13:04:47 RRSAgent has joined #coga 13:04:47 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/07/21-coga-irc 13:04:49 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:04:52 Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 13:04:52 Date: 21 July 2022 13:05:45 agenda https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UAFHZuxmyhYAjZZyWxp_rvhIHuXmeWQosgVZD5LcxmM/edit#heading=h.pnntvdf9fs4e 13:05:59 agenda: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UAFHZuxmyhYAjZZyWxp_rvhIHuXmeWQosgVZD5LcxmM/edit#heading=h.pnntvdf9fs4e 13:06:08 agenda+ https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UAFHZuxmyhYAjZZyWxp_rvhIHuXmeWQosgVZD5LcxmM/edit#heading=h.pnntvdf9fs4e 13:06:16 agenda? 13:06:37 clear agenda 13:06:47 Agenda+ Check in with all sub-groups and COGA Action Items Does anyone need pending agenda items? 13:06:58 clear agenda 13:07:25 Agenda+ Check in with all sub-groups and COGA Action Items https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit 13:07:36 Agenda+ Draft from the who https://www.research.net/r/WHOReportHealthEquityPWDs Deadline August 5 13:07:47 Agenda+ Reminder send the survey for UXR 13:07:57 Agenda+ Review resolutions from ftf. See https://www.w3.org/2022/07/12-coga-minutes.html 13:08:14 Agenda+ Who will be at tpac 13:08:24 Agenda+ Finish functional needs review https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ndRziXRfnyAgDaL8ctByQagDdM36H8QxV44lO3u8zgc/edit# 13:18:58 regrets 13:19:00 Survey link (public): https://bit.ly/content-usable-v2 Link to survey results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1s2mqTweqrNmB4gSSfC3I-rx31Gl8OJPAUW1v9_gVsSc/edit#responses 13:30:40 regrets+ arron, shawn (partial) 13:34:35 sign up to scribe: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list 13:56:10 Jennie has joined #coga 13:59:17 Scribe: Jennie 13:59:24 present+ 13:59:27 ShawnT has joined #coga 13:59:51 zakim, next item 13:59:51 agendum 1 -- Check in with all sub-groups and COGA Action Items https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit -- taken up [from Lisa] 14:00:25 Rain has joined #coga 14:00:33 present+ 14:00:46 rashmi has joined #coga 14:00:54 actions : https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit# 14:00:55 Lisa: We are keeping the updates short today 14:01:09 Shawn: Update on the test group 14:01:15 ...Jennie and I met to organize, and get ready 14:01:25 ...We are organizing the Google Drive folder 14:01:31 Becca_Monteleone has joined #coga 14:01:31 ...Our next step is to review the documents 14:01:38 present+ 14:01:40 ...Our future meetings 14:01:40 present+ 14:02:13 Le has joined #coga 14:02:19 Lisa: I saw your requests. The only one doesn't work for the end of August 14:02:20 present+ 14:02:23 Shawn: OK, those should work 14:02:43 EA has joined #coga 14:02:44 ...We have tried to create some asynchronous work tasks 14:02:53 ...Jennie and I will meet, review to be sure work is getting done 14:03:02 ...Then we will meet with the group, task out the work 14:03:08 Lisa: Thank you, that sounds good 14:03:22 actions : https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit# 14:03:32 present+ 14:03:35 ...We are starting with actions, trying to keep it brief 14:04:01 ...One suggestion for subgroups: we are each meeting about once per month 14:04:10 present+ 14:04:16 ...It would be great to meet sometimes as a follow on meeting mid month when your group can do it 14:04:23 ...Not in the slot on Thursday 14:04:28 ...This will help tasks move faster 14:04:36 ...Mental health group? 14:04:45 ...I don't think there are important updates 14:05:02 ...We are finishing off the analysis - literary review. We want to finish by the beginning of October 14:05:09 ...We need everyone to have their papers done by then. 14:05:22 ...We had a great session at the conference 14:05:33 ...Structural review for Content Usable has a meeting after this 14:05:43 krisanne has joined #coga 14:05:52 Survey: https://forms.gle/J4gJ2timJwwxS4Jc7 14:05:58 Rain: We are still trying to get the outreach on the form to go beyond 14:06:01 ...I created an outreach spreadsheet 14:06:03 Outreach spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xXjHPCfWm00iAJqmjdwFq_RQ80vKwwxFAoiEGI3NOlM/edit#gid=0 14:06:10 Lisa: We have an agenda item on that topic 14:06:27 Rain: We have analytics from Roy we can start looking at 14:06:34 Lisa: well done on getting out the survey 14:06:37 ...Clear Language 14:07:05 Julie: I am getting ready to send out a document to the team with a thought starter for test type for each of the patterns in Silver 14:07:10 ...This was Rachael's recommendation 14:07:19 ...For those that have a clear yes or no answer 14:07:28 ...Then for patterns that are harder to test using this method 14:07:38 ...What would be better suited for a procedural test or a protocol 14:07:49 ...What did the organization that created the page - what did they do? 14:07:55 ...What is their policy? Their process? 14:08:01 ...Checking this as opposed to the output 14:08:13 ...I will send out to the team some ideas to begin to think about 14:08:20 ...When is the next Clear Language meeting? 14:08:35 ...I cannot attend the meeting next week 14:09:03 Lisa: Can the Test Plan meet along with the Clear Language group? 14:09:31 Julie: This may be a good thing for the test plan group to debate 14:09:38 ...This will help with the Clear Language for Silver 14:09:44 +1 to both meeting 14:09:56 present+ 14:09:57 Lisa: I am asking if they want to move their meeting to August 4th? 14:09:59 q? 14:10:18 julierawe has joined #coga 14:10:21 present+ 14:10:27 ack Jennie 14:11:39 Lisa: OK it will be mental health next week, then test plans the week of August 4th 14:11:44 ...Thank you Shawn for your flexibility 14:12:08 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wu0WYcvCpp-zIz2NzPk2AuTJOrzgh3T4sKQgzCa10ps/edit# 14:12:17 ...We have a document online that is a summary for what we think the research plan - outline 14:12:27 ...1st is background 14:12:34 ...Creating a survey, providing the background 14:12:53 ...Finding synergies is what I would like to report back to the larger group 14:13:19 ...Ph.D. students can use this as part of their research 14:13:26 ...Le had good ideas on working with people 14:13:47 ...I need to take to the W3C coordination group how we do it, what's the right way to go about working with people doing their Ph.D's 14:13:56 Q? 14:14:05 ...If people have other suggestions, that would be fantastic 14:14:19 ...If you have any ideas on groups - we have great suggestions already. 14:14:44 ...Recruiting people like that would be fantastic 14:14:49 ...Have a look at the outline 14:14:57 ...The foundational research will be really important 14:15:08 ...Then the gap analysis will let us know what research is necessary 14:15:19 Q? 14:15:20 ...The note can be after the second version of Content Usable 14:15:31 ...Images subgroup 14:15:57 Jennie: no updates 14:16:12 Lisa: I think we should do subgroup updates every one week, and member updates on the opposite week 14:16:28 +1 14:16:29 ...And if we are meeting every 2 weeks, does that sound ok to the subgroup leaders 14:16:33 +1 14:16:37 +1 14:16:47 Lisa: OK, I am seeing agreement on that 14:16:58 ...Rain is working on the APA issue 264 14:17:03 ...Next week we will have something 14:17:12 ...There is a draft from the WHO that I sent to the list 14:17:21 https://www.who.int/news-room/events/detail/2022/07/18/default-calendar/call-for-feedback-on-the-draft-who-global-report-on-health-equity-for-persons-with-disabilities 14:17:38 Lisa: We are not making a response as COGA 14:17:55 ...If you want to make individual responses, we can discuss it next week 14:18:05 ...Does that work? 14:18:24 ...EO 14:18:41 Julie: I updated the COGA document, noting I had sent the side by side comparison to EO on July 12 14:18:53 ...Kevin was on vacation, so we are waiting for a response 14:19:06 ...I am still drafting our responses to EO's revised personal stories 14:19:19 ...I will send that to the COGA team to review, before sending it to EO 14:19:22 Lisa: Thank you 14:19:29 ...Do you want to update the action there? 14:19:49 ...I think we will stop the actions there 14:20:07 ...There are actions from the face to face - a lot is approaching people who might be doing literary reviews 14:20:12 ...That we may want to reference, or use 14:20:49 ...Anyone doing literary reviews for the mental health research group - reach out to Rain and myself if you have any questions 14:21:01 zakim, next item 14:21:01 agendum 2 -- Draft from the who https://www.research.net/r/WHOReportHealthEquityPWDs Deadline August 5 -- taken up [from Lisa] 14:21:12 close item 2 14:21:17 zakim, next item 14:21:17 agendum 3 -- Reminder send the survey for UXR -- taken up [from Lisa] 14:21:29 Lisa: This survey needs to be sent out 14:21:41 Rain: We need people to send this out - you, everyone on this call 14:21:46 ...Also communities that you work with 14:22:00 Survey outreach tracker: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xXjHPCfWm00iAJqmjdwFq_RQ80vKwwxFAoiEGI3NOlM/edit#gid=0 14:22:01 ...When we have the community group next week I will be asking them to share with their communities as well 14:22:22 ...This spreadsheet (linked above) - when you send out to someone please share when you sent it, to whom you sent it 14:22:28 ...There is a column for resending 14:22:49 ...The deadline for responding to the survey is set to September 15th because a lot of people are away from their computer because of summer 14:22:57 ...We should resend again in early September 14:23:12 ...This will also helps us keep track of the communities we are sending to, and who has access to those communities 14:23:19 q+ 14:23:19 ...This will help for future surveys 14:23:26 ...We also have a blurb at the top in row 1 14:23:33 ...You can copy and edit this to share the survey 14:23:43 ...The direct link to the survey has a bit.ly short link 14:23:44 Direct link to the survey: https://bit.ly/content-usable-v2 14:24:12 Rain: I was advised by some that saw the bit.ly that some won't click on this link because they won't know where it is going 14:24:17 could we put direct link in there a link to the survey in the outreach record ? 14:24:22 ...you can say that this links to a Google form 14:24:44 oh ok thanks! 14:24:46 ...John K is asking if we can put a direct link , and yes, I will add it there as well 14:25:09 ...We want to try to end the survey on September 15 14:25:18 ...A number of people have shared on LinkedIn 14:25:32 ...That only goes to the country you are in, or the people that follow you 14:25:45 ...This is why we mostly have people responding from the US and Canada 14:25:57 ...For those on the call not in the US and Canada - please post on your networks as well 14:26:11 ...I would like to see over 200 responses - we have 46 now 14:26:33 Lisa: This is a great survey. If only Rain sends it out, there is a large number of Google responders 14:26:34 q+ 14:26:52 Huge +1 to Lisa's comment. The results are very biased right now! 14:26:54 ack next 14:27:00 Rashmi: When I posted it on LinkedIn I got great feedback 14:27:23 ...They want to provide feedback about the structure about the document. They want to connect personally 14:27:29 ...Who should I connect them with? 14:27:49 Rain: It would be great if you could make that connection between me and those individuals, and share what they are sharing 14:27:52 Rashmi: Great 14:28:16 Rain: As a group - there are some things that we had to do in the form that are not cognitively accessible because of how research is done in terms of disclosure 14:28:22 ...Great feedback has been received 14:28:36 ...If any of the feedback is around this, I can share with the group, and this is good feedback to get 14:28:55 Lisa: I am taking a note 14:29:09 ack next 14:29:12 ...When we make feedback, we need a way to provide feedback that doesn't require writing at all 14:29:29 well done jenny 14:29:42 Way to go, Jenny! 14:29:54 fantastic 14:29:54 Thank you, Jennie! Please add to the outreach spreadsheet when you have the chance: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xXjHPCfWm00iAJqmjdwFq_RQ80vKwwxFAoiEGI3NOlM/edit#gid=0 14:29:56 I mean Jennie :) 14:29:56 +1 to julierawe 14:30:11 For future surveys - I have some experience making both informed consent documents and data collection cogntiively accessible - at least on the academic research side. 14:30:28 zakim, next item 14:30:28 agendum 4 -- Review resolutions from ftf. See https://www.w3.org/2022/07/12-coga-minutes.html -- taken up [from Lisa] 14:30:37 Jennie: I shared the information about the survey in the Office of Accessibility newsletter - link is posted to the list. This went to 2481 subscribers 14:30:52 Lisa: I want to get to the functional review 14:31:01 ...Let's get these done in 1 or 2 minutes 14:31:09 ...The Face to Face was a great meeting 14:31:22 ...The other thing we had - if people want to click on the minutes 14:31:28 ...We had one resolution 14:31:42 ...In Content Usable - this may be a structural issue 14:31:52 ...People are confusing the name of the pattern with the what to do section 14:32:05 ...The "what to do" was done to help direct people to what to do 14:32:12 ...The names were chosen with lots of considerations 14:32:19 ...Including do they fit in the nav bar at the side 14:32:26 ...With that result, they are inaccurate 14:32:38 ...We need to think about - is that ok? Do we need to rename the patterns? 14:32:58 ...When we are doing things like using them in methods, in Silver 14:33:05 ...Please don't use the name, use the pattern 14:33:09 ...In Clear Language 14:33:27 ...Avoid double negatives - the actual pattern is not to use double negatives to express a positive 14:33:31 ...This helps with internationalization 14:33:38 ...We haven't found a language for which this isn't true 14:34:01 ...The resolution was 14:34:06 ...When writing a pattern method 14:34:22 ...And changing objective names, or the pattern to something else - that has to come back to the group, the bigger group 14:34:38 ...They need a chance to say "hang on, I remember why we didn't do that in the 1st place" 14:34:51 ...And they may say "we didn't do that because"... 14:34:54 q+ 14:34:56 ...That's a resolution 14:35:03 ...If people aren't happy with that, we can revisit it. 14:35:07 ...It seems sensible to me 14:35:27 ...As a consensus group, we need to bounce these things off of the group 14:35:30 q? 14:35:36 zakim, next item 14:35:36 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Lisa 14:35:41 q+ 14:35:45 ack next 14:36:00 Lisa: John are you on mute? 14:36:09 ...John we will come back to you 14:36:13 ack next 14:36:37 Julie: I totally get the point about needing to be more specific about double negatives to express a positive 14:36:50 ...In the current Content Usable, the name is Avoid... 14:37:01 Lisa: Yes, the names got edited. 14:37:10 ...They were made to fit in the left hand navigation bar 14:37:13 ...They are not accurate 14:37:21 ...In the What to do section, they are accurate 14:37:25 ...Don't rely on the pattern name 14:37:30 ...Maybe we need to review these 14:37:52 ...In the described by section - the description got ignored by the label 14:37:54 q+ 14:37:59 John K: That was my issue too 14:38:21 ...and I just don't recall on this where there are, from the double negative perspective, it is standard to use them in one language 14:38:31 ...I find it difficult that we are trying to use this 14:38:39 ...There are other languages as well where this is very standard 14:38:44 Lisa: We weren't 14:38:51 ...We had in the actual description of the pattern 14:39:00 q+ 14:39:23 ...What we had was a description, then it got edited to fit as a label 14:39:51 ...A second point I am taking away from this is that we need to go through the labels that are now the titles of the pattern 14:40:03 ...We have to make sure that they are accurate. They don't have to be detailed 14:40:16 John K: that makes sense 14:40:27 Lisa: This was a first draft, we are going to make mistakes like that 14:40:43 ...Let's make sure that you won't do the wrong thing by just reading the label 14:41:00 ack next 14:41:16 Julie: I did wonder why the pattern was not named "use a simple structure" 14:41:32 ...This solves 2 problems: to say avoid double negatives, nested clauses - this sounds like different things 14:41:38 “simple structure” works great 14:41:42 ...But the title actually does address this 14:41:50 Lisa: Sometimes these mistakes are crucial! 14:42:05 ...It is only because of confusing the title name and the pattern - you are going to suggest the wrong thing 14:42:11 ...I think we are going to have to add to our list 14:42:15 ...Checking this 14:42:17 ack next 14:42:29 Rain: I want to clarify for the group the resolution 14:42:41 ...This example from the Clear Language is why we have the resolution 14:42:57 ...The resolution is that as we are working on things like the materials with the Clear Language we are trying to put into Silver 14:43:16 ...We will have to, at times, change wording, break things up into different components from what maps to Making Content Usable 14:43:40 ...The resolution: when these types of activities occur, before we do more work on a particular element after trying to make one of those changes 14:43:53 ...That we bring those changes back to this group to verify that this group knows that change is accurate 14:44:07 ...I want to be sure we don't focus on the one single example 14:44:13 ...This is more of a process concern 14:44:24 ...This will help with the Silver work, and the update to Content Usable 14:44:31 +1 to Rain 14:44:42 ...We will be updating language and we may risk these types of issues 14:44:52 Lisa: Thank you 14:45:14 ...We have to look at these failures as fantastic - we can learn from them, make our next version clearer, and improve our process 14:45:27 ...This will happen more and more if we don't address it 14:45:36 ack next 14:45:36 ...Hopefully we will find issues with the process early 14:45:45 zakim, next item 14:45:45 agendum 5 -- Who will be at tpac -- taken up [from Lisa] 14:45:58 Lisa: Who will be at TPAC? 14:46:07 Jennie: I am attending virtually - registration complete 14:46:08 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2022 14:46:13 ME!!!!! 14:46:24 I'll be there! super excited! 14:46:39 0 at the moment, working on figuring out travel with my manager 14:46:44 I'm still up in the air about going in person. 14:46:48 Lisa: We may need someone to be the point person 14:46:55 ...to work out logistics 14:47:22 Can we keep this information in the action items document? 14:47:31 ...If I don't get there, we may ask Shawn to be the point person 14:47:39 zakim, next item 14:47:39 agendum 6 -- Finish functional needs review https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ndRziXRfnyAgDaL8ctByQagDdM36H8QxV44lO3u8zgc/edit# -- taken up [from Lisa] 14:47:42 ...Yes, Shawn, copy it into the action items 14:48:31 Lisa: I think we are up to Learning, and we got agreements on learning 14:48:45 ...Memory: short term or working memory is in the comments 14:48:53 ...These are normally different things 14:48:58 added a section 14:49:06 ... in the document 14:49:06 ...We felt that they missed out other things 14:49:13 ...Are we correct with these comments? 14:49:19 any objections? 14:49:33 Lisa: Executive Function 14:49:45 ...We thought that maybe some of these go into mental health 14:50:05 ...Rain suggested self regulation and I think that is a better term 14:50:05 q? 14:50:07 I would have pacing in there 14:50:07 +1 for regulation 14:50:08 ...Any comments? 14:50:15 any objections? 14:50:44 John K: Pacing doesn't seem to be in the executive part 14:50:50 Lisa: We have it in the new section 14:51:12 John K: processing speed is one thing, but self pacing, which is executive function 14:51:35 ...purposefully slowing things down, taking breaks, slowing the speed of things down 14:51:46 ...This is an executive function skill 14:51:56 Lisa: I just added it 14:52:04 ...Is everyone comfortable with that? 14:52:06 any objections? 14:52:20 Lisa: I will make a clean version at the side 14:52:30 ...Mental health: we have emotional regulation 14:52:34 ...triggers, mode 14:52:38 ...mental health 14:52:47 ...This needs more work 14:52:53 ...I think we want to delay that 14:53:04 ...Should we delay this? 14:53:17 John K: I have a difficult time with this one 14:53:26 ...how to approach it in the construct 14:53:43 Lisa: This one we can maybe pass on to the mental health subgroup 14:53:52 ...Cognitive and sensory we have asked for this to be removed 14:53:57 q+ 14:54:19 Lisa: Visual memory is usually part of memory. Rain is suggesting that some goes into language 14:54:34 ack next 14:55:27 Jennie: where will we post something like central auditory processing disorder 14:55:42 Lisa: I think this is less about where it is in the brain, and more about the functional needs 14:58:55 (discussion happened about what is missing by removing the longer list item) 14:59:07 (Lisa added some examples into the document) 14:59:11 Jennie +1 14:59:23 Language (from different sources, such as auditory discriminatory, visual memory etc) 15:00:07 any objections? 15:00:26 Lisa: We are going to ask cognitive and sensory intersections to be removed 15:00:32 ...Any objections? 15:00:45 ...Next is new proposed buckets 15:00:56 ...Any objectives? 15:01:12 John K: What does fluency mean in this case? 15:01:25 q+ 15:02:16 Jennie: I believe it may have been EA that asked for that to be there 15:02:18 present+ 15:02:19 ack Jennie 15:02:37 Lisa: This ends the COGA main meeting 15:02:42 ...Subgroup meeting happens next 15:02:43 +1 to combining, sounds good! 15:03:11 rrsagent, make minutes 15:03:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/21-coga-minutes.html Jennie 15:04:35 For Le: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ndRziXRfnyAgDaL8ctByQagDdM36H8QxV44lO3u8zgc/edit#heading=h.1sw3jym07njn 15:08:39 topic: Structure Review For Content Useable and the Research Plan and Strategy 15:08:50 rrsagent, make minutes 15:08:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/21-coga-minutes.html Lisa 15:09:06 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wu0WYcvCpp-zIz2NzPk2AuTJOrzgh3T4sKQgzCa10ps/edit#heading=h.bls0z8ekj5k3 15:09:20 reserch plan 15:10:12 scribe+ lisa, rain 15:10:50 agenda+ making a survey? 15:11:12 agenda+ colecting ideas such redoing pattern names 15:11:47 agenda+ share roys feed back 15:12:01 agenda+ timelines and next step 15:13:37 take up item 9 15:13:42 Google Drive Link for analytics: https://drive.google.com/corp/drive/folders/1weE_PbvHGJUm4pdzaKp2TBvLAF66A-SH 15:14:53 we can only get 3 month data 15:15:46 rain: and data needs to be parsed. 15:16:19 any volenteres 15:16:32 rain: is there someone in this group who has talent with data of this type and pulling useful information out of it 15:18:23 also the time spent is useful 15:18:44 where they go to and come from is useful 15:19:56 people over 5 minuets, over ten muinits 15:20:55 shawn might be able to do some 15:21:17 q+ 15:21:40 rain: we need to decide first what we want 15:21:49 ack Lisa 15:21:58 q+ 15:22:11 Lisa: make a Google Doc to collect our questions that we want to understand 15:22:21 ... Put the information we want into a spreadsheet 15:22:54 write some macros 15:23:29 john is concerned about removing data. bounces are important 15:23:46 +1 to convert them to excel 15:24:37 q+ Add to questions, how many more the five miunets 15:24:44 ack next 15:25:48 john to look at files 15:26:26 Spreadsheet to include the data and review: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YitWbImy9QSPpmTAzOo_Jcg6jOg9Xe--kj3uHe5rHD0/edit#gid=0 15:27:38 we want to do this on a few pages 15:28:24 rain: our goal were pages are coming from, and going next 15:28:36 john: what is our goals? 15:28:51 rain: how they are using it 15:29:13 jouhn: you cant do that without cookies 15:29:36 rain: we have some within the site 15:29:43 q+ 15:30:25 ack next 15:30:26 Add, you wanted to questions, how many more the five miunets 15:31:15 ack next 15:31:39