18:06:31 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:06:31 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/08/30-aria-apg-irc 18:06:36 MEETING: Authoring Practices Task Force 18:06:40 present+ 18:06:43 agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/August-30%2C-2022-Agenda 18:06:44 rrsagent, make log public 18:06:54 rrsagent, make minutes 18:06:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/30-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 18:06:55 jamesn has joined #aria-apg 18:07:25 present+ 18:07:46 scribe: MarkMcCarthy 18:07:58 TOPIC: Check-in on restructure 18:08:15 Matt_King: this is the project to literally restructure all apg content 18:08:36 Matt_King: when we're all done there will be no aria-practices.html file. first step is to move all the patterns and examples to a new content tree 18:08:58 Matt_King: all examples moved, 50% of patterns moved (now that I finished my dialog novel ;-) ) 18:09:17 s/moved /moved and i'll get the rest moved 18:09:32 Matt_King: the redirect is set up too. rich, updates? 18:10:09 rich: one thing we had to do is review PR 2402; i had alex do it because he's familiar with it. he found some differences which are noted in the PR. if you or someone withthe TF could review and make sure it's what we want 18:10:24 rich: that'll allow us to unblock PR 2441 18:10:37 rich: we have 2444, 2450, 2451 ready for your review Matt_King 18:10:52 rich: not blockers, but I don't want to cause a traffic jam either 18:11:58 rich: alex did skip one of the tasks that was noted. most recent task (9) (update coverage report JS) is next 18:12:11 rich: after that, he'll get back to updating the gh-pages project 18:12:16 Siri has joined #Aria-apg 18:12:32 rich: after these couple tasks, there will be 3 left. we're a little ahead but it'll depend on reviews etc. 18:12:58 rich: i'm sticking to our original plan for now, though, and will revise closer to the end of the week if we'll be ready by TPAC 18:13:21 Matt_King: if there are visual changes about SkipTo, someone sighted will need to check that. my personal most important item is the copyright statement 18:13:39 rich: alex said there are some visual changes due to our config, and his vote is we keep what we have for now 18:14:17 rich: whoever would like to review this, i'll add you. i'd love to have at least one TF reviewer 18:14:38 #2402 18:14:38 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2402 : Skipto update and removing jumpto.js 18:15:08 rich: the merging of 2402 would unblock 2441 18:15:27 Link to pr 2402: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2402 18:16:26 jamesn: is there a preview link anywhere? 18:16:49 Matt_King: i can't find one, rich, do we have one? 18:17:24 Matt_King: could Alex get a netlify preview running for us? we'd need that before we could review 18:17:45 rich: i just pinged him, will update if he gets back to me. if we get a preview deployed, i'll have him update the PR. 18:18:19 Matt_King: i'd love to get a volunteer now, then once the preview link is ready they can get in there 18:18:27 Matt_King: we want to compare it to what we currently have 18:18:50 MarkMcCarthy: I can't this week 18:18:55 Matt_King: no worries, Siri can you? 18:19:39 Siri: once it's ready, sure. 18:20:18 Matt_King: i think the recommendation is we reject the visual changes that are present in this PR and keep what we have 18:20:51 jamesn: i'm having a hard time seeing anything that's actually different. it removed jumpto, adds skipto, and some spacing changes. there shouldn't be changes to the library... it's just changing a function, near as I can tell 18:21:40 jamesn: the only other change is when Jon changed overflow-y to `clip` 18:22:01 Matt_King: the version here is the version i don't think PayPal has merged yet 18:22:27 Matt_King: for all practical purposes, this is a fork of the current main, and is Jon's work 18:23:07 Matt_King: this is a CSS issue? 18:23:13 jamesn: it's all inline styling basically 18:23:32 Matt_King: ok - let's get the preview asap so we can review it 18:23:42 Matt_King: i'll work on the other stuff 18:23:49 TOPIC: New issue action planning 18:24:02 Matt_King: time to go through new issues 18:24:10 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+created%3A%3E2021-08-15+no%3Alabel++sort%3Aupdated-desc 18:24:22 TOPIC: Accordion documentation... 2443 18:24:44 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2443 18:27:31 Matt_King: is it common to hide accordion content by changing its height? that seems bizarre to me 18:27:42 Bryan: I wouldn't recommend that, to begin with 18:28:24 Matt_King: we don't typically explain JS techniques (i also thought we were using display: none) 18:28:32 Bryan: display: none and hidden do the same thing 18:28:55 jamesn: if hidden is "semantically" correct, then we should be using it here. if not, lets use display: none 18:29:26 jamesn: [reading HTML's definition of hidden] 18:30:42 https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/interaction.html#attr-hidden-until-found-state 18:31:07 jamesn: found this interesting thing - not that it should really be used on accordions 18:31:24 Matt_King: this -could- be an interesting argument for hidden on accordions though 18:31:29 jamesn: does anything support this? 18:31:35 Matt_King: no clue - never heard of it before 18:31:51 Bryan: i don't think it'll work with JAWS, since it doesn't use the browser's ctrl-f 18:31:58 Matt_King: that's JAWS' issue though 18:32:11 Bryan: yeah that's true 18:32:26 jamesn: hidden-until-found is currently only supported in Chromium 102+ 18:32:48 Description of accordion: An accordion is a vertically stacked set of interactive headings that each contain a title, content snippet, or thumbnail representing a section of content. 18:32:50 The headings function as controls that enable users to reveal or hide their associated sections of content. Accordions are commonly used to reduce the 18:32:51 need to scroll when presenting multiple sections of content on a single page. 18:33:31 Matt_King: we talk about showing or hiding content. so that's clear based on the description, and everything is consistent with the description 18:34:02 Matt_King: we don't talk about, in any pattern, about what elements to use. the APG isn't here to teach or prescribe engineering or functional code, it's only meant as a guide for what to do (not HOW) 18:34:22 Matt_King: and THAT is why we don't discuss the hidden attribute specifically in the pattern 18:34:50 Matt_King: does anyone think we should make an exception for accordion? 18:36:49 MarkMcCarthy: i think it's up to engineers to decide what to use and how to do it 18:36:55 Siri: +1 18:36:57 jamesn: +1 18:37:08 Matt_King: and it's up to APG to guide those considerations? 18:37:09 MarkMcCarthy: right 18:37:29 TOPIC: Why is the Disclosure FAQ widget not an Accordion? 18:39:52 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2445 18:41:19 Matt_King: i think the answer is you can do an FAQ as an accordion, or a series of disclosure buttons, whatever you want. this is just an example of disclosures. 18:42:56 MarkMcCarthy: I think it goes back to your previous answer - it's just a demo for disclosures, not a prescription for how to make an FAQ/disclosure pattern 18:43:56 Matt_King: makes sense - this is just one type of thing you could use a disclosure for, not THE way to make FAQs. Is there any reason to think we SHOULDN'T use an FAQ? 18:44:16 Bryan: I don't think there's one, I've seen it done both ways, and I don't think one is preferable over the other. 18:44:35 s/preferable /necessary preferable 18:45:09 Siri: one includes headings and regions, one doesn't. it's basically interchangeable, and each have their benefits and drawbacks. 18:46:14 TOPIC: Keyboard Interface: List which operable elements (should) respond to SPACE, and which to ENTER #2447 18:46:15 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2447 : Keyboard Interface: List which operable elements (should) respond to SPACE, and which to ENTER 18:46:22 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2447 18:47:56 Matt_King: when enter or space does something, it is there? 18:48:16 jamesn: i think he's talking about having it all in one place, rather than each example showing one, both, or none. 18:49:06 jamesn: could be a section in activation behavior, explain the defaults on each platform 18:49:36 Matt_King: space doesn't activate links? 18:50:08 jamesn: no, but it does on buttons. Melanie filed an issue about it, that space should activate an anchor element, since that all can be confusing to a sighted user 18:50:22 Matt_King: would this be better suited to HTML? 18:50:46 jamesn: if you're creating an aria widget, not an HTML one, then where do you put the information for what they keystrokes should respond to? 18:51:11 jamesn: ultimately - this issue is asking for what -current- behaviors are and to have it documented in one place. 18:51:39 jamesn: that's something that a PR could be easily made for 18:53:03 jamesn: i'll add a comment 18:53:18 TOPIC: 2 of 4 sliders not compliant with WCAG SC 2.5.2 #2446 18:53:19 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2446 : 2 of 4 sliders are not compliant with WCAG SC 2.5.2 18:54:17 Matt_King: if this is correct, sounds like there's a bug in our sliders 18:55:00 Matt_King: i'd have thought they were all using the same JS, curious 18:55:46 Matt_King: I trust JAWS-test, so there's probably a bug somewhere. 18:55:55 jamesn: but a native HTML range responds to a down event too 18:55:59 Matt_King: are we using one? 18:56:10 jamesn: if even the native stuff doesn't comply here... 18:56:16 Matt_King: then that's a browser bug 18:56:56 Matt_King: regardless - if our sliders aren't compliant, i'd like them to be. 18:57:12 Matt_King: we'd need some mousers to test and look at this 18:58:01 jamesn: reading through 2.5.2, I don't think this applies. it can be undone by resetting the slider's position 18:58:22 jamesn: Abort or Undo: Completion of the function is on the up-event, and a mechanism is available to abort the function before completion or to **undo the function after completion**; 18:58:30 jamesn: is moving the slider a function? not sure 18:58:48 Siri: I thought that'd only apply to buttons that adjust a slider, not one with thumbs 18:58:56 jamesn: right - i don't think this applies here 19:00:02 jamesn: if you were dragging a slider, and you move the cursor off and the slider resets, that'd be really *weird* 19:00:09 Matt_King: and would hinder users with jitters etc. 19:00:23 Matt_King: either way, interesting that there are 2 that work that way and 2 that don't 19:00:57 Matt_King: sounds like the ones that don't comply are just less user friendly? 19:01:48 jamesn: maybe JAWS-test means if you click *on the slider itself* and move away... it changes on.mouse*UP* one 2 of them, and on.mouse*DOWN* on the other two. if that's the case, that's a reasonable change 19:02:17 jamesn: in that case, things should be consistent. 19:02:41 Siri: i didn't even think about using a slider that way, i'm glad you pointed it out 19:03:08 jamesn: still may not be a failure, since you can reset it, even if you don't know the initial state, and that could be an improvement 19:03:24 jamesn: there could be many ways to build in an undo, too 19:03:39 Matt_King: so the problem seems to be NOT with dragging the pointer, it's with a single click on the rail 19:03:44 jamesn: i think so 19:05:23 jamesn: we need the down event though, you can't get fine adjustments without it 19:06:07 curt: i agree - it'd be nonsensical to move it only on the up event 19:06:21 jamesn: the exception in the SC is that the value/slider can be reset 19:06:27 zakim, who is here? 19:06:27 Present: MarkMcCarthy, jamesn 19:06:29 On IRC I see Siri, jamesn, RRSAgent, Zakim, MarkMcCarthy, Matt_King, MichaelC, github-bot, ZoeBijl, Mike5Matrix, Github, trackbot 19:06:41 present+ CurtBellew Siri BryanGaraventa RichNoah 19:08:18 TOPIC: Thanks gang 19:08:27 TOPIC: Next Meeting 19:08:42 September 5. See you all then 19:09:09 rrsagent, make minutes 19:09:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/30-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 22:17:22 Zakim has left #aria-apg