IRC log of aria-apg on 2022-08-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:00:13 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/08/16-aria-apg-irc
18:00:33 [Matt_King]
MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:00:42 [Matt_King]
CHAIR: Matt King
18:00:48 [Matt_King]
rrsagent, make log public
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present+
18:00:59 [Matt_King]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/16-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
18:04:12 [Matt_King]
regrets+ Jemma
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regrets+ Curt
18:04:43 [sarah_h]
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present+
18:05:12 [Rich_Noah]
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present+
18:05:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
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present+
18:06:30 [MarkMcCarthy]
scribe: MarkMcCarthy
18:06:51 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Check in for repo restructure project
18:07:08 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: what have you learned this last week Rich_Noah ?
18:07:28 [MarkMcCarthy]
Rich_Noah: we had some issues with the linter, but that's fixed. moving on to some other tests, hoping fixes will propogate
18:07:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
Rich_Noah: should know more by tomorrow
18:08:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: have we started looking into stopping actions that publish updates, with gh-pages?
18:08:47 [MarkMcCarthy]
Rich_Noah: yes, but the issue with the linter took longer than anticipated, we'll get back to it and sort out a plan
18:09:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Multi-Select Listbox Keyboard Guidance
18:09:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2193
18:09:45 [siri]
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18:10:00 [Matt_King]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2193
18:11:13 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: essentially, this issue boils down to this selection model being less familiar than some others
18:11:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i'm not sure i agree with the premise but i want to discuss this with the group
18:12:18 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: first question I have is: is there agreement or disagreement that the model we're using for listbox is unfamiliar?
18:12:47 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: i disagree, I think the APGs is better for usability, which I wrote about in more detail in my comment
18:14:09 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: there are several patterns where we document this kind of multiselect behavior with shift+arrow keys, then if you press an arrow key WITHOUT shift your selection disappears - it's well documented elsewhere
18:14:58 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: this begs the question - if we're gonna document it, should we demonstrate it or is it useful to demonstrate it? it's a lot of work...
18:15:58 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: i don't think we should
18:17:10 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: to me, the visual clue is that if the spacebar checks one (or when holding shift), and pressing an arrow key doesn't make checks go away, it feels very discoverable
18:18:14 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: i'm not opposed to making a note that it's different from the native select pattern
18:18:21 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i thought we already had a note there
18:19:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: under multiselection, it does mention authors may use different patterns or choose among those modifier keys - it doesn't explictly state that this pattern is different from the native pattern
18:20:18 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: there's a note in the radiogroup pattern that notes differences between ours and native
18:20:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: when we were thinking about a note, i was thinking about it going on the example
18:20:49 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: me too - i think it makes more sense since the pattern shows BOTH
18:22:47 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: so should the note say it's different from browser native behavior?
18:23:00 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: i started drafting something before the meeting, maybe that would be good?
18:23:25 [MarkMcCarthy]
[sarah read her note]
18:23:27 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i love that
18:23:30 [MarkMcCarthy]
MarkMcCarthy: +1
18:23:36 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: i'll add it to a comment on the issue
18:23:40 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: and figure out a PR
18:24:03 [siri]
+1
18:24:25 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: maybe we'll put it under the notes section under the examples? or maybe accessibility features? You can decide which is most appropriate
18:24:29 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: notes is probably fine
18:24:31 [MarkMcCarthy]
MarkMcCarthy: +1
18:24:58 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: would you make it a PR against the move-examples branch?
18:25:39 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: that should sort out this issue then
18:25:52 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: New issue action planning
18:26:15 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: let's look at new issues now
18:26:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+created%3A%3E2021-08-15+no%3Alabel++sort%3Aupdated-desc
18:26:54 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Select-Only ComboBox pattern keyboard support clarifications
18:27:00 [MarkMcCarthy]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2440
18:28:51 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: currently the up arrow moves it to the selected item
18:28:56 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: what about if something isn't selected?
18:29:10 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: since 'choose a fruit' is an option, there's never not something selected
18:30:29 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: right now, the single select doesn't follow focus; we don't HAVE to send focus to the currently selected but...
18:30:49 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i think we should, but I'm thinking about what the default state should be
18:31:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: what would happen if it WASN'T in the list
18:31:11 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: i don't remember why we put focus in there in the first place
18:31:19 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: how does HTML select work?
18:31:47 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: ours mirrors HTML select more - it's impossible to add a placeholder. if you need choose something, it HAS to be in the list
18:32:15 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: one of the nice things about building your own is you don't have to worry about things too much
18:32:20 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: what about open_ui?
18:32:27 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: that's even more flexible
18:32:47 [MarkMcCarthy]
siri: maybe one of the reasons we have that is if a user doesn't want to select ANYTHING
18:33:03 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: but if you want to return it to its default state of nothing, how do you do that if it's not in the list?
18:33:20 [MarkMcCarthy]
bryan: the way i've done it in the past with aria-select is to allow the spacebar to toggle/unset aria-selected
18:34:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
bryan: the way I was able to do that was, for the roving tabindex model, was to put tabindex=0 on the first item
18:34:27 [MarkMcCarthy]
bryan: after pressing the spacebar, you can tab away with nothing selected
18:35:19 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: we're combining two behaviors here - 1) selection doesn't follow focus so people can read items without triggering a change.
18:35:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: there's a common expectation though that pressing an arrow or letter will jump to that item, and tabbing away/on.blur leaves it selected
18:36:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
bryan: to me that's confusing
18:36:56 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: if we made selection follow focus, there's a thought that the display should change if that's the case
18:37:08 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: also the possibility of esc to cancel
18:39:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i guess we could have selection follow focus and no tupdate input?
18:39:28 [MarkMcCarthy]
siri: in that case, wouldn't it act more like a radio button then? if there's no way to get back to default
18:39:59 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: the only way you can select an empty value in is to put an empty value in the list
18:40:04 [siri]
https://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/examples/combobox/combobox-select-only.html
18:41:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
bryan: if we're going to have selection follow focus, that can cause trouble for mobile users
18:42:05 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: so the root question is, do we need the 'choose a fruit' option in the list?
18:42:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i think it makes it more complicated if it's NOT there
18:42:46 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: i think it'd be possible to remove it from the list, and just make a 'none' options
18:42:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/options/option
18:43:08 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: the convention having the placeholder text in the list is a byproduct of no placeholder in a native select
18:43:12 [MarkMcCarthy]
+1
18:43:39 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: if you have 'choose a fruit' as placeholder, then at that point is 'none' selected?
18:43:43 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: yeah
18:43:53 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: so that doesn't move us anywhere then i guess
18:44:15 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: if you as an author want to give people an ability to move to null as an option, it's gotta be there. and 'none' makes more sense
18:44:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: if 'none' is selected, does the placeholder -only- show up on page load and no user interaction?
18:46:43 [siri]
can you give correct link?
18:46:48 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: we could do whatever we'd want with that. we could also add it as a new option
18:47:48 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: so, are we proposing that, with this hypothetical one, that nothing is slected at all in the beginning - not choose a fruit, not none, nothing.
18:48:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: this is difficult because these considerations would be dictated by real world constraints
18:49:20 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: the reason up arrow goes to the first item in the list is because the first item is selected by default. if nothing were selected, it could move to the last item
18:49:22 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: correct
18:49:28 [siri]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/example-index/combobox/combobox-select-only.html - hope this right one :)
18:50:29 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: until we have an attribute like aria-value, it feels like there has to be something selected by default
18:51:31 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: the idea of putting something in that's "not a real value" shouldn't matter much, as long as the actual value makes sense
18:52:19 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: exposing 'choose a fruit' as the programmatic value doesn't mean it has to be in the list
18:52:51 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: if it's not in the list at all, and if nothing is selected, if they press escape and tab away, it'd retain its initial state, then?
18:53:25 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: or, would there be no way to return it to its intial state?
18:53:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: it seems scenario dependent
18:53:49 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: in general, the idea of not being unable to return a form field to its virgin state isn't uncommon
18:53:58 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: that's true
18:54:40 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i guess that's the crux of this discussion, and the answer is no, and a consequence of that is 'choose a fruit' isn't in the ilst, and the outcome of THAT is nothing is selected by default
18:54:58 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: and THAT means pressing the up arrow should select the last item rather than the first
18:55:21 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: the up arrow going to the last item IS different than an HTML select, but I think that's fine
18:55:36 [MarkMcCarthy]
MarkMcCarthy: i think that's fine too
18:56:08 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: to address the 'what is more' part --
18:56:23 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: oh that's a bug. it should go to the last selected item when it's reopened
18:56:43 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: that's a great catch
18:57:30 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/it should go to the last selected item when it's reopened/it should go to the currently selected item, which may be different from the last selected item
18:58:11 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: in summary, if an item is selected, and you open the combobox, focus goes to the selected. if nothing is selected, up/alt-up/down/alt-down goes to the first/last item
18:58:19 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: might need a slight documentation change
19:00:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: as a note, the linked example in this issue is from the editor's draft, not current
19:00:11 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: so it does need doc updating
19:00:26 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Goodbye!
19:00:36 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: what a meeting today!
19:01:07 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i appreciate your willingness, deeply sarah_h!
19:01:18 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: this will be good to do against the move-examples branch too
19:01:20 [MarkMcCarthy]
sarah_h: got it
19:01:35 [MarkMcCarthy]
zakim, who is here?
19:01:35 [Zakim]
Present: Matt_King, sarah_h, Rich_Noah, MarkMcCarthy
19:01:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see siri, MarkMcCarthy, Rich_Noah, sarah_h, RRSAgent, Zakim, Matt_King, MichaelC, zcorpan, github-bot, Mike5Matrix, Github, ZoeBijl, trackbot
19:01:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
present+ siri BryanGaraventa
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RRSAgent, make minutes
19:01:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/16-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy
19:02:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/last item/last item if nothing else is selected
19:02:35 [MarkMcCarthy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:02:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/16-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy
22:37:12 [Zakim]
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