IRC log of web-adv on 2022-09-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/09/13-web-adv-irc
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RRSAgent, make logs Member
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Meeting: Improving Web Advertising BG
15:38:51 [wseltzer]
Topic: Introductions
15:38:59 [wseltzer]
present+
15:39:50 [wseltzer]
[slideset: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1R67R5Pd9NL88s5vn51Y3k50uP7P59YKidSpW0uYjZHo/edit#slide=id.p ]
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present+ Laszlo_Gombos
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present+ Alan
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present+
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present+
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15:48:26 [kleber]
alextcone: So you're still representing IAB Tech Lab here, though your affiliation has changed in other contexts?
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15:49:08 [Alan]
scribenick: Alan
15:49:24 [Alan]
Wendy: Background of group's activities
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15:50:34 [Alan]
...A lot of the work has moved into incubation - WICG and Privacy submissions in 2020
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15:51:01 [Alan]
...PATCG, Fed Id adn Anti-Fraud started in 2021 with some items
15:51:31 [Alan]
...Last month started Charter Review for PAT WG - the formal path for the work coming out of these discussions
15:51:47 [Alan]
[table of W3C Group functions]
15:52:46 [Alan]
...discussion on various groups, licensing, etc.
15:53:17 [ddabbs]
+queue
15:53:33 [lbasdevant]
q?
15:53:34 [Alan]
...BG is a more open structire and tehn we send the work to a more formal structure
15:53:38 [Alan]
ack dd
15:54:07 [kris_chapman]
q+
15:54:08 [Alan]
David: The top right - CG - doesn't produce a normative spec, that has to go to a WG right?
15:54:24 [Alan]
Wendy: Thanks, I'll update the slide in real time to reflect that.
15:55:01 [Alan]
...A WG creates a spec that has had full review from the Membership and horizontal review
15:55:04 [Alan]
ack kri
15:55:35 [Alan]
Kris: When 2 different WGs come up with specs that have different points of view, how is that resolved?
15:56:14 [Alan]
Wendy: We have the TAG that looks at it architecturally. If the two serve different functions they may say both are OK, otherwise they may try to harmonize them.
15:56:33 [Alan]
Juan: Do CG speccs go through the TAG?
15:56:49 [lbasdevant]
q+
15:56:53 [Alan]
Wendy: A CG can ask for TAG review as they encourage early submissions
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ack lbas
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#############
15:57:31 [Alan]
Wendy: That is the question of what on-going role do we want for this group.
15:57:59 [Alan]
...If we look at the set of places things have gone, there are groups open to developing the specs started here.
15:58:07 [charlieharrison]
q+
15:58:12 [Alan]
...They are better places for spec focused development.
15:58:26 [Alan]
...I put together this on "what's next"
15:58:35 [Alan]
[What's next slide]
15:59:23 [bmay]
q+
15:59:33 [Alan]
...We could do review, look at questions on ecosystem effect, what might change to it
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15:59:52 [Alan]
...How should we anticipate and respond to those actions
16:00:01 [wseltzer]
ack next
16:00:07 [Alan]
...What do you want to do??
16:00:37 [AramZS]
q+
16:00:45 [Alan]
Charlie: As someone who's developing specs in some of the other groups. One thing that would be helpful is to get feedback on the various groups.
16:00:59 [kris_chapman]
q+
16:01:04 [Alan]
...How will they address the situations. What kind of testing is needed, etc.
16:01:15 [Alan]
...Just a suggestion, more feedback is useful.
16:01:17 [wseltzer]
ack next
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16:01:46 [wbaker]
q+
16:01:59 [Alan]
Brian: We spent the first part discussing what we might do. Those are now on the way, we could use input on what works and the impact.
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q?
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ack next
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q?
16:02:51 [Alan]
Aram: It would be great to havve this group generate reports for feedback on how the various activiites are being used.
16:03:10 [Alan]
...Would be great to get that feedback in a more formal way that we could work with.
16:03:12 [Alan]
q?
16:03:14 [wseltzer]
ack next
16:03:15 [Alan]
ack kr
16:03:40 [Alan]
Kris: In echoing the same, one of the things that's being proposed people are focused on that.
16:03:51 [bmay]
q+
16:04:02 [wseltzer]
ack wbaker
16:04:03 [Alan]
...The BG could talk about how to use these things together, we need that coordinations.
16:04:30 [Alan]
Wendall: These are some comments I've made earlier. We use this because it gives us IPR protection.
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16:04:59 [Alan]
...The conversations here are held differently. We're glad to work on some of the experiments but they are expensive.
16:05:42 [Alan]
...The idea we have is that we appreciated some down time, maybe once a month, once a quarter with a full agenda would be great.
16:05:56 [Alan]
...PAT WG is doing once a month and that is working.
16:06:08 [wseltzer]
ack next
16:06:11 [Alan]
...We should try to have a full agenda and a timing that works for it.
16:06:31 [Alan]
Brian: From the adtech side, we're finding it difficult to find collaborators.
16:06:50 [Alan]
...We can provide some insight, but we need others with different sides.
16:06:57 [wseltzer]
q?
16:07:03 [Alan]
...The BG could provide a coordination place.
16:07:27 [Alan]
[Wendy updates slides in real time]
16:07:37 [thomas-prieur_criteo]
q+
16:07:52 [lbasdevant]
q+
16:08:08 [lbasdevant]
q-
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16:08:38 [Alan]
Wendy: The next thing any of these require is folks to work on them. In a WG the next step would be a call for editors.
16:09:16 [wseltzer]
q?
16:09:27 [Alan]
...None of these is a spec, but each might have a project with it. If anyone wants to raise a hand here to find others to work on one of these items, or add something.
16:09:36 [Alan]
ack tho
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Thomas: @@@@@@@@
16:10:42 [lbasdevant]
q+
16:10:51 [Alan]
ack lba
16:10:55 [kleber]
s/@@@@@@@@/Make it possible for people to understand what all the proposals are, provide way for new people to understand what has happened/
16:11:25 [Alan]
$$$: ***********
16:11:52 [kleber]
s/$$$/Lioned Basdevant/
16:11:54 [kris_chapman]
q+
16:11:54 [Alan]
Wendy: Avoid duplication. If we do a review it would be both within the group, collected here and not aiming to do work twice.
16:12:03 [kleber]
s/Lioned/Lionel/
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16:12:37 [Alan]
Kris: One of the things I do for SF is to make things readable and how they coordinate. I'll talk to SF about making that work public and using it as a jumping off point.
16:12:59 [wseltzer]
q?
16:13:01 [Alan]
Wendy: Fantastic. If others are doing the same, we could build a joint documentaround this.
16:13:04 [wseltzer]
ack kris_chapma
16:13:34 [Alan]
...We could seet some of that up in Github to allow collaboration.
16:13:56 [Alan]
...We don't need to get the names right now but we can send a call out to the mailing list as well.
16:14:21 [Alan]
...I heard some +1s around the room, do we think the first set is feedback on the proposals
16:14:30 [vinod]
q+
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16:14:37 [Alan]
...or a mapping of opportunity for business users
16:14:55 [Alan]
...to see how things might fit together and explanitory documents
16:14:57 [wseltzer]
ack next
16:15:42 [Alan]
Vinod: In talking to other groups, there are folks outside of W3C that come to mind. I think coordination and collaboration with these groups could be beneficial.
16:15:52 [AramZS]
q?
16:15:56 [AramZS]
q+
16:16:11 [Alan]
Wendy: We currently have some informal relationships with some of these, some of our Members have relationships.
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16:16:32 [Alan]
...Some I know and talk to, others I don't so if you could put the list in IRC it would be appreciated.
16:16:35 [Alan]
ack nex
16:17:11 [wseltzer]
ack next
16:17:25 [Alan]
Aram: Relative to working with these, from the PAT CG that's part of our mission. The BG should talk about how the work impacts other.
16:17:37 [Alan]
...Getting them to give us consistent feedback would be good.
16:17:39 [alextcone]
q+
16:18:07 [Alan]
...We tried to formalize this in the Charter, but we need to get them involved in the CG and here.
16:18:08 [Alan]
q?
16:18:12 [Alan]
ack alex
16:18:25 [vinod]
Some of the industry bodies that have certifications / guidelines / standards in place: IAB Tech Lab, Media Rating Council, Trustworthy Accountability Group, IAB UK, World Federation of Advertisers (GARM).
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16:19:15 [Alan]
Alex: I just wanted to note that the Geotech has the need to work together. I think Tech Lab and ICU have a need to reach out.
16:19:34 [Alan]
Vinod: I was a part of that and agree.
16:19:38 [wseltzer]
q?
16:20:06 [kris_chapman]
q+
16:20:17 [Alan]
Wendy: One of the functions we've tried to do is be a pointer to other resources in W3C and where their interest might fit.
16:20:19 [Alan]
ack kr
16:20:34 [kris_chapman]
https://gitmind.com/app/flowchart/08a12084067
16:21:10 [Alan]
Kris: In the Feb ID CG one of the things we've been trying to do is develop a decision tree for developers. Something similar for the ad work would be useful and help with coordination.
16:21:11 [alextcone]
For the record: I mentioned that Rachit Sharma from IAB Tech Lab, who is here this week at TPAC, is organizing feedback from the IAB Tech Lab community on various ads related proposals.
16:21:22 [bmay]
q+
16:21:50 [kleber]
+1 to Kris's decision trees! I am envious!
16:21:54 [Alan]
Wendy: Sounds like a great idea and if we could get some skill sharing to build them it would be helpful.
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16:22:19 [wseltzer]
ack next
16:22:22 [Alan]
Brian: I think there are bus folks that see the trade press but need a mapping to help them get involved in the conversation.
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16:22:47 [npd]
present+
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present+
16:23:04 [Alan]
Wendy: I'd like to take these ideas and circulate them to see if we can get some folks to sign up to develop drafts, etc.
16:23:27 [Alan]
...If someone wanted to start working on this and share it with the group it woulld be welcome.
16:23:56 [Alan]
...One of the questions we tackled early on is when do we seek consensus, whos endorsement it would have, etc.
16:24:13 [Alan]
...We have diverse opinions, a range of views and in the work.
16:24:31 [kris_chapman]
q+ I'll volunteer to do an initial flow chart/decision tree if folks say which use case we should start with?
16:24:44 [Alan]
...It would be interesting to see what we could drive to consensus. Where we could use issue tags to flag disagreements
16:24:49 [Alan]
q+ Kris
16:24:59 [jeff]
q+ to comment on consensus documents
16:25:03 [Alan]
...Think the only way to do it is try and see what happens
16:25:31 [Alan]
Kris: I'll volunteer to do a flowchart, but we need to decide what use case to see where to start
16:25:38 [Alan]
ack kri
16:25:51 [Alan]
Wendy: So ideas for an initial use case
16:26:03 [Alan]
Kris: I'll assume ad serving on a use case
16:26:10 [Alan]
Brian: I agree and will help
16:26:27 [Alan]
Wendy: Thanks, let me know what resources you need to start doing that
16:26:28 [wseltzer]
ack jeff
16:26:28 [Zakim]
jeff, you wanted to comment on consensus documents
16:26:30 [Alan]
ack jef
16:26:54 [Alan]
Jeff: Since you raised the question on what kind of consensus document you could right, I wanted to throw out one idea
16:27:13 [wseltzer]
s/right/write/
16:27:26 [Alan]
...You could have one on the state of Web Advertising in 2023 that could capture the various groups ideas
16:28:00 [Alan]
q?
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16:28:28 [Alan]
Wendy: That fits with docuemnts and explainers notions we discussed
16:28:34 [wseltzer]
q?
16:28:40 [ddabbs]
+queue
16:28:41 [bmay]
q+
16:28:52 [Alan]
ack dd
16:29:02 [jeff]
s/group ideas/group ideas and embeds in the document a respectful discussion of differing points of view/
16:29:27 [Alan]
David: I was curious, I see you mentioned PAT CG. Is it "graduating" to a WG so it won't have open access?
16:30:04 [Alan]
Aram: It is a second group, the CG will continue exploration, the WG is to do the formal work to create Recommendations
16:30:36 [Alan]
...The CG will continue to focus on the initial documents that could be referred to the WG and continue to engage the community
16:30:52 [Alan]
David: Is there any association with the PING or does that wait?
16:31:10 [npd]
PING will help with horizontal review, review privacy considerations of any standards-track deliverables of the PATWG
16:31:12 [Alan]
Aram: There is overlap but they do vertical reviews that we would want to leverage
16:31:42 [Alan]
Wendy: A WG is open to W3C Members and IEs. We aim to get input from all angles and input mechanisms.
16:32:00 [Alan]
...We do calls for reviews by folks that could be affected by a spec
16:32:07 [wseltzer]
ack next
16:32:13 [Alan]
...We'll still have plenty of ways for folks to still be involved.
16:32:59 [Alan]
Brian: I like Jeff's suggestion that we put together a ducment on the state of web advertising in 2023. Not sure of how to do it but I'd be interested on workin on such a thing.
16:33:01 [Alan]
q?
16:33:38 [Alan]
Karl: I'd like to volunteer to bring some prospectives to the reports.
16:34:26 [Alan]
...We (Snake Nation) work with a lot of brands. There are some key players that should be interested so I would offer that we should highlight Group Black as someone to look at.
16:34:59 [wseltzer]
q?
16:35:04 [Alan]
Wendy: That's a great suggestion. How any of these technologies work for customers, users and creators. Some connections there would be helpful.
16:35:19 [npd]
that sounds like a great invitation to present to a future BG meeting, so we can hear about their work and use cases
16:35:47 [Alan]
...I want to encourage all of you who are interested and aren't in the group yet, please click the Join button and you'll be pinged.
16:36:11 [Alan]
q?
16:36:46 [Alan]
Wendy: That was a great brainstorm and thanks for the interest in pursuing some of those.
16:37:17 [Alan]
...I'll do some calls for volunteers to work on it. W3C is driven by our participants so we need folks to engage to get it started.
16:37:36 [Alan]
...review of sessions at TPAC that might be of interest.
16:37:44 [kleber]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Iq7i2Rb9MPVddrt3AgHZlpt6ttLY7QenJLkbFqlHqMc/edit?pli=1
16:39:24 [charlieharrison]
q+
16:39:52 [Alan]
Kris: Right after this the Fed ID CG is meeting. If you're not familiar with this you might want to attend.
16:39:54 [Alan]
ack char
16:39:59 [npd]
q+ bensavage
16:40:14 [Alan]
Charlie: There's a meeting on attribution reporting on Friday
16:40:17 [npd]
ack bensavage
16:40:31 [wseltzer]
q?
16:41:01 [npd]
ben: IP address privacy session, and fenced frames, likely to be of interest to businesses
16:41:29 [wseltzer]
Topic: AOB
16:41:34 [bmay]
q+
16:42:11 [wseltzer]
ack bm
16:42:15 [Alan]
Brian: I've been saying that I've been working on advertising for a long time, have seen some things that bothered me and I appreciate what this group is trying to do.
16:42:16 [gendler_]
Big thank you to Wendy for her organization of this group!
16:42:41 [Alan]
...I think the potential future might be interesting and is a worthy case. Something that works for everyone!
16:43:00 [alextcone]
+1 on the shout out to Wendy
16:43:05 [Alan]
Wendy: Send us out with the charge of the mission to make the web work well for everyone.
16:43:30 [npd]
+1 for working on developing advertising infrastructure that isn't invasive, intrusive or harmful
16:43:33 [Alan]
...I'll put up a schedule that fits the suggestion Wendall made of montly calls.
16:43:37 [sarahcortes]
thanks Wendy
16:43:41 [Alan]
rrsagent set log public
16:43:48 [Alan]
rrsagent, set log public
16:43:55 [wseltzer]
[adjourned]
16:43:55 [Alan]
rrsagent, draft minutes v2
16:43:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/09/13-web-adv-minutes.html Alan
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