16:59:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:59:53 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/07/28-aria-irc
16:59:55 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:59:56 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), spectranaut
16:59:58 <spectranaut> meeting: ARIA WG
17:00:01 <spectranaut> chair: ValerieYoung
17:00:06 <spectranaut> agendabot, find agenda
17:00:06 <agendabot> spectranaut, OK. This may take a minute...
17:00:06 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20220728T130000
17:00:06 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:00:06 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3PZicXN
17:00:07 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3OD5iOh
17:00:09 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:00:12 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Review/revise mappings for input type=file https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/421
17:00:15 <agendabot> agenda+  -> "Whitespace characters" underspecified - 1.2 blocking https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128
17:00:18 <agendabot> agenda+  -> indicate what to do with multiple headings in hgroup https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/398
17:00:21 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Prohibit presentation / none on where it causes conflict resolution https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1494
17:00:24 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Columnheader roles do not work with the abbr attribute https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/816
17:00:27 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 triage https://github.com/w3c/aria/projects/18
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17:02:24 <chlane> present+
17:02:45 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
17:02:50 <harris> present+
17:03:04 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:03:04 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3PZicXN -- taken up [from agendabot]
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17:03:22 <scotto> present+
17:03:47 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
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17:05:55 <chlane> jamesn: respec might be doing that in #1773
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17:06:21 <chlane> jamesn: file issue if needed
17:06:31 <jamesn> jamesn: notes that there may be respec dependencies here
17:06:56 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:07:02 <StefanS> present+
17:07:05 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1772
17:07:24 <jamesn> spectranaut: has a PR
17:07:38 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/164
17:07:42 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:08:05 <jamesn> scotto: is there value in columnheader and rowheader becoming part of the accname calculcation
17:08:30 <jamesn> scotto: questions whether the filer groked whether the they were hearing the column/row header info
17:08:48 <jamesn> scotto: if we were to add that content to the cells then we'd have redundant announcement
17:09:11 <jamesn> Matt_King: we would also super complicate the name calculation for the cells themselves
17:09:46 <jamesn> scotto: I don't think there is anything to do. I could see value as a fallback but I think there may be a good reason that this was never done before
17:09:59 <jamesn> Matt_King: should put a reason why its a wontfix
17:10:07 <Matt_King> present+
17:10:08 <jamesn> scotto: not one of my specs
17:10:23 <jamesn> spectranaut: Bryan or Melanie on the call?
17:11:23 <jamesn> spectranaut: feeling from Matt_King and scotto is close as a wontfix
17:11:48 <jamesn> Matt_King: reason is that it would break other things and keeping it from breaking other things would create unmaintainable complex logic
17:12:00 <jamesn> scotto: agree - would become very convaluted
17:12:10 <jamesn> Bryan: will comment
17:12:16 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:12:16 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3OD5iOh -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:12:36 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1774
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17:14:43 <jamesn> spectranaut: I will look at this
17:14:46 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:14:46 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:15:01 <frank_elavsky> present+
17:15:20 <jamesn> agenda?
17:16:58 <jamesn> jamesn: possibly popups
17:17:09 <jamesn> scotto: openui and popup attribute
17:17:12 <aaronlev> I can't do the popup deep dive August 18 or 25
17:17:46 <scotto> https://open-ui.org/components/popup.research.explainer
17:19:17 <jamesn> jamesn: Aug 11 for popup?
17:19:30 <jamesn> scotto: that works
17:19:37 <jamesn> jamesn: I will schedule
17:20:25 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:20:25 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Review/revise mappings for input type=file https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/421 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:20:43 <jamesn> topic: Review/revise mappings for input type=file
17:20:57 <jamesn> github: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/421
17:21:19 <jamesn> scotto: The mappings in HTML-AAM do not reflect the way the file input is rendered in all browsers today
17:21:44 <jamesn> ... the mappings were good for IE and legacy edge but don't really work today
17:22:06 <jamesn> ... as browsers not alligned how would we allude to this in HTML-AAM?
17:22:37 <jamesn> ... should I call out the fact that browsers do different things and try to call out what they do?
17:22:54 <jamesn> ... inputs where browsers do there own thing are a bit interesting
17:23:41 <jamesn> ... or do  🤷‍♂️
17:24:10 <jamesn> Matt_King: are you talking about after button pressed or in the webpage itself
17:24:31 <jamesn> scotto: input file is a labelable control but you are not changing the accname of the choose file button
17:24:53 <jamesn> scotto: on webkit the label and name of the button get concatenated into a text string
17:25:13 <jamesn> scotto: chromium sets something with the content with aria-hidden = true which is a bug
17:25:29 <jamesn> scotto: the various differences here - can either document those
17:25:37 <jamesn> scotto: or open up bugs
17:25:46 <jamesn> Matt_King: more complex than just rendereing the button
17:25:56 <jamesn> Matt_King: how much control does the author have
17:26:13 <jamesn> Matt_King: after uploaded a file the browser is in control of how that is rendered too
17:26:19 <jamesn> scotto: yes - there is a lot to this
17:26:28 <jamesn> scotto: html-aam is wrong
17:27:50 <jamesn> Matt_King: greenfielding here - would be awesome if you couls say it maps to an openui file attachment widget. real life problems. the way it is shown makes it hard to make these consisntent
17:28:00 <jamesn> Matt_King: not an HTML-AAm problem
17:28:04 <jamesn> q+
17:28:19 <jamesn> Matt_King: could say it maps to this kind of widget
17:28:46 <jamesn> scotto: the only issue is that the previous element would still exist
17:29:01 <jamesn> scotto: would help with newer stuff and not help with the legacy issue
17:29:08 <jamesn> scotto: also have another issue
17:29:15 <jamesn> scotto: with naming
17:29:20 <spectranaut> ack jamesn
17:29:24 <jamesn> q-
17:31:34 <jamesn> jamesn: everyone wraps these and hides them
17:31:50 <jamesn> jamesn: don't think browsers will change
17:32:11 <jamesn> spectranaut: maybe we should just say there is no consistent implemention
17:34:20 <jamesn> topic: Whitespace characters
17:34:24 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:34:24 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> "Whitespace characters" underspecified - 1.2 blocking https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:34:39 <jamesn> github: https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128
17:35:08 <jamesn> spectranaut: we thought was 1.2 blocking but decided it wasn't but we decided again that it may be.
17:35:16 <jamesn> spectranaut: we need someone to work on this
17:35:39 <jamesn> spectranaut: need to determine that the implementations all respect the same whitespace implementtion
17:36:30 <jamesn> jamesn: would like to see browser implementors looking at their code to determine what they are actually doing
17:37:59 <jamesn> jamesn: i18n issue
17:38:22 <jamesn> jamesn: aaronlev to look at what lib they are using for isWhitespace
17:41:02 <jamesn> aaronlev: need to know why this matters to users or authors
17:41:18 <jamesn> jamesn: will look for common defn for whitespace
17:42:38 <spectranaut> aaronlev: it seems like possible we should just update the spec to say if empty, not if empty or only whitespace characters?
17:43:00 <spectranaut> jamesn: I think this comes from the ARIA spec, and the problem needs to be fixed there too
17:43:22 <spectranaut> aaronlev: I think we should change everything to empty string, if it is empty string dont map anything else map
17:43:42 <spectranaut> jamesn: I think this was necessary, because they didn't want role description overrulled to blank
17:44:03 <spectranaut> StefanS: I think the spec only speaks of white space and never defines what white space is?
17:44:10 <spectranaut> jamesn: yes
17:44:27 <spectranaut> jamesn: aria 1.2 hasn't been reviewed, so we have to fix this in 1.2 regardless
17:44:54 <spectranaut> StefanS: we have candidates for definitions
17:45:07 <spectranaut> jamesn: but we need the implementation to all agree otherwise we can't publish until they do
17:46:00 <jamesn> topic: multiple headings in hgroup
17:46:08 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:46:09 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> indicate what to do with multiple headings in hgroup https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/398 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:46:19 <jamesn> github: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/398
17:46:35 <jamesn> scotto: defered this until outline changes were resolved
17:47:12 <jamesn> scotto: the proposal is for extra headings within an hgroup outside of the highest level get mapped to a paragraph
17:47:40 <jamesn> scotto: or that we don't do anything and let invalid code be invalid code and validators would be the ones to inform authors of this
17:48:00 <jamesn> scotto: the other ask is whether we would be interested in creating a heading group role
17:48:24 <jamesn> scotto: to allow AT the option of letting users know that this stuff is all related to the heading
17:48:47 <jamesn> scotto: steve's thought otherwise is that there isn't any real boundary
17:48:55 <jamesn> scotto: these are the proposals
17:49:03 <jamesn> Matt_King: is the name heading group?
17:49:08 <jamesn> scotto: hgroup
17:49:42 <jamesn> scotto: original purpose was to contribute to the never implemented outline algorithm and authors could group headings together and that never happened
17:50:06 <jamesn> scotto: now the content model allows a single heading and other paragraphs to provide additional info
17:50:19 <jamesn> scotto: there are implementations which group a bunch of headings
17:50:51 <jamesn> scotto: we could do something about that or not do anything and have validators flag them as being in error and have authors fix them
17:51:16 <jamesn> Matt_King: hgroup could have h1 h2 ... h6 within them
17:51:40 <jamesn> Matt_King: only the h1 is supposed to be a heading and the others wouldn't be heading content?
17:51:52 <jamesn> scotto: yes but browsers never implemented it
17:52:18 <jamesn> scotto: purpose was to allow you to use these headings essentially for styling things
17:52:30 <jamesn> Matt_King: if people are doing for styling reasons
17:52:44 <jamesn> Matt_King: could be H1 followed by 2 H4s
17:53:03 <jamesn> Matt_King: the right thing from AT is P elements
17:53:13 <jamesn> Matt_King: no point in showing the boundaries
17:53:23 <jamesn> Matt_King: groups almost never help
17:54:05 <jamesn> scotto: do we want to specify that errant headings be Paragraphs
17:54:18 <jamesn> scotto: might be easier to have validators call this out
17:54:24 <jamesn> Matt_King: sounds more reasonable to me
17:54:47 <jamesn> jamesn: make validators shout loudly
17:54:59 <jamesn> chlane: is that a case for deprecation?
17:55:08 <jamesn> scotto: no - not now
17:55:34 <jamesn> topic: column header roles
17:55:40 <jamesn> agenda?
17:57:17 <jamesn> thanks to those who have done the triage
17:57:29 <jamesn> those who haven't please get to it
17:57:40 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:57:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/28-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:58:01 <jamesn> present+
17:58:04 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:58:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/28-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:58:09 <chlane> wq!
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18:12:27 <chlane> q!