IRC log of aria on 2022-07-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:57:44 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/07/14-aria-irc
16:57:46 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:57:47 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), spectranaut
16:57:49 [spectranaut]
meeting: ARIA WG
16:57:54 [spectranaut]
chair: ValerieYoung
16:58:03 [spectranaut]
agendabot, find agenda
16:58:03 [agendabot]
spectranaut, OK. This may take a minute...
16:58:04 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20220714T130000
16:58:04 [agendabot]
clear agenda
16:58:04 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3AJRvSz
16:58:04 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3P7I3gj
16:58:06 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:58:09 [agendabot]
agenda+ Announcement: TPAC registration is open
16:58:11 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Reminder: 1.3 prioritization action items https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2022Jun/0022.html
16:58:15 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Review/revise mappings for input type=file https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/421
16:58:18 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> "Whitespace characters" underspecified https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128
16:58:20 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Columnheader roles do not work with the abbr attribute https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/816
16:59:51 [pkra]
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present+
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17:04:23 [chlane]
present+
17:05:53 [spectranaut]
scribe: dakahn
17:06:06 [spectranaut]
spectranaut: val explains what da needs to do
17:06:37 [dakahn]
zakim/ next item
17:06:44 [dakahn]
zakim, next item
17:06:44 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3AJRvSz -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:07:02 [dakahn]
present+
17:07:06 [spectranaut]
present+
17:07:10 [scotto]
present+
17:07:11 [arigilmore]
present+
17:07:16 [CurtBellew]
present+
17:07:33 [dakahn]
spectranaut: first item is pr triage
17:07:46 [cyns]
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spectranaut: the first item is on html-aam issue #431
17:08:16 [cyns]
present+
17:09:15 [dakahn]
scotto: this was the acc team figuring out how to do accessible automated test rules they had some innacurate ideas about what was allowed here
17:10:29 [dakahn]
scotto: leave open for now because theres more to be done
17:11:10 [dakahn]
spectranaut: issue #1765, consider calling out aria-hidden expectations for focusable elements--this is a clarification
17:11:14 [frank_elavsky]
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17:12:02 [dakahn]
scotto: has had conversations with multiple developers over the past few weeks. we could use some clarification since aria hidden has changed over the years. it's not always going to hide stuff and the definition doesn't say that
17:12:48 [dakahn]
moved to 1.4 milestone
17:13:08 [dakahn]
chlane: interested in helping. thinks we need to surface this in aria-hidden definition
17:13:27 [dakahn]
spectranaut: moving on to core-aam #130
17:13:37 [siri]
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17:13:38 [dakahn]
...doesn't need to be discussed, just a bug in spec
17:14:06 [dakahn]
spectranaut: in aria #1764 further clarifications to form role
17:14:19 [siri]
Can you add me to aria-hidden issue? Interest to learn the process
17:15:11 [dakahn]
scotto: john raised issue in html spec about how form roles need accessible names, but that may not be needed or only needed when the form is a landmark. questions why someone is using a form role or why this is needed
17:15:26 [jcraig]
present+
17:15:32 [dakahn]
StefanS: if there are multiple forms present this can be helpful
17:16:06 [dakahn]
scotto: it would be good to put that in the guidance
17:16:32 [dakahn]
StefanS: potentially not needed if there is only one instance on a page, but there could be a use case with multiple forms
17:16:48 [dakahn]
moved to 1.4 milestone
17:17:31 [dakahn]
CurtBellew: if you had more than one form element on a page you'd have a case for giving it an accessible name. if you had two regions on the page and you wanted them to have a unique name im assuming this would go along with this as well
17:17:58 [dakahn]
spectranaut: next issue is #1763 on aria
17:18:13 [siri]
present+
17:18:14 [dakahn]
jcraig: i just assigned that to myself
17:18:16 [dakahn]
zakim, next item
17:18:16 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3P7I3gj -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:43 [dakahn]
spectranaut: first one is html-aam #430
17:19:38 [dakahn]
scotto: an issue joanie created long ago before generic existed to indicate there are many elements in html that are not mapped but might bcome mapped if accessibility is added to them. this has largely went away, but there are still instances where a developer could expose not mapped elements and expose them
17:19:55 [dakahn]
...would appreciate reviews, or being told to close this as unneeded
17:20:11 [dakahn]
jcraig: you can add me as reviewer, can you clarify what you mean by 'if we dont need this anymore'
17:21:13 [dakahn]
scotto: take the style element. its not mapped since its not supposed to be exposed, but if someone were to put one in the body of their html and render it as display block--this pr spcifiys that language. potentially helpful in a few instances or might be unnecessary
17:21:51 [dakahn]
jcraig: i think a note is super useful--whether we need to go into detail about every possible way is not necessary
17:22:03 [dakahn]
scotto: definitely would appreciate any feedback we have on it
17:22:26 [dakahn]
spectranaut: next pr is #1766 on aria from jcraig
17:23:07 [dakahn]
jcraig: adds CEReactions IDL property. asked for alex's review, but happy to have other reviewers as well
17:23:18 [dakahn]
spectranaut: is this editorial?
17:23:40 [dakahn]
jcraig: definitely more than editorial, but isn't anything that requires additional tests for aria because they're already tested in the rendering engine and different places
17:23:47 [dakahn]
spectranaut: i'll take a look too
17:23:55 [dakahn]
...next pr is #132 also from you jcraig
17:24:31 [dakahn]
jcraig: we have some weird menuitem in group guidance. we're going to take it out of webkit and remove the guidance
17:24:51 [dakahn]
spectranaut: next is #429 on html-aam from scotto
17:26:01 [dakahn]
scotto: there is a html-aam issue related and a chromium bug related. this adds language to indicate that a required element should not be immediately exposed as invalid. which is inconsistently the case. html had an issue filed against them as well. this pr adds language to indicate users should wait for an interaction before exposing required fields as invalid.
17:26:51 [dakahn]
siri and jcraig added as reviewers
17:27:23 [dakahn]
scotto: would make sense to put aaron on here as well since he's already on the bug
17:27:42 [siri]
shirsha
17:27:44 [dakahn]
spectranaut: last one is also on html-aam from scotto #423
17:28:33 [dakahn]
scotto: this adds to the naming steps for button elements a missing label element. because label works on these things and that's been a long standing mission from the naming steps. nothing changing, just a light review
17:28:56 [dakahn]
jcraig: can you tell me what that means to add a label
17:29:45 [dakahn]
scotto: right now the naming steps list out 'first use aria-label aria-labelledby, next use aria-' but the label element also works to name these. and takes precedent as the second step. label will always win out over sub tree or title.
17:30:49 [dakahn]
jcraig: this doesn't need to be called out expclicitely by ACC-Name
17:31:31 [dakahn]
jcraig: you can put me on this. i dont have the abiltiy to put myself on these
17:31:40 [dakahn]
MichaelC: try refreshing--maybe it will pick them up
17:31:45 [dakahn]
spectranaut: were they just added
17:32:04 [dakahn]
MichaelC: should be in the same group that i expanded the permissions for. everyone had read access and you need tree access to be on issues
17:32:17 [MichaelC]
s/tree/triage/
17:33:10 [dakahn]
CurtBellew and dakahn offer to review
17:33:31 [dakahn]
CurtBellew: noticed label isn't called out like id expect so this seems like an opportunity
17:34:01 [dakahn]
scotto: there are a number of inconsistencies with how these elements handle their naming. we're finally going down the path to get the necessary docs to write these things to reflect reality
17:34:14 [dakahn]
...so thats coming someday or i might quit the internet
17:34:21 [dakahn]
everyone: don't quit!
17:34:38 [dakahn]
jcraig: this probably needs some tests
17:34:55 [CurtBellew_]
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17:35:20 [dakahn]
scotto: yeah i do agree. so i could use some help on where we could post those test. i know we have platform tests, but this has been a spec that hasn't really had anything going up there. happy to write the tests myself
17:35:56 [dakahn]
siri: help me understand
17:36:25 [jcraig]
<label>bar<button>foo</button></label>
17:36:32 [dakahn]
scotto: you could have a button element and you could have a label element -- the button element could have an empty subtree, but the label element could have content in it
17:36:50 [dakahn]
...in the cases of nesting a button inside of a label theres more to do
17:36:57 [jcraig]
^ Is this "foo" or "foo bar" or "foobar" <label>bar<button>foo</button></label>
17:37:11 [dakahn]
spectranaut: the fact that we dont have tests seems like somethign we need to resolve. an action item for a later meeting
17:37:13 [dakahn]
zakim, nest item
17:37:13 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'nest item', dakahn
17:37:17 [dakahn]
zakim, next item
17:37:17 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:37:35 [jcraig]
s/"foo bar" or "foobar"/"bar" or "bar foo" or "barfoo"/
17:37:46 [dakahn]
spectranaut: deep dive planning. next week we have dialogs and the week after that we have popup. any other items anyone wants to have deep dive for
17:38:34 [dakahn]
dakahn: what kind of things can we have deep dives on
17:38:48 [dakahn]
jcraig: anything tangentially related to what we're working on but that might run over a regular meeting
17:38:51 [dakahn]
zakim, next item
17:38:51 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Announcement: TPAC registration is open -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:39:19 [dakahn]
spectranaut: reminder that cpac registration is open and early bird rates last till august 5th. also there is a charge for remote attendance
17:39:30 [dakahn]
scotto: so we have to pay to go to a meeting? sign me up!
17:39:42 [MichaelC]
https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/
17:40:01 [dakahn]
zakim, next item
17:40:01 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- -> Reminder: 1.3 prioritization action items https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2022Jun/0022.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:41:06 [dakahn]
spectranaut: we started to talk about how to prioritize 1.3 and as a first step we talked about putting labels on the issues assigned to us so we can prioritize what we need to keep/move. please look at all the issues assigned to you under the 1.3 milestone. jcraig did all his homework already so good job!
17:41:22 [dakahn]
zakim, next item
17:41:22 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- -> Review/revise mappings for input type=file https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/421 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:41:44 [dakahn]
spectranaut: review revize mapping for input type="file"
17:41:48 [dakahn]
scotto: why dont we skip this one this week
17:41:57 [dakahn]
...lets do the white space one
17:42:03 [dakahn]
zakim, next item
17:42:03 [Zakim]
agendum 6 was just opened, dakahn
17:42:14 [dakahn]
zakim, close this item
17:42:14 [Zakim]
agendum 6 closed
17:42:15 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:42:15 [Zakim]
7. -> "Whitespace characters" underspecified https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128 [from agendabot]
17:42:24 [dakahn]
zakim, next item
17:42:24 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- -> "Whitespace characters" underspecified https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/128 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:42:53 [dakahn]
spectranaut: so this is a 1.2 blocking issue. its something we have to get resolved. the issue is that white space is under defined as far as i can tell.
17:43:00 [dakahn]
...looks like theres been some discussion on this
17:44:07 [dakahn]
pkra: just checking if we needed to do more work on this. looked at the aria tracker to see if it had come up in the past year or two. i dont have any particular feelings about it
17:44:31 [dakahn]
jcraig: i have a feeling that we should avoid at all costs specifiying the particular unicode. if html does this already we should point to that
17:45:02 [pkra]
https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/common-microsyntaxes.html#space-separated-tokens
17:45:05 [dakahn]
scotto: i believe they do. i linked to the html-aam in pr. i started working on this back in 2019 and then the world ended so i stopped. html does have something specified
17:45:13 [dakahn]
...in #239
17:45:43 [dakahn]
...i had taken a stab at doing something for this in html-aam. dont remember what i wrote, but linked to it here if there was anything useful for core aam. if we are going to define this it makes sense to not just do it in html aam
17:45:59 [dakahn]
...i would submit this is not the place for this. we should point to html have alread identified
17:46:18 [dakahn]
jcraig: space separated tokens is different in this context, but id be surprised if html didn't have this defined
17:47:13 [dakahn]
pkra: there are links to the html spec and white space definitions. there are braille specific white space attributes to consider
17:47:49 [dakahn]
spectranaut: its not clear we can just point to the html spec or any of the others
17:47:58 [dakahn]
jcraig: theres probably someone who knows the answer to that but not on this call
17:48:08 [dakahn]
...in the html working group would be my guess. one of those editors
17:48:38 [dakahn]
spectranaut: if you think someone from html could answer a question ehre could you ask them in an issue
17:48:41 [dakahn]
jcraig: i will
17:49:02 [dakahn]
spectranaut: sounds like no one is enthused to champion this issue for the sake of 1.2 getting out the door
17:49:16 [dakahn]
pkra: are we talking about core-aam or 1.2? it was filed against core aam
17:49:45 [dakahn]
spectranaut: my understanding is its a change we'd have to do to 1.2. or is 1.2 blocking but maybe MichaelC would know
17:49:58 [dakahn]
MichaelC: i dont know the answer off hand
17:50:06 [dakahn]
scotto: i think its core aam 1.2 not aria 1.2
17:50:15 [dakahn]
spectranaut: isn't core aam 1.2 blocking aria 1.2
17:50:31 [dakahn]
MichaelC: once it transitions to CR
17:50:40 [dakahn]
spectranaut: is this something that blocks it going to cr?
17:51:01 [dakahn]
MichaelC: i dont think so. we can always just say we're not addressing this issue now and go to cr and see if people object. since we're going evergreen shouldn't be a big issue
17:51:14 [dakahn]
spectranaut: maybe the next step is to get input from jcraig from html. doesn't seem urgent
17:51:38 [dakahn]
pkra: unicode has a concept of whitespace--why is that not what people refer to when they talk about whitespace
17:51:54 [dakahn]
spectranaut: if you want to look that up and reference it in the issue--i dont know why
17:53:16 [dakahn]
scotto: we need this resolved--do we count white space characters and whitespace characters alone as an ACC-Name? seems like a bad idea
17:53:41 [dakahn]
pkra: surprised this hasn't been solved. how is this something that a lot of specs haven't run into?
17:53:48 [dakahn]
spectranaut: looks like all the specs are doing it on their own
17:54:00 [dakahn]
jcraig: all the more reason to not duplicate that work. find the best one and point to that
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17:54:27 [dakahn]
spectranaut: anything else to say?
17:54:31 [dakahn]
zakim, next item
17:54:31 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- -> Columnheader roles do not work with the abbr attribute https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/816 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:55:03 [dakahn]
spectranaut: its another scotto issue, sorry. we only discussed half of this last time. said we wanted to discuss aria-cellheaders
17:55:09 [dakahn]
scotto: dont think we can get through that in 5 minutes
17:55:16 [dakahn]
spectranaut: maybe we'll stop 5 minutes early for once
17:55:59 [StefanS]
present+
17:57:10 [spectranaut]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:57:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/14-aria-minutes.html spectranaut
17:57:23 [dakahn]
rrsagent
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18:06:47 [jcraig]
present+ frank_elavsky
18:06:59 [jcraig]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:06:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/14-aria-minutes.html jcraig