IRC log of me on 2022-07-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:58:41 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #me

13:58:41 [RRSAgent]

logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/07/12-me-irc

13:58:45 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #me

13:59:38 [cpn]

cpn has joined #me

14:00:18 [hyojin]

hyojin has joined #me

14:00:39 [tidoust]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:00:51 [tidoust]

Meeting: Media & Entertainment IG meeting

14:01:31 [tidoust]

Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e3893215-0d4e-48b5-bfdb-57f37be5bfbb

14:01:36 [nigel]

nigel has joined #me

14:05:12 [igarashi__]

igarashi__ has joined #me

14:05:20 [nigel]

Present+ Nigel_Megitt_BBC

14:05:26 [atai]

atai has joined #me

14:05:37 [igarashi__]

present+ Igarashi_Sony

14:06:04 [kaz]

present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Chris_Needham, Francois_Daoust, Gary_Katsevman, Hyojin_Song

14:06:29 [kaz]

present+ John_Riviello, Piers_O'Hanlon

14:07:26 [kaz]

zakim, who is on the call?

14:07:26 [Zakim]

Present: Nigel_Megitt_BBC, Igarashi_Sony, Kaz_Ashimura, Chris_Needham, Francois_Daoust, Gary_Katsevman, Hyojin_Song, John_Riviello, Piers_O'Hanlon

14:07:53 [cpn]

scribe+ cpn

14:08:01 [cpn]

Topic: Introduction

14:08:29 [atai]

Meeting number: 640 253 945

14:08:53 [cpn]

ChrisN: Two things on the agenda, TV application development

14:09:09 [cpn]

... and then look at our TPAC plans

14:09:13 [cpn]

Topic: TPAC

14:09:54 [kaz]

agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/2022Jul/0002.html

14:10:13 [Louay]

Louay has joined #me

14:10:19 [cpn]

s/TPAC/TV application development

14:10:43 [tidoust]

-> https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/pull/86/files Web development experience charter pull request

14:11:09 [cpn]

ChrisL: Performance on TVs is difficult. Mobile is a comparison, that was difficult because of slow devices, no longer the case today

14:11:19 [kaz]

s/Web deve/PR 86 - Web deve/

14:11:21 [cpn]

... But TVs still slow compared to mobile phones

14:11:30 [cpn]

... Another topic is the developer experience

14:11:40 [cpn]

... We have a problem statement on development experience

14:12:16 [kaz]

rrsagent, make log public

14:12:21 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:12:21 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/12-me-minutes.html kaz

14:12:31 [cpn]

... I think it would help developers to have a standard way to load development URLs on a TV

14:12:46 [cpn]

... There are many manufacturers, each has its own developer experience

14:13:11 [kaz]

chair: Chris_Needham, Chris_Lorenzo, Tatsuya_Igarashi

14:13:13 [cpn]

... Typically the flow is to go their website, create a developer account, link your device, go into the menu and find the developer mode setting

14:13:32 [cpn]

... then go back to the developer portal and upload your site, then hope that your site loads on the TV

14:13:35 [kaz]

present+ Chris_Lorenzo, Andras_Tai

14:13:40 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:13:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/12-me-minutes.html kaz

14:13:46 [JohnRiv]

JohnRiv has joined #me

14:13:50 [cpn]

... sometimes it needs packaging up. Testing across multiple TVs is difficult and time consuming

14:14:02 [cpn]

... So how to make it easier, have a local dev environment you can load on the TV

14:14:22 [cpn]

... Chromecast has become ubiquitous, can cast to TV from a button in a website

14:15:05 [cpn]

... If we can get the same functionality, copy a local URL and port, load into the browser with debug tools available, would be a fantastic experience for developers

14:15:23 [cpn]

... Enable more people to be involved in building applications. This can be done together with the performance stuff

14:15:57 [cpn]

... Comments received: creating new APIs, to know you're on a TV, HDR, changing linear channels, audio configuration, Dolby 5.1 or surround

14:15:57 [cpn]

q?

14:16:02 [hyojin]

hyojin has joined #me

14:16:23 [atai]

atai has joined #me

14:16:28 [tidoust]

scribe+ tidoust

14:17:00 [tidoust]

cpn: Purpose of this document is to scope some work around developer experience on TVs. Very useful thing to do to invite more participation and setup goals.

14:17:14 [tidoust]

... So first, thank you for preparing this.

14:17:32 [tidoust]

... Introduction focuses very much on that developer experience you're describing.

14:17:42 [tidoust]

... However, the list of topics is much broader.

14:18:05 [tidoust]

... If the intent to focus narrowly on the developer experiences or to address the list of topics?

14:18:14 [tidoust]

... If the latter, we should adapt the intro

14:18:43 [cpn]

ChrisL: Two pieces we talked about: development experience, and APIs for performance

14:18:44 [kaz]

present+ Louay_Bassbouss

14:18:56 [kaz]

q+

14:19:28 [tidoust]

cpn: I agree it can all be in the same document. Personally speaking, the slightly broader scope is helpful.

14:19:56 [tidoust]

... Interested to hear views from people in this call.

14:20:06 [kaz]

q+ Piers

14:20:10 [kaz]

ack p

14:20:18 [cpn]

Piers: I don't get heavily involved, but in the HbbTV world there are developer resources. How does this intersect?

14:20:21 [ChrisLorenzo]

ChrisLorenzo has joined #me

14:20:43 [cpn]

... There's the HbbTV web APIs and the web browser app that runs on the TV, doesn't have the same environment

14:20:51 [cpn]

... So issues around which environment you're using

14:21:03 [atai]

q+

14:21:40 [cpn]

... And a third component is the media engine, which can be separated from the APIs. Some of the state and HTTP based information can differ based on which entity is making requests

14:22:08 [cpn]

Kaz: Thank you Chris Lorenzo for bringing this problem statement

14:22:34 [nigel]

q+ to ask if the use of WebASM impacts this problem statement at all

14:22:37 [cpn]

... I think we should see some more implementations and deployment of web based media distribution globally. My suggestion is to include that kind of survey in scope

14:22:59 [cpn]

... We can generate a more detailed problem statement, and think about our requirements and expectations, about making things faster and so on

14:23:18 [cpn]

... And then some kind of existing workarounds or extensions for web based media distribution as well

14:23:39 [cpn]

... Can vary between different regions, US, Europe, Japan. Think about potential solutions, and get ideas from a survey

14:24:27 [kaz]

ack k

14:24:31 [kaz]

ack a

14:24:31 [cpn]

Andreas: The approach should be cross environment, Hybridcast, HbbTV, manufacturer specific environments. Where is the best place for the standards activity, where does it fit?

14:24:54 [kaz]

i/I don't get h/scribenick: cpn/

14:24:58 [cpn]

... Is the problem the same for IoT devices, not just TVs, so an even broader scope?

14:25:29 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:25:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/12-me-minutes.html kaz

14:25:34 [cpn]

Nigel: You don't mention WASM. People are talking about using that to create user experiences that are more performant

14:25:47 [cpn]

... Would that change the problem statement at all, or is it orthogonal?

14:26:12 [cpn]

ChrisL: WASM doesn't really change the scope. It would still run in a browser, so the developer issue of loading the URL still exists

14:26:39 [cpn]

... On the performance topic, WASM definitely changes how we develop apps. Some companies are experimenting with it, WASM with WebGL for rendering

14:26:56 [cpn]

... But the downside is that it's still new, so not a lot of examples or developer experience with it

14:27:21 [cpn]

Nigel: About testing, do you also think it's useful to have test drivers that work across different TVs

14:27:46 [cpn]

ChrisL: It's critical, WebDriver is supposed to handle that, it should be in scope, to automate TV browser navigation

14:28:10 [JohnRiv]

q+

14:28:30 [cpn]

ack n

14:28:30 [Zakim]

nigel, you wanted to ask if the use of WebASM impacts this problem statement at all

14:28:38 [hyojin]

q+

14:29:10 [cpn]

JohnRiv: On WASM, one think that came up for Web Media API snapshot, is some TVs are only 32bit, so can't have full support

14:29:21 [cpn]

ack j

14:29:40 [cpn]

Hyojin: Thanks for sharing the problem statement. On the developer experience, it depends on the underlying platform

14:29:56 [cpn]

... Mobile app development has similar problems. Tools such as emulators and remote inspectors

14:30:32 [cpn]

... For embedded platform cases, it could be provided by the platform side. The background section of the document has several ideas to be considered

14:30:48 [cpn]

... If you have any proposed API for those we could discuss in GitHub issues

14:31:11 [cpn]

... In potential topics, I'm interested in the TV app store topic, but not sure who can drive creating one

14:31:50 [cpn]

... Could W3C or other alliance do that? Could consider PWA as a packaging technique, we could go into that subject in a separate issue

14:32:33 [cpn]

ChrisL: That's great, PWA, I'd be happy to present on how that's evolved on the mobile web side

14:32:46 [cpn]

... Makes sense for TV apps if we can have a single way to package apps and have one store to submit to

14:33:13 [cpn]

... There are a few PWA stores out there for different OSs. Don't know what conglomerate we'd have to make to use one app store, but a good topic

14:33:54 [cpn]

Hyojin: The most challenging thing from an embedded platform point of view, is that for us we haven't supported the functionality for now, so PWA requires some platform adaptation work

14:34:06 [cpn]

... Have you considered how to apply PWA in the web app environment?

14:34:42 [cpn]

ChrisL: Need to talk about how it would work, e.g., Service Worker for offline mode. If we set the standard now, hopefully TVs would have support built in

14:34:51 [cpn]

... But not be backwards compatible for all TVs

14:35:19 [cpn]

Hyojin: As far as I know there's no TV platform that supports PWA right now, but they may have considered it. We could discuss it in the future

14:35:20 [cpn]

q?

14:35:22 [cpn]

ack h

14:37:08 [kaz]

cpn: thanks, btw, regarding, Andreas' question about where to have the discussion

14:37:53 [kaz]

... what we should do is we as the W3C MEIG work with the related SDOs like HbbTV, ATSC and IPTV Forum

14:38:28 [kaz]

s/regarding,/regarding/

14:38:36 [kaz]

i/thanks/scribenick: kaz/

14:39:18 [kaz]

... who use our technology and extend it based on their requirements

14:39:40 [kaz]

... how much they're interested is important

14:40:07 [kaz]

... need to look into the scope

14:40:34 [kaz]

at: definitely good to talk with them

14:40:42 [kaz]

... try to get feedback, etc.

14:40:42 [cpn]

Andreas: It would be good to talk with those organisations and get some feedbak

14:41:08 [kaz]

s/feedbak/feedback/

14:41:14 [kaz]

s/... try to get feedback, etc.//

14:41:18 [kaz]

s/at: definitely good to talk with them//

14:41:25 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:41:25 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/12-me-minutes.html kaz

14:41:26 [cpn]

... Could have a joint meeting. Discuss more details beforehand, but would be good to ask those organisations about that, and the proposed solutions

14:41:47 [kaz]

cpn: agree

14:42:04 [kaz]

... make it broader than the current text but not too broad

14:42:11 [kaz]

... may need iteration

14:42:12 [tidoust]

q+

14:42:13 [cpn]

q?

14:42:49 [kaz]

fd: W3C should be the right place to have the discussion :)

14:43:09 [kaz]

q+

14:43:12 [kaz]

ack t

14:43:25 [kaz]

cpn: one of another topic came to mind

14:43:49 [kaz]

... perhaps should look at APIs for media streaming, etc.

14:44:05 [kaz]

... good presentation at a conference

14:44:20 [kaz]

... from the people have experience on media handling

14:44:43 [kaz]

... that's something interesting the group may want to help

14:45:06 [kaz]

... wondering if we'd extend the scope of this proposal

14:45:37 [kaz]

... if there is interest, welcome to see it

14:45:45 [kaz]

... to facilitate the discussion

14:46:25 [cpn]

Kaz: During the MEIG chairs calls, we've discussed making a dedicated TF for these issues, then think about how to solve the problem, and what kind of document might be generated

14:47:05 [cpn]

... I'd suggest we start with task force charter generation, focusing not so much on the specific problems, but define the scope in general

14:47:15 [cpn]

... There's an example ME TF charter

14:47:16 [kaz]

-> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/Media_Production_Task_Force e.g., Media Production TF

14:48:25 [cpn]

ChrisN: We can put into a similar structure. Next step is to refine the document that Chris started, people are welcome to reply to the pull request

14:48:25 [kaz]

cpn: sounds like we would put the proposal into some template and add clarifications

14:48:29 [kaz]

s/cpn: sounds like we would put the proposal into some template and add clarifications//

14:49:04 [ChrisLorenzo]

q+

14:49:08 [cpn]

Kaz: My impression is that people here are interested in the topic. Add clarification for further discussion

14:49:09 [cpn]

ack k

14:49:10 [kaz]

ack k

14:49:16 [kaz]

ack c

14:49:46 [kaz]

q+

14:49:49 [cpn]

ChrisL: I'll remove the TV API support and make that a separate item. So developer experience will be: loading the development environment and packaging for production release (PWA)

14:50:36 [kaz]

cpn: we've identified three big items here

14:50:49 [kaz]

... do you want to initiate discussion for each of them?

14:51:02 [kaz]

... or start with some specific focus?

14:51:11 [cpn]

ChrisN: Three areas: Development experience, app performance, and TV specific APIs

14:51:47 [cpn]

ChrisL: Performance is somewhat unclear on what the solutions may be. Benchmarking in WAVE group. Focus for now on simplified developer experience

14:51:53 [kaz]

q+

14:52:43 [cpn]

Kaz: I agree with ChrisN. There are several possible next steps, we can handle web performance issues in general, or another possibility is choosing one or other items to concentrate on such as TV API

14:53:15 [cpn]

... My understanding was discuss performance again, and clarify the problem statement based on people's input, including related SDOs

14:53:30 [cpn]

... Then think about detail of those topics, API definition, later

14:53:52 [cpn]

ChrisL: This is the survey idea, three potential topics, could do them all if there's interest from the community

14:54:04 [cpn]

... I'm interested in them all

14:54:21 [cpn]

Kaz: If some participants are interested in one topic or other, concentrate on those at that time

14:55:17 [cpn]

ChrisN: I like the idea of focusing for now, but capture all suggestions

14:55:52 [cpn]

... Thanks all for your input, we'll refine the TF scope and come back with next steps

14:55:56 [cpn]

Topic: TPAC planning

14:56:20 [cpn]

ChrisN: GH issue for planning: https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/issues/83

14:56:38 [cpn]

... We'll have a single 2-hour dedicated MEIG meeting

14:56:59 [cpn]

... Then other meetings during the week, joint meeting with Media WG and WebRTC WG planning

14:57:12 [cpn]

... And TTWG and Media WG both meeting

14:57:35 [cpn]

... So what include in our MEIG meeting agenda?

14:58:07 [cpn]

... Could get into more detail on the topics from today's call

14:58:34 [cpn]

... Other group joint topic suggestings?

14:58:47 [Karen]

Karen has joined #ME

14:58:53 [JohnRiv]

q+

14:59:42 [cpn]

JohnRiv: Typically WAVE gives an update, so we can talk about stuff. Can look at additions to Web Media API snapshot

14:59:51 [kaz]

ack k

14:59:55 [kaz]

ack j

15:00:38 [cpn]

... Work being done on tracing, related group in W3C

15:00:53 [cpn]

ChrisN: Will follow up with you on that

15:00:58 [kaz]

q?

15:01:40 [cpn]

Topic: Next meeting

15:01:48 [ChrisLorenzo]

List of Topics Loading development URLs on TV Packaging TV apps using PWA standards Performance benchmarking TV APIs needed

15:01:57 [cpn]

ChrisN: August 2, 3 weeks from now

15:02:03 [cpn]

[adjourned]

15:02:37 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:02:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/12-me-minutes.html kaz

15:28:10 [atai]

atai has joined #me

15:31:50 [atai1]

atai1 has joined #me

15:38:26 [Karen]

Karen has joined #ME

16:16:39 [cpn]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:16:39 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/07/12-me-minutes.html cpn

16:29:02 [cpn_]

cpn_ has joined #me

17:18:34 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #me

18:18:50 [Karen]

Karen has joined #ME

18:22:44 [atai]

atai has joined #me

18:50:03 [Karen]

Karen has joined #ME

20:20:43 [Karen]

Karen has joined #ME

21:45:01 [Karen]

Karen has joined #ME