11:47:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag3-equity
11:47:42 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/08/22-wcag3-equity-irc
11:47:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
11:47:46 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jeanne
11:48:00 <janina> janina has joined #wcag3-equity
11:48:04 <jeanne> Meeting: WCAG3 Equity Subgroup
11:48:04 <jeanne> present:
11:48:04 <jeanne> chair: Janina, jeanne
11:48:04 <jeanne> present+
11:48:05 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
11:48:05 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
11:48:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/22-wcag3-equity-minutes.html jeanne
11:48:05 <Zakim> agenda cleared
11:48:05 <jeanne> q?
11:57:13 <JenS> JenS has joined #wcag3-equity
11:57:18 <JenS> present+
12:03:12 <laura> laura has joined #wcag3-equity
12:03:51 <Cyborg> Cyborg has joined #wcag3-equity
12:05:35 <jeanne> agenda+ Review Recommendations
12:05:44 <laura> present+ Laura_Carlson
12:05:48 <jeanne> agenda+ Finalize points that Describing Equity in WCAG3 - not a definition
12:06:33 <janina> present+
12:06:36 <MichaelC> present+
12:06:38 <Cyborg> Present+
12:06:42 <MichaelC> scribe+
12:07:27 <MichaelC> js: we´re only getting 7 weeks of the planned 8
12:07:38 <MichaelC> thought we´d skip doing a report, but they still want them
12:07:46 <MichaelC> we´ll present Friday at Silver meeting
12:08:02 <MichaelC> zakim, take up item 2
12:08:02 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Finalize points that Describing Equity in WCAG3 - not a definition -- taken up [from jeanne]
12:08:07 <Cyborg> for some reason i can't find the agenda...
12:08:13 <Cyborg> can someone please resend? thanks
12:08:16 <janina> agenda?
12:08:44 <jeanne> Presentation draft -> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1es3HvWu_NmNDJv4mdTnAlfQFeVhsKxw5CmreAvpAzRk/edit?usp=sharing
12:09:07 <MichaelC> js: notes, that´s text-dense and needs shortening
12:09:26 <MichaelC> don´t want to edit peoples´ work w/o permission
12:09:39 <MichaelC> start with equity vs equal
12:10:04 <MichaelC> then go into outcome, state, process
12:10:21 <MichaelC> look at equity from each of those perspectives
12:11:05 <janina> q?
12:11:25 <MichaelC> kept ¨Usability for a site at a given conformance level is approximately equivalent across disability groups¨
12:11:47 <MichaelC> state = point in time
12:11:51 <MichaelC> result = outcome
12:11:54 <janina> q+ re outcomes in equity vs. outcomes and methods
12:11:57 <MichaelC> how I tried to group those
12:12:22 <MichaelC> I took the definition proposals into one of those three buckets
12:12:29 <MichaelC> then went into known challenges and questions
12:12:34 <Cyborg> q+
12:12:34 <MichaelC> q+
12:12:41 <JenS> From in the Google doc: State: the particular condition that someone or something is in at a specific time. Outcome: the way a thing turns out; a consequence.  From Oxford Languages: https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en
12:13:05 <MichaelC> janina: can we combine the two?
12:13:40 <MichaelC> doing so will help avoid confusion of terms
12:13:50 <janina> ack jan
12:13:50 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to discuss outcomes in equity vs. outcomes and methods
12:13:54 <MichaelC> (state and outcome), as differentiated from process
12:13:57 <JenS> q+
12:14:43 <MichaelC> cs: I added a number of comments to the google doc
12:15:55 <MichaelC> <scribe got lost about what´s where>
12:16:13 <MichaelC> cs: added reference to design justice principles
12:16:24 <MichaelC> define inequity as problem before defining equity as solution
12:16:54 <MichaelC> for process, can it be part of conformance model?
12:17:00 <MichaelC> js: put under recommendations
12:17:07 <MichaelC> the first 2 not sure if we have time
12:17:11 <MichaelC> ack c
12:17:24 <MichaelC> cs: these aren´t new points
12:18:20 <MichaelC> and we need to demonstrate the harms of inequity when people ask why we want to do it
12:18:29 <MichaelC> js: it´s time consuming to develop use cases
12:18:40 <MichaelC> if someone can work on it, great
12:18:43 <MichaelC> cs: meant as a framing
12:19:21 <jeanne> scribe+ jeanne
12:19:22 <janina> scribe+ janina
12:19:50 <janina> MichaelC: Don't disagree that saying more about inequity is useful, but for now see it as implicit--can fit into later work
12:19:59 <jeanne> MC: I don't object to adding a bullet point on needing to understand inequity, but I don't think we have time in this sprint
12:20:24 <janina> michalre combining outcome and state; possibly
12:20:45 <janina> MichaelC: wcag3 outcome statement would be different; but guideline by guideline, yes, very similar
12:20:50 <jeanne> MC: Possibly Outcome and State and be combined.  Outcome as a noun is relatively equivalent to state
12:21:22 <janina> MichaelC: re verbosity, important to cover content digestibly, maybe shorter bullet points with links into GD
12:21:35 <jeanne> ... the content is what we want to cover.  Suggest we boil it down to bullet points and link to the document
12:21:47 <MichaelC> ack me
12:21:51 <janina> MichaelC: written should be enough for presentation; but we can make references
12:22:13 <MichaelC> jen: don´t think outcome and state mix
12:22:27 <MichaelC> should look at orgs using equity-centered processes
12:22:45 <janina> Jen, aren't you arguing against something no one proposed?
12:23:01 <MichaelC> state is a condition, outcome is a consequence
12:23:36 <MichaelC> we do need to align the lingo
12:24:01 <MichaelC> ok for me to do a readability pass on the slides?
12:24:16 <MichaelC> js: google has some automatic features
12:24:24 <MichaelC> jen: they don´t do enough
12:24:32 <MichaelC> <details>
12:24:34 <janina> Can we please not digress?
12:24:55 <MichaelC> jen: I can´t read this at the moment
12:25:09 <MichaelC> want to make it easy for the group to read, provide ahead of time
12:25:23 <MichaelC> js: I will check display after the content matures
12:25:28 <MichaelC> you can take a pass at that point
12:25:47 <MichaelC> so, I changed slide title to Equity-centered processes
12:25:53 <Cyborg> q+
12:26:10 <MichaelC> objections to editing text, if original linked?
12:26:21 <MichaelC> lc: that will help
12:26:35 <jeanne> ack je
12:26:49 <jeanne> ack cy
12:26:50 <MichaelC> jen: so the slide content is from the google docs?
12:26:56 <MichaelC> q+ to say suggesting
12:27:42 <MichaelC> js: yes
12:28:04 <MichaelC> cs: it´s not clear that we´re discussing 2 things
12:28:09 <MichaelC> how equity is developed in AG
12:28:18 <MichaelC> and how it is achieved via guidelines
12:28:32 <MichaelC> as well as relation on conformance model
12:29:18 <MichaelC> because we have to look at potential inequities in conformance model from many directions
12:29:33 <JenS> q+
12:29:54 <MichaelC> ack me
12:29:54 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say suggesting
12:30:00 <jeanne> ack mi
12:30:56 <MichaelC> mc: suggest using suggesting mode in google docs to highlight your comments
12:31:05 <jeanne> ack jen
12:31:08 <MichaelC> we can review and accept for a new round each weeks
12:31:25 <MichaelC> jen: are slides readable to you?
12:31:54 <MichaelC> janina: generally gsuite is difficult, it´s got keyboard but gotchas
12:32:01 <MichaelC> jen: how will you review?
12:32:13 <MichaelC> janina: I will review with Jeanne
12:32:59 <MichaelC> jen: I´m really struggling to understand the slides
12:33:07 <Cyborg> +1 to Jennifer being able to do the work to make this understandable
12:33:53 <MichaelC> want to make sure people seeing the intro receive a streamlined, impactful message
12:33:59 <MichaelC> q+
12:34:29 <MichaelC> js: I did re-arrange to give structure
12:34:50 <MichaelC> janina: we did think we had a presentation tomorrow, so it was a hasty gathering
12:35:12 <MichaelC> js: we´ll move some content back to the background doc, which will help with review
12:36:40 <MichaelC> ack me
12:36:56 <MichaelC> mc: remember that content development has stages from rough to final
12:37:08 <MichaelC> we have walkthrough of the rough version
12:37:20 <janina> +1 to using "result"
12:37:23 <MichaelC> and the nearly final version will be ready for additional review
12:37:23 <JenS> Please note, my concerns are less about the development of content and more about being able to understand what content is presented — due much to the current presentation of the proposed content.
12:38:17 <Cyborg> q+
12:38:22 <MichaelC> js: what about combine result and state?
12:38:29 <JenS> q+
12:38:41 <MichaelC> mc: if we don´t have consensus to combine, best to leave uncombined at this early stage
12:38:43 <MichaelC> ack cy
12:39:11 <MichaelC> cs: equity-based process holds a journey towards an outcome; along that journey there are states
12:39:17 <JenS> Where something is "proposed" might we label it as such? i.e., "Equity as a state" becomes "Proposed: Equity as a state" — this way we come to understand what we're talking about.
12:39:23 <JenS> +1 to Cyborg
12:39:30 <MichaelC> js: think people would understand that
12:39:46 <MichaelC> cs: that would address process of developing guidelines
12:39:52 <JenS> =1 to Cyborg that along the journey towards equity there are states
12:40:19 <janina> q+ for Cyborg's two definitions of equity process
12:40:24 <MichaelC> if our goal is equity for end users, there is a different process
12:40:44 <MichaelC> within equity-based process we consider the meta-process
12:41:38 <MichaelC> so want to separate a) how do we achieve equity for end users in WCAG 3 b) how do we engage in equity-based process in the development of WCAG 3
12:41:45 <laura> +q
12:42:05 <MichaelC> js: that sounds like great content for the final report, which we´re not ready for yet
12:42:54 <jeanne> ack jen
12:43:42 <MichaelC> jen: Please note, my concerns are less about the development of content and more about being able to understand what content is presented — due much to the current presentation of the proposed content.
12:43:50 <MichaelC> Where something is "proposed" might we label it as such? i.e., "Equity as a state" becomes "Proposed: Equity as a state" — this way we come to understand what we're talking about.
12:45:26 <MichaelC> ack ja
12:45:26 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to discuss Cyborg's two definitions of equity process
12:45:27 <jeanne> ack jan
12:46:53 <MichaelC> janina: capturing that we want to support equity in the impact of a W3C specification, and that that specification itself embody process designed to continue to improve equity as a result of applying equity to its process
12:47:28 <Cyborg> q+
12:47:41 <MichaelC> we need to capture how we do that, but not ¨boil the ocean¨
12:47:46 <MichaelC> maturity model relates to this
12:48:14 <janina> q?
12:48:25 <MichaelC> js: editing slide 3 for that point
12:48:49 <jeanne> ack lau
12:49:04 <MichaelC> lc: thanks for the work and input on this difficult work
12:49:16 <MichaelC> re recommendations, there are a couple in the wiki
12:49:44 <MichaelC>     Achieve AGWG consensus on a clear definition of equity scoped for WCAG 3.
12:49:44 <MichaelC>     Achieve AGWG consensus on the actions and process needed for WCAG 3 to attain equitable results for all disability groups including those who may have been previously marginalized.
12:49:52 <MichaelC> could see a slide for that
12:50:02 <laura> https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki/Equity-Framework
12:50:06 <MichaelC> MichaelC has changed the topic to: WCAG 3 Equity sub-group
12:50:19 <jeanne> ack cy
12:50:43 <MichaelC> cs: I think equity vs inequity fits in slide 2
12:51:17 <MichaelC> +1 to janina´s characterization of what I said
12:51:29 <MichaelC> but some of the details not clar
12:51:33 <MichaelC> s/clar/clear/
12:51:55 <MichaelC> one of my biggest concerns is of inequity being baked into conformance
12:52:40 <MichaelC> the need for equity in the conformance model is something we need to highlight
12:52:46 <MichaelC> js: should conformance have its own slide then?
12:53:01 <MichaelC> q+
12:53:38 <jeanne> ack m
12:53:42 <jeanne> scribe+
12:54:04 <jeanne> MC: The slection of recommendations should be Conformance oriented
12:54:32 <jeanne> ... the filters we have about achievability will have impact on conformance
12:54:58 <jeanne> ... accessibility support of WCAG2 has an equity impact by requiring people to have a level of tech
12:55:10 <jeanne> ... we aren't propose solutions, but we need to document the entire space
12:55:29 <MichaelC> s/should be/should be in part/
12:55:56 <JenS> q+
12:56:58 <MichaelC> jen: another point we need to document is process
12:57:07 <Cyborg> +1 to what Jen just said
12:57:31 <MichaelC> ack j
12:57:37 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
12:57:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/22-wcag3-equity-minutes.html MichaelC
13:58:09 <janina> janina has left #wcag3-equity