16:57:44 RRSAgent has joined #aria 16:57:44 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/07/14-aria-irc 16:57:46 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:57:47 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), spectranaut 16:57:49 meeting: ARIA WG 16:57:54 chair: ValerieYoung 16:58:03 agendabot, find agenda 16:58:03 spectranaut, OK. This may take a minute... 16:58:04 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20220714T130000 16:58:04 clear agenda 16:58:04 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3AJRvSz 16:58:04 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3P7I3gj 16:58:06 agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates 16:58:09 agenda+ Announcement: TPAC registration is open 16:58:11 agenda+ -> Reminder: 1.3 prioritization action items https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2022Jun/0022.html 16:58:15 agenda+ -> Review/revise mappings for input type=file https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/421 16:58:18 agenda+ -> "Whitespace characters" underspecified https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128 16:58:20 agenda+ -> Columnheader roles do not work with the abbr attribute https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/816 16:59:51 pkra has joined #aria 17:00:56 dakahn has joined #aria 17:01:05 present+ 17:02:33 CurtBellew has joined #aria 17:02:35 scotto has joined #aria 17:04:11 arigilmore has joined #aria 17:04:23 present+ 17:05:53 scribe: dakahn 17:06:06 spectranaut: val explains what da needs to do 17:06:37 zakim/ next item 17:06:44 zakim, next item 17:06:44 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3AJRvSz -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:07:02 present+ 17:07:06 present+ 17:07:10 present+ 17:07:11 present+ 17:07:16 present+ 17:07:33 spectranaut: first item is pr triage 17:07:46 cyns has joined #aria 17:08:07 spectranaut: the first item is on html-aam issue #431 17:08:16 present+ 17:09:15 scotto: this was the acc team figuring out how to do accessible automated test rules they had some innacurate ideas about what was allowed here 17:10:29 scotto: leave open for now because theres more to be done 17:11:10 spectranaut: issue #1765, consider calling out aria-hidden expectations for focusable elements--this is a clarification 17:11:14 frank_elavsky has joined #aria 17:12:02 scotto: has had conversations with multiple developers over the past few weeks. we could use some clarification since aria hidden has changed over the years. it's not always going to hide stuff and the definition doesn't say that 17:12:48 moved to 1.4 milestone 17:13:08 chlane: interested in helping. thinks we need to surface this in aria-hidden definition 17:13:27 spectranaut: moving on to core-aam #130 17:13:37 siri has joined #aria 17:13:38 ...doesn't need to be discussed, just a bug in spec 17:14:06 spectranaut: in aria #1764 further clarifications to form role 17:14:19 Can you add me to aria-hidden issue? Interest to learn the process 17:15:11 scotto: john raised issue in html spec about how form roles need accessible names, but that may not be needed or only needed when the form is a landmark. questions why someone is using a form role or why this is needed 17:15:26 present+ 17:15:32 StefanS: if there are multiple forms present this can be helpful 17:16:06 scotto: it would be good to put that in the guidance 17:16:32 StefanS: potentially not needed if there is only one instance on a page, but there could be a use case with multiple forms 17:16:48 moved to 1.4 milestone 17:17:31 CurtBellew: if you had more than one form element on a page you'd have a case for giving it an accessible name. if you had two regions on the page and you wanted them to have a unique name im assuming this would go along with this as well 17:17:58 spectranaut: next issue is #1763 on aria 17:18:13 present+ 17:18:14 jcraig: i just assigned that to myself 17:18:16 zakim, next item 17:18:16 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3P7I3gj -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:18:43 spectranaut: first one is html-aam #430 17:19:38 scotto: an issue joanie created long ago before generic existed to indicate there are many elements in html that are not mapped but might bcome mapped if accessibility is added to them. this has largely went away, but there are still instances where a developer could expose not mapped elements and expose them 17:19:55 ...would appreciate reviews, or being told to close this as unneeded 17:20:11 jcraig: you can add me as reviewer, can you clarify what you mean by 'if we dont need this anymore' 17:21:13 scotto: take the style element. its not mapped since its not supposed to be exposed, but if someone were to put one in the body of their html and render it as display block--this pr spcifiys that language. potentially helpful in a few instances or might be unnecessary 17:21:51 jcraig: i think a note is super useful--whether we need to go into detail about every possible way is not necessary 17:22:03 scotto: definitely would appreciate any feedback we have on it 17:22:26 spectranaut: next pr is #1766 on aria from jcraig 17:23:07 jcraig: adds CEReactions IDL property. asked for alex's review, but happy to have other reviewers as well 17:23:18 spectranaut: is this editorial? 17:23:40 jcraig: definitely more than editorial, but isn't anything that requires additional tests for aria because they're already tested in the rendering engine and different places 17:23:47 spectranaut: i'll take a look too 17:23:55 ...next pr is #132 also from you jcraig 17:24:31 jcraig: we have some weird menuitem in group guidance. we're going to take it out of webkit and remove the guidance 17:24:51 spectranaut: next is #429 on html-aam from scotto 17:26:01 scotto: there is a html-aam issue related and a chromium bug related. this adds language to indicate that a required element should not be immediately exposed as invalid. which is inconsistently the case. html had an issue filed against them as well. this pr adds language to indicate users should wait for an interaction before exposing required fields as invalid. 17:26:51 siri and jcraig added as reviewers 17:27:23 scotto: would make sense to put aaron on here as well since he's already on the bug 17:27:42 shirsha 17:27:44 spectranaut: last one is also on html-aam from scotto #423 17:28:33 scotto: this adds to the naming steps for button elements a missing label element. because label works on these things and that's been a long standing mission from the naming steps. nothing changing, just a light review 17:28:56 jcraig: can you tell me what that means to add a label 17:29:45 scotto: right now the naming steps list out 'first use aria-label aria-labelledby, next use aria-' but the label element also works to name these. and takes precedent as the second step. label will always win out over sub tree or title. 17:30:49 jcraig: this doesn't need to be called out expclicitely by ACC-Name 17:31:31 jcraig: you can put me on this. i dont have the abiltiy to put myself on these 17:31:40 MichaelC: try refreshing--maybe it will pick them up 17:31:45 spectranaut: were they just added 17:32:04 MichaelC: should be in the same group that i expanded the permissions for. everyone had read access and you need tree access to be on issues 17:32:17 s/tree/triage/ 17:33:10 CurtBellew and dakahn offer to review 17:33:31 CurtBellew: noticed label isn't called out like id expect so this seems like an opportunity 17:34:01 scotto: there are a number of inconsistencies with how these elements handle their naming. we're finally going down the path to get the necessary docs to write these things to reflect reality 17:34:14 ...so thats coming someday or i might quit the internet 17:34:21 everyone: don't quit! 17:34:38 jcraig: this probably needs some tests 17:34:55 CurtBellew_ has joined #aria 17:35:20 scotto: yeah i do agree. so i could use some help on where we could post those test. i know we have platform tests, but this has been a spec that hasn't really had anything going up there. happy to write the tests myself 17:35:56 siri: help me understand 17:36:25 17:36:32 scotto: you could have a button element and you could have a label element -- the button element could have an empty subtree, but the label element could have content in it 17:36:50 ...in the cases of nesting a button inside of a label theres more to do 17:36:57 ^ Is this "foo" or "foo bar" or "foobar" 17:37:11 spectranaut: the fact that we dont have tests seems like somethign we need to resolve. an action item for a later meeting 17:37:13 zakim, nest item 17:37:13 I don't understand 'nest item', dakahn 17:37:17 zakim, next item 17:37:17 agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:37:35 s/"foo bar" or "foobar"/"bar" or "bar foo" or "barfoo"/ 17:37:46 spectranaut: deep dive planning. next week we have dialogs and the week after that we have popup. any other items anyone wants to have deep dive for 17:38:34 dakahn: what kind of things can we have deep dives on 17:38:48 jcraig: anything tangentially related to what we're working on but that might run over a regular meeting 17:38:51 zakim, next item 17:38:51 agendum 4 -- Announcement: TPAC registration is open -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:39:19 spectranaut: reminder that cpac registration is open and early bird rates last till august 5th. also there is a charge for remote attendance 17:39:30 scotto: so we have to pay to go to a meeting? sign me up! 17:39:42 https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/ 17:40:01 zakim, next item 17:40:01 agendum 5 -- -> Reminder: 1.3 prioritization action items https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2022Jun/0022.html -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:41:06 spectranaut: we started to talk about how to prioritize 1.3 and as a first step we talked about putting labels on the issues assigned to us so we can prioritize what we need to keep/move. please look at all the issues assigned to you under the 1.3 milestone. jcraig did all his homework already so good job! 17:41:22 zakim, next item 17:41:22 agendum 6 -- -> Review/revise mappings for input type=file https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/421 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:41:44 spectranaut: review revize mapping for input type="file" 17:41:48 scotto: why dont we skip this one this week 17:41:57 ...lets do the white space one 17:42:03 zakim, next item 17:42:03 agendum 6 was just opened, dakahn 17:42:14 zakim, close this item 17:42:14 agendum 6 closed 17:42:15 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:42:15 7. -> "Whitespace characters" underspecified https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128 [from agendabot] 17:42:24 zakim, next item 17:42:24 agendum 7 -- -> "Whitespace characters" underspecified https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:42:53 spectranaut: so this is a 1.2 blocking issue. its something we have to get resolved. the issue is that white space is under defined as far as i can tell. 17:43:00 ...looks like theres been some discussion on this 17:44:07 pkra: just checking if we needed to do more work on this. looked at the aria tracker to see if it had come up in the past year or two. i dont have any particular feelings about it 17:44:31 jcraig: i have a feeling that we should avoid at all costs specifiying the particular unicode. if html does this already we should point to that 17:45:02 https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/common-microsyntaxes.html#space-separated-tokens 17:45:05 scotto: i believe they do. i linked to the html-aam in pr. i started working on this back in 2019 and then the world ended so i stopped. html does have something specified 17:45:13 ...in #239 17:45:43 ...i had taken a stab at doing something for this in html-aam. dont remember what i wrote, but linked to it here if there was anything useful for core aam. if we are going to define this it makes sense to not just do it in html aam 17:45:59 ...i would submit this is not the place for this. we should point to html have alread identified 17:46:18 jcraig: space separated tokens is different in this context, but id be surprised if html didn't have this defined 17:47:13 pkra: there are links to the html spec and white space definitions. there are braille specific white space attributes to consider 17:47:49 spectranaut: its not clear we can just point to the html spec or any of the others 17:47:58 jcraig: theres probably someone who knows the answer to that but not on this call 17:48:08 ...in the html working group would be my guess. one of those editors 17:48:38 spectranaut: if you think someone from html could answer a question ehre could you ask them in an issue 17:48:41 jcraig: i will 17:49:02 spectranaut: sounds like no one is enthused to champion this issue for the sake of 1.2 getting out the door 17:49:16 pkra: are we talking about core-aam or 1.2? it was filed against core aam 17:49:45 spectranaut: my understanding is its a change we'd have to do to 1.2. or is 1.2 blocking but maybe MichaelC would know 17:49:58 MichaelC: i dont know the answer off hand 17:50:06 scotto: i think its core aam 1.2 not aria 1.2 17:50:15 spectranaut: isn't core aam 1.2 blocking aria 1.2 17:50:31 MichaelC: once it transitions to CR 17:50:40 spectranaut: is this something that blocks it going to cr? 17:51:01 MichaelC: i dont think so. we can always just say we're not addressing this issue now and go to cr and see if people object. since we're going evergreen shouldn't be a big issue 17:51:14 spectranaut: maybe the next step is to get input from jcraig from html. doesn't seem urgent 17:51:38 pkra: unicode has a concept of whitespace--why is that not what people refer to when they talk about whitespace 17:51:54 spectranaut: if you want to look that up and reference it in the issue--i dont know why 17:53:16 scotto: we need this resolved--do we count white space characters and whitespace characters alone as an ACC-Name? seems like a bad idea 17:53:41 pkra: surprised this hasn't been solved. how is this something that a lot of specs haven't run into? 17:53:48 spectranaut: looks like all the specs are doing it on their own 17:54:00 jcraig: all the more reason to not duplicate that work. find the best one and point to that 17:54:14 jamesn has joined #aria 17:54:27 spectranaut: anything else to say? 17:54:31 zakim, next item 17:54:31 agendum 8 -- -> Columnheader roles do not work with the abbr attribute https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/816 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:55:03 spectranaut: its another scotto issue, sorry. we only discussed half of this last time. said we wanted to discuss aria-cellheaders 17:55:09 scotto: dont think we can get through that in 5 minutes 17:55:16 spectranaut: maybe we'll stop 5 minutes early for once 17:55:59 present+ 17:57:10 rrsagent, make minutes 17:57:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/14-aria-minutes.html spectranaut 17:57:23 rrsagent 18:05:18 bkardell_ has joined #aria 18:06:47 present+ frank_elavsky 18:06:59 rrsagent, make minutes 18:06:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/14-aria-minutes.html jcraig