15 <Karen> Jonathan: is there a strategy to map success criteria to these proof points
22:54:21 <Karen> Sheri: we deliberately divorced from @
22:54:28 <Karen> ...did not want it to impact our delivery timelines
22:54:36 <Karen> ...the ICT section, we could look to expand that
22:54:42 <Karen> ...and look at automated or manual testing
22:54:57 <Karen> Fazio: we called it WCAG MM at first, then changed it to W3C
22:55:05 <Karen> ...there are other ICTs and other guidance to consider
22:55:14 <Karen> ..for example cognitive is a W3C Note
22:55:25 <Karen> ...so any W3C suggestion, not just WCAG
22:56:14 <Karen> Janina: and many other normative areas
22:56:14 <Karen> ...others on their way as well
22:56:14 <Karen> ...what exactly...the slice you want to look at at any moment is likely to be changing
22:56:14 <Karen> ...can be expanded but will help industry to compete and to try new approaches
22:56:26 <Karen> ...what's wrong with competing against your competition down the street on doing accessibility better
22:56:38 <Karen> Janina: instead of how we can avoid it, it's let's do better
22:56:41 <Karen> ack Lionel
22:57:04 <Karen> Lionel: Can you describe the ecosystem in which you see this working
22:57:17 <Karen> ...the DAM comes along to help companies implement
22:57:27 <Karen> s/DAMM
22:58:14 <Karen> ...thinking about the ecosystem
22:58:14 <Karen> ...how this tool will be deployed in companies that do not have SMEs to assess themselves
22:58:14 <Karen> Sheri: It was designed for people to self-administer for people with small knowledge; or they can contract own
22:58:14 <Karen> Fazio: It's simplified language
22:58:28 <Karen> ...maturity model to be divorced from @
22:58:35 <Karen> ...allow any organization to use
22:58:50 <Karen> Janina: would it be ok to say it's more of a business model rather than a tech model?
22:59:09 <Karen> Fazio: yes, when I assembled group, acknowledged that we needed a broader approach
23:00:14 <Karen> ...Accessibile Architectures is the perfect home for us, not just for WCAG; ICT and processes
23:00:14 <Karen> Lionel: this resembles other process assessments, ISO standards
23:00:14 <Karen> Fazio: yes, 9001
23:00:14 <Karen> Lionel: Have you comment on that?
23:00:14 <Karen> ...if it is indeed like ISO 9001?
23:00:15 <Karen> ...there is a huge ecosystem of consultants that pile in
23:00:17 <Karen> ...can you comment?
23:00:22 <Karen> Fazio: That was my initial proposal
23:00:26 <Karen> ...we got Sheri and Jeff involved
23:00:32 <Karen> ...and they brought in this expertise
23:00:41 <Karen> ...and looked at gaps in the other standards or approaches
23:00:47 <Karen> ...did not want to re-create a new ISO model
23:00:52 <Karen> Sheri: ISO is pay to play
23:01:00 <Karen> ...you cannot download the guidelines
23:01:06 <Karen> ...without spending a lot of money
23:01:16 <Karen> ...this is more flexible, versus ISO being more rigid
23:01:50 <Irfan_Ali> rrsagent, make minutes
23:01:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-a11y-maturity-minutes.html Irfan_Ali
23:02:11 <CharlesL> q?
23:02:13 <Karen> Fazio: 9001 is do what you say, which is what we've got here
23:02:13 <Karen> Lionel: the PDAA...something similar?
23:02:13 <Karen> Sheri: Jeff can speak to that
23:02:13 <Karen> ...I have to drop now
23:02:13 <Karen> ...appreciate everyone participating
23:02:13 <Karen> ...Please continue the conversation
23:02:14 <Karen> Janina: we are out of time
23:02:14 <Karen> Fazio: Happy to answer quesitons
23:02:14 <Karen> q-
23:02:15 <Karen> Janina: we need to leave for another meeting
23:02:18 <Karen> ack David
23:02:25 <gpellegrino> q-
23:02:27 <Karen> David: I had this on my calendar for tomorrow
23:02:37 <Karen> ...listening to conversation; good comments and feedback
23:02:49 <Karen> ...Important thing about this organizational model
23:02:53 <Karen> ...not sure if you coverd it
23:03:04 <Karen> ...if you do those things, you have a hell of a systems
23:03:13 <Karen> ...and it's for customers of companies
23:03:55 <jptownley> ...is there a possibility of getting that spreadsheet as a xls file in the GitHub, rather than a google doc.
23:03:56 <jptownley> ?
23:04:15 <Karen> ...and you can ask them for a maturity model and ask them to share the results, assuming they answer successfully
23:04:15 <Karen> ...It is a valuable procurement tool
23:04:15 <Karen> ...and an enablement tool to build the capacity to have all the pieces in place to be a fully accessible organization
23:04:15 <Karen> Fazio: yes, we talked about that
23:04:16 <Karen> ...Jeff was a big part about this
23:04:16 <Karen> ...thank him also for his hard work
23:04:20 <Karen> Amanda: how can I be involved?
23:04:25 <Karen> Fazio: we are TF of APA
23:04:28 <CharlesL> q?
23:04:29 <Karen> ...Wed 8am PT
23:04:36 <Karen> Janina: asynchronous is possible
23:04:45 <Karen> ...if org is member, get nominated to APA
23:04:51 <Karen> ...individual, maybe could become an IE
23:05:06 <Karen> [adjourned]
23:05:19 <Karen> rrsagent, make minutes
23:05:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/14-a11y-maturity-minutes.html Karen
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21:58:39 <dom> Zakim, bye
21:58:39 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Sheri_B-H, fazio, JohnRochford, MasakazuKitahara_, Makoto, Irfan_Ali, Janina, Amanda, Karen, shadi, Lionel_Wolberger, CharlesL,
21:58:39 <Zakim> Zakim has left #a11y-maturity
21:58:40 <dom> RRSAgent, bye
21:58:40 <RRSAgent> I see no action items