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15:38:48 <Zakim> Meeting: Improving Web Advertising BG
15:38:51 <wseltzer> Topic: Introductions
15:38:59 <wseltzer> present+
15:39:50 <wseltzer> [slideset: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1R67R5Pd9NL88s5vn51Y3k50uP7P59YKidSpW0uYjZHo/edit#slide=id.p ]
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15:48:26 <kleber> alextcone: So you're still representing IAB Tech Lab here, though your affiliation has changed in other contexts?
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15:49:08 <Alan> scribenick: Alan
15:49:24 <Alan> Wendy: Background of group's activities
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15:50:34 <Alan> ...A lot of the work has moved into incubation - WICG and Privacy submissions in 2020
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15:51:01 <Alan> ...PATCG, Fed Id adn Anti-Fraud started in 2021 with some items
15:51:31 <Alan> ...Last month started Charter Review for PAT WG - the formal path for the work coming out of these discussions
15:51:47 <Alan> [table of W3C Group functions]
15:52:46 <Alan> ...discussion on various groups, licensing, etc.
15:53:17 <ddabbs> +queue
15:53:33 <lbasdevant> q?
15:53:34 <Alan> ...BG is a more open structire and tehn we send the work to a more formal structure
15:53:38 <Alan> ack dd
15:54:07 <kris_chapman> q+
15:54:08 <Alan> David: The top right - CG - doesn't produce a normative spec, that has to go to a WG right?
15:54:24 <Alan> Wendy: Thanks, I'll update the slide in real time to reflect that.
15:55:01 <Alan> ...A WG creates a spec that has had full review from the Membership and horizontal review
15:55:04 <Alan> ack kri
15:55:35 <Alan> Kris: When 2 different WGs come up with specs that have different points of view, how is that resolved?
15:56:14 <Alan> Wendy: We have the TAG that looks at it architecturally.  If the two serve different functions they may say both are OK, otherwise they may try to harmonize them.
15:56:33 <Alan> Juan: Do CG speccs go through the TAG?
15:56:49 <lbasdevant> q+
15:56:53 <Alan> Wendy: A CG can ask for TAG review as they encourage early submissions
15:57:02 <Alan> ack lbas
15:57:13 <Alan> #############
15:57:31 <Alan> Wendy: That is the question of what on-going role do we want for this group.
15:57:59 <Alan> ...If we look at the set of places things have gone, there are groups open to developing the specs started here.
15:58:07 <charlieharrison> q+
15:58:12 <Alan> ...They are better places for spec focused development.
15:58:26 <Alan> ...I put together this on "what's next"
15:58:35 <Alan> [What's next slide]
15:59:23 <bmay> q+
15:59:33 <Alan> ...We could do review, look at questions on ecosystem effect, what might change to it
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15:59:52 <Alan> ...How should we anticipate and respond to those actions
16:00:01 <wseltzer> ack next
16:00:07 <Alan> ...What do you want to do??
16:00:37 <AramZS> q+
16:00:45 <Alan> Charlie: As someone who's developing specs in some of the other groups.  One thing that would be helpful is to get feedback on the various groups.
16:00:59 <kris_chapman> q+
16:01:04 <Alan> ...How will they address the situations.  What kind of testing is needed, etc.
16:01:15 <Alan> ...Just a suggestion, more feedback is useful.
16:01:17 <wseltzer> ack next
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16:01:46 <wbaker> q+
16:01:59 <Alan> Brian: We spent the first part discussing what we might do. Those are now on the way, we could use input on what works and the impact.
16:02:00 <Alan> q?
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16:02:05 <wseltzer> ack next
16:02:16 <wbaker> q?
16:02:51 <Alan> Aram: It would be great to havve this group generate reports for feedback on how the various activiites are being used.
16:03:10 <Alan> ...Would be great to get that feedback in a more formal way that we could work with.
16:03:12 <Alan> q?
16:03:14 <wseltzer> ack next
16:03:15 <Alan> ack kr
16:03:40 <Alan> Kris: In echoing the same, one of the things that's being proposed people are focused on that.
16:03:51 <bmay> q+
16:04:02 <wseltzer> ack wbaker
16:04:03 <Alan> ...The BG could talk about how to use these things together, we need that coordinations.
16:04:30 <Alan> Wendall: These are some comments I've made earlier.  We use this because it gives us IPR protection.
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16:04:59 <Alan> ...The conversations here are held differently.  We're glad to work on some of the experiments but they are expensive.
16:05:42 <Alan> ...The idea we have is that we appreciated some down time, maybe once a month, once a quarter with a full agenda would be great.
16:05:56 <Alan> ...PAT WG is doing once a month and that is working.
16:06:08 <wseltzer> ack next
16:06:11 <Alan> ...We should try to have a full agenda and a timing that works for it.
16:06:31 <Alan> Brian: From the adtech side, we're finding it difficult to find collaborators.
16:06:50 <Alan> ...We can provide some insight, but we need others with different sides.
16:06:57 <wseltzer> q?
16:07:03 <Alan> ...The BG could provide a coordination place.
16:07:27 <Alan> [Wendy updates slides in real time]
16:07:37 <thomas-prieur_criteo> q+
16:07:52 <lbasdevant> q+
16:08:08 <lbasdevant> q-
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16:08:38 <Alan> Wendy: The next thing any of these require is folks to work on them.  In a WG the next step would be a call for editors.
16:09:16 <wseltzer> q?
16:09:27 <Alan> ...None of these is a spec, but each might have a project with it.  If anyone wants to raise a hand here to find others to work on one of these items, or add something.
16:09:36 <Alan> ack tho
16:09:46 <Alan> Thomas: @@@@@@@@
16:10:42 <lbasdevant> q+
16:10:51 <Alan> ack lba
16:10:55 <kleber> s/@@@@@@@@/Make it possible for people to understand what all the proposals are, provide way for new people to understand what has happened/
16:11:25 <Alan> $$$: ***********
16:11:52 <kleber> s/$$$/Lioned Basdevant/
16:11:54 <kris_chapman> q+
16:11:54 <Alan> Wendy: Avoid duplication.  If we do a review it would be both within the group, collected here and not aiming to do work twice.
16:12:03 <kleber> s/Lioned/Lionel/
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16:12:37 <Alan> Kris: One of the things I do for SF is to make things readable and how they coordinate.  I'll talk to SF about making that work public and using it as a jumping off point.
16:12:59 <wseltzer> q?
16:13:01 <Alan> Wendy: Fantastic.  If others are doing the same, we could build a joint documentaround this.
16:13:04 <wseltzer> ack kris_chapma
16:13:34 <Alan> ...We could seet some of that up in Github to allow collaboration.
16:13:56 <Alan> ...We don't need to get the names right now but we can send a call out to the mailing list as well.
16:14:21 <Alan> ...I heard some +1s around the room, do we think the first set is feedback on the proposals
16:14:30 <vinod> q+
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16:14:37 <Alan> ...or a mapping of opportunity for business users
16:14:55 <Alan> ...to see how things might fit together and explanitory documents
16:14:57 <wseltzer> ack next
16:15:42 <Alan> Vinod: In talking to other groups, there are folks outside of W3C that come to mind.  I think coordination and collaboration with these groups could be beneficial.
16:15:52 <AramZS> q?
16:15:56 <AramZS> q+
16:16:11 <Alan> Wendy: We currently have some informal relationships with some of these, some of our Members have relationships.
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16:16:32 <Alan> ...Some I know and talk to, others I don't so if you could put the list in IRC it would be appreciated.
16:16:35 <Alan> ack nex
16:17:11 <wseltzer> ack next
16:17:25 <Alan> Aram: Relative to working with these, from the PAT CG that's part of our mission.  The BG should talk about how the work impacts other.
16:17:37 <Alan> ...Getting them to give us consistent feedback would be good.
16:17:39 <alextcone> q+
16:18:07 <Alan> ...We tried to formalize this in the Charter, but we need to get them involved in the CG and here.
16:18:08 <Alan> q?
16:18:12 <Alan> ack alex
16:18:25 <vinod> Some of the industry bodies that have certifications / guidelines / standards in place: IAB Tech Lab, Media Rating Council, Trustworthy Accountability Group, IAB UK, World Federation of Advertisers (GARM).
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16:19:15 <Alan> Alex: I just wanted to note that the Geotech has the need to work together.  I think Tech Lab and ICU have a need to reach out.
16:19:34 <Alan> Vinod: I was a part of that and agree.
16:19:38 <wseltzer> q?
16:20:06 <kris_chapman> q+
16:20:17 <Alan> Wendy: One of the functions we've tried to do is be a pointer to other resources in W3C and where their interest might fit.
16:20:19 <Alan> ack kr
16:20:34 <kris_chapman> https://gitmind.com/app/flowchart/08a12084067
16:21:10 <Alan> Kris: In the Feb ID CG one of the things we've been trying to do is develop a decision tree for developers.  Something similar for the ad work would be useful and help with coordination.
16:21:11 <alextcone> For the record: I mentioned that Rachit Sharma from IAB Tech Lab, who is here this week at TPAC, is organizing feedback from the IAB Tech Lab community on various ads related proposals.
16:21:22 <bmay> q+
16:21:50 <kleber> +1 to Kris's decision trees!  I am envious!
16:21:54 <Alan> Wendy: Sounds like a great idea and if we could get some skill sharing to build them it would be helpful.
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16:22:19 <wseltzer> ack next
16:22:22 <Alan> Brian: I think there are bus folks that see the trade press but need a mapping to help them get involved in the conversation.
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16:22:47 <npd> present+
16:22:55 <jeff> present+
16:23:04 <Alan> Wendy: I'd like to take these ideas and circulate them to see if we can get some folks to sign up to develop drafts, etc.
16:23:27 <Alan> ...If someone wanted to start working on this and share it with the group it woulld be welcome.
16:23:56 <Alan> ...One of the questions we tackled early on is when do we seek consensus, whos endorsement it would have, etc.
16:24:13 <Alan> ...We have diverse opinions, a range of views and in the work.
16:24:31 <kris_chapman> q+ I'll volunteer to do an initial flow chart/decision tree if folks say which use case we should start with?
16:24:44 <Alan> ...It would be interesting to see what we could drive to consensus.  Where we could use issue tags to flag disagreements
16:24:49 <Alan> q+ Kris
16:24:59 <jeff> q+ to comment on consensus documents
16:25:03 <Alan> ...Think the only way to do it is try and see what happens
16:25:31 <Alan> Kris: I'll volunteer to do a flowchart, but we need to decide what use case to see where to start
16:25:38 <Alan> ack kri
16:25:51 <Alan> Wendy: So ideas for an initial use case
16:26:03 <Alan> Kris: I'll assume ad serving on a use case
16:26:10 <Alan> Brian: I agree and will help
16:26:27 <Alan> Wendy: Thanks, let me know what resources you need to start doing that
16:26:28 <wseltzer> ack jeff
16:26:28 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to comment on consensus documents
16:26:30 <Alan> ack jef
16:26:54 <Alan> Jeff: Since you raised the question on what kind of consensus document you could right, I wanted to throw out one idea
16:27:13 <wseltzer> s/right/write/
16:27:26 <Alan> ...You could have one on the state of Web Advertising in 2023 that could capture the various groups ideas
16:28:00 <Alan> q?
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16:28:28 <Alan> Wendy: That fits with docuemnts and explainers notions we discussed
16:28:34 <wseltzer> q?
16:28:40 <ddabbs> +queue
16:28:41 <bmay> q+
16:28:52 <Alan> ack dd
16:29:02 <jeff> s/group ideas/group ideas and embeds in the document a respectful discussion of differing points of view/
16:29:27 <Alan> David: I was curious, I see you mentioned PAT CG.  Is it "graduating" to a WG so it won't have open access?
16:30:04 <Alan> Aram: It is a second group, the CG will continue exploration, the WG is to do the formal work to create Recommendations
16:30:36 <Alan> ...The CG will continue to focus on the initial documents that could be referred to the WG and continue to engage the community
16:30:52 <Alan> David: Is there any association with the PING or does that wait?
16:31:10 <npd> PING will help with horizontal review, review privacy considerations of any standards-track deliverables of the PATWG
16:31:12 <Alan> Aram: There is overlap but they do vertical reviews that we would want to leverage
16:31:42 <Alan> Wendy: A WG is open to W3C Members and IEs.  We aim to get input from all angles and input mechanisms.
16:32:00 <Alan> ...We do calls for reviews by folks that could be affected by a spec
16:32:07 <wseltzer> ack next
16:32:13 <Alan> ...We'll still have plenty of ways for folks to still be involved.
16:32:59 <Alan> Brian: I like Jeff's suggestion that we put together a ducment on the state of web advertising in 2023.  Not sure of how to do it but I'd be interested on workin on such a thing.
16:33:01 <Alan> q?
16:33:38 <Alan> Karl: I'd like to volunteer to bring some prospectives to the reports.
16:34:26 <Alan> ...We (Snake Nation) work with a lot of brands.  There are some key players that should be interested so I would offer that we should highlight Group Black as someone to look at.
16:34:59 <wseltzer> q?
16:35:04 <Alan> Wendy: That's a great suggestion.  How any of these technologies work for customers, users and creators.  Some connections there would be helpful.
16:35:19 <npd> that sounds like a great invitation to present to a future BG meeting, so we can hear about their work and use cases
16:35:47 <Alan> ...I want to encourage all of you who are interested and aren't in the group yet, please click the Join button and you'll be pinged.
16:36:11 <Alan> q?
16:36:46 <Alan> Wendy: That was a great brainstorm and thanks for the interest in pursuing some of those.
16:37:17 <Alan> ...I'll do some calls for volunteers to work on it.  W3C is driven by our participants so we need folks to engage to get it started.
16:37:36 <Alan> ...review of sessions at TPAC that might be of interest.
16:37:44 <kleber> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Iq7i2Rb9MPVddrt3AgHZlpt6ttLY7QenJLkbFqlHqMc/edit?pli=1
16:39:24 <charlieharrison> q+
16:39:52 <Alan> Kris: Right after this the Fed ID CG is meeting.  If you're not familiar with this you might want to attend.
16:39:54 <Alan> ack char
16:39:59 <npd> q+ bensavage
16:40:14 <Alan> Charlie: There's a meeting on attribution reporting on Friday
16:40:17 <npd> ack bensavage
16:40:31 <wseltzer> q?
16:41:01 <npd> ben: IP address privacy session, and fenced frames, likely to be of interest to businesses
16:41:29 <wseltzer> Topic: AOB
16:41:34 <bmay> q+
16:42:11 <wseltzer> ack bm
16:42:15 <Alan> Brian: I've been saying that I've been working on advertising for a long time, have seen some things that bothered me and I appreciate what this group is trying to do.
16:42:16 <gendler_> Big thank you to Wendy for her organization of this group!
16:42:41 <Alan> ...I think the potential future might be interesting and is a worthy case.  Something that works for everyone!
16:43:00 <alextcone> +1 on the shout out to Wendy
16:43:05 <Alan> Wendy: Send us out with the charge of the mission to make the web work well for everyone.
16:43:30 <npd> +1 for working on developing advertising infrastructure that isn't invasive, intrusive or harmful
16:43:33 <Alan> ...I'll put up a schedule that fits the suggestion Wendall made of montly calls.
16:43:37 <sarahcortes> thanks Wendy
16:43:41 <Alan> rrsagent set log public
16:43:48 <Alan> rrsagent, set log public
16:43:55 <wseltzer> [adjourned]
16:43:55 <Alan> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
16:43:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/13-web-adv-minutes.html Alan
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