16:04:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-dive
16:04:37 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/06/30-aria-dive-irc
16:04:39 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:04:41 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:04:49 <jamesn> title: ARIA deep dive
16:04:53 <spectranaut> scribe: spectranaut
16:05:02 <scotto_> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/373
16:05:53 <siri> siri has joined #aria-dive
16:05:53 <spectranaut> bryan: implicit generic role elements.. previously only div and span, but there are a bunch of html elements that could use this
16:06:03 <spectranaut> bryan: the goal is to identify which elements those are
16:06:15 <spectranaut> bryan: important for how it maps in the accname
16:06:45 <spectranaut> jamesn: we have agreement on 10 from the issue, and questions on the remaining seven
16:08:00 <jamesn> q?
16:09:08 <spectranaut> scotto_: when we were previously working on role parity, the text level semantics were thought of as being possible generics. others such as hgroup are now mapped to generic. there are still other elements that have semantic importance, such as audio/video/embed/iframe, where we didn't call out that they get a role, they don't have a role defined, but they still have accessibility mapping. when I was trying to map the elements to
16:09:08 <spectranaut> generic in this  issue... [scott gets philosophical about the meaning of words]
16:10:11 <spectranaut> scotto_: how pedantic do we want to be about the code role? what about var, keyboard... if exposed... might be only exposed by change of voice. the b, i and u are generally thought of as holdovers from html past, have no semantic meaning, but in html they have a semantic meaning
16:10:18 <spectranaut> scotto_: why aren't they all emphasis role?
16:10:23 <spectranaut> scotto_: they do represent something
16:10:36 <spectranaut> scotto_: voiceover can navigate by styling of these elements?
16:11:20 <spectranaut> scotto_: do we need a role for things? such as audio/visible? is everything a group?
16:11:26 <jamesn> q?
16:11:31 <spectranaut> s/visible/video
16:13:31 <spectranaut> jcraig: the primary way a mac voiceover user would jump between these kinds of elements and determine what kind of visual styling properties they have -- 1 you can jump to the next differently styled element, 2 you can change the verbosity settings so that style changes are announced (from bold to normal, etc), sometimes footnotes or titles are emphasized 3  they can, where ever the cursor is, ask for the style properties, which are
16:13:31 <spectranaut> very specific
16:13:51 <spectranaut> jcraig: as such, there is not significant semantic difference in the accessibility tree
16:14:38 <spectranaut> jcraig: that was my point for a related issue, these are all stylistic hooks. as they are implemented in the style sheet. in the platform apis some things get mapped differently
16:14:38 <jamesn> q?
16:15:10 <spectranaut> bryan: any specific elements that are namable? that you would like to expose and accessible name? not these style ones, but maybe others, like video?
16:15:40 <spectranaut> jcraig: maybe not namable... but dd and dt and figcaption have some semantics. var could map to code. pre might map to code.
16:15:58 <spectranaut> jcraig: the stylistic ones, there is no reason to have a special role for them
16:16:18 <jamesn> q+
16:17:04 <spectranaut> scotto_: back to the naming question, I've come across a few instance where there could have been an address element. for example, home vs office address. but there is no visual heading to differentiate between the two, just an icon
16:17:11 <spectranaut> jamesn: but the icon could have an accessible name
16:17:26 <spectranaut> scotto_: but there is no direct programmatic association between the two
16:17:42 <spectranaut> jcraig: could be a background image style and there is no way to make it a label
16:17:52 <spectranaut> jamesn: but you could add a group or something to name it
16:18:21 <spectranaut> jamesn: you don't want <address role="group">, they can add aria-label somewhere else
16:18:45 <spectranaut> jamesn: we don't allow naming of this kind of stuff, there is a work around, we shouldn't change for a corner case
16:18:54 <spectranaut> scotto_: at one point address was mapped to contentinfo
16:19:04 <spectranaut> jamesn: oh I see so maybe this should be considered
16:19:15 <jamesn> ack me
16:19:33 <spectranaut> jamesn: I was going to suggest, why would we not map <b> to role strong?
16:19:46 <spectranaut> jamesn: if the default rendering is the same, why don't we map them the same
16:19:56 <spectranaut> jcraig: why do we have a role of strong?
16:19:59 <spectranaut> jamesn: role parity
16:20:08 <spectranaut> jcraig: but strong is generic as well
16:20:16 <spectranaut> jamesn: why did we introduce it in 1.3?
16:20:35 <spectranaut> jcraig: I was apposed to it. I want role parity, EXCEPT for stylistic stuff
16:20:47 <spectranaut> s/apposed/opposed/
16:21:33 <spectranaut> jcraig: in mac, they are all generic
16:21:58 <spectranaut> aaronl: I can't easily check what chrome does rn
16:22:12 <spectranaut> jamesn: there is a subrole, "strong style group"
16:22:34 <spectranaut> aaronl: generic role for stylistic elements
16:22:46 <spectranaut> aaronl: in chrome, in the AXTree
16:23:06 <spectranaut> jcraig: I've never see ax strong style group
16:23:53 <spectranaut> jcraig: I doubt that subrole is being used
16:24:18 <spectranaut> jcraig: but we now have a difference between things that are styled as bold and things that are <b>, which is weird and bad
16:25:44 <jcraig> s/<b>, which is weird and bad/<strong>, without any functional reason/
16:26:09 <jcraig> s/subrole is being used/subrole is being used by AT like VO/
16:26:17 <spectranaut> bryan: we have role parity, what I would like from this discussion, is what is mapped to generic but have a sensible role mapping, and which things should be mapped to generic
16:26:36 <spectranaut> scotto_: what about audio, where there are platform controls and control types, but no aria roles
16:26:39 <jcraig> q?
16:27:15 <jcraig> q+ to say what if role maps to "reserved:audio"
16:28:30 <spectranaut> scotto_: for some of the things in this issue.... like abbr... is that really a generic??
16:29:12 <spectranaut> if you have three uppercase letters, voice as A-D-D not "add"
16:30:14 <spectranaut> bryan: does anyone disagree with the 10 more obvious ones
16:30:25 <spectranaut> jamesn: maybe we should go through 1 by 1
16:30:33 <spectranaut> jamesn: first, is "area" with no href
16:30:52 <spectranaut> jamesn: map to generic
16:31:19 <spectranaut> jcraig: generic implies that something should be in the tree... but without href maybe it should be not mapped, not in the tree?
16:31:39 <spectranaut> jamesn: but if it has no href, but as an alt, wouldn't it be mapped?
16:31:57 <spectranaut> jcraig: in theory sure, but I've never seen it before, but I guess it should be generic
16:32:05 <spectranaut> jamesn: why not call it generic, because "who cares?"
16:32:13 <spectranaut> jcraig: not reasonable for automation tests....
16:32:29 <spectranaut> aaronl: you can put whatever you want in a map, including paragraphs
16:32:48 <spectranaut> jcraig: the implementation difference is negligible where it is empty
16:33:02 <spectranaut> jamesn: NEXT: b, any object to generic?
16:33:14 <spectranaut> scotto_: b and i are suppose to have no special meeting in html
16:33:48 <spectranaut> jcraig: this surprised me, because strong and emph are mapped.... maybe they should have subroles....
16:33:59 <spectranaut> jamesn: we are not introducing a b role
16:34:22 <spectranaut> jamesn: if we map it to strong, then that would go against what html is doing, which is trying to make these things different
16:34:56 <spectranaut> scotto_: I would not expect AT to announce these roles, ever, it is just to indicate the same changes to bold
16:35:29 <spectranaut> jamesn: maybe in the future, they would announce b if we map it, but not font-weight=bold
16:35:45 <spectranaut> s/jamesn: maybe/scotto_: maybe
16:36:31 <spectranaut> jamesn: I fear us setting ourselves up for a fight if we map b and strong the same
16:37:08 <spectranaut> jamesn: we have other things to do
16:37:42 <spectranaut> scotto_: per your point, james, we can map these to generic as was previously decided. if I ever feel like I want to frustrate my week, I'll look into further
16:37:53 <spectranaut> jamesn: NEXT: kbd
16:38:05 <spectranaut> jcraig: I don't think this should be generic
16:38:14 <spectranaut> bryan: but what do we map it to?
16:38:28 <spectranaut> scotto_: visual resembled like code?
16:39:02 <spectranaut> jcraig: speech could know that ctrl means "control" not "c-t-r-l"
16:39:48 <spectranaut> bryan: when using jaws, I can't think of a time when the name would be exposed for kdb
16:40:11 <spectranaut> s/kdb/kbd/
16:40:15 <jamesn> q?
16:41:00 <spectranaut> jcraig: well issue 1, I think it should be generic, and issue 2, whether or not it should take a name
16:41:28 <spectranaut> bryan: the angle I'm coming from, if it is not generic and not mapped, then it can receive and accesible name
16:41:42 <spectranaut> jcraig: we should have some non-generic elements that are not namabl?
16:41:53 <spectranaut> s/namabl/namable/
16:42:33 <spectranaut> scotto_: I'll make a new issue for the acc name
16:42:55 <spectranaut> jamesn: anything that we are not sure should be broken out into an issue
16:43:21 <spectranaut> jamesn: NEXT: pre
16:43:34 <spectranaut> jcraig: it is exposed differently, based on styles
16:43:50 <spectranaut> jcraig: because these elements are pre-formatted. I think this is generic
16:44:27 <spectranaut> scotto_: indenting would occur, but the font style could be changed from not mono
16:44:40 <spectranaut> jcraig: but the AT already navigates by line
16:44:49 <spectranaut> jcraig: you can speak the tabs
16:44:57 <spectranaut> jamesn: I'm good with generic, any disagreement?
16:45:12 <spectranaut> jamesn: NEXT: q
16:45:25 <spectranaut> scotto_: also generic, it just adds quote on either side of the text
16:45:51 <spectranaut> jcraig: I think voice over ... the quotes are used a css generated content in a before and after pseudo element
16:46:16 <spectranaut> jcraig: I don't think firefox does and I don't know what chrome does, but they changed things which means It hink they don't
16:46:32 <spectranaut> scotto_: nvda and jaws speak pseudo content
16:46:40 <spectranaut> scotto_: I think inline generic
16:46:52 <spectranaut> jamesn: NEXT: s
16:46:57 <spectranaut> jcraig: generic
16:47:33 <spectranaut> scotto_: it represent not deleted content, but content that is no longer relevant, where you have an old price. but if the old content is announced without extra information
16:47:53 <spectranaut> scotto_: but maybe you can infer the lower number is the price?
16:48:19 <spectranaut> jamesn: I think strike through text should be read by default because in all cases it is important to know. I can't think of a single case where it is not useful
16:48:37 <spectranaut> aaronl: we asked jaws to read it by default they had turned it off for some reason
16:48:47 <spectranaut> jamesn: would it help screen readers if this actually had a role.....???
16:48:58 <spectranaut> aaronl: but what if there is another role on there?
16:49:19 <spectranaut> jamesn: it seems like this is something screen readers should do soemthing with and what can we do to help them?
16:49:45 <spectranaut> aaronl: it is a slow rolling movement... google docs is trying to get better support so they are working with jaws and nvda
16:50:10 <spectranaut> jcraig: I'm not sure what the change out be we already exposed the style
16:50:27 <spectranaut> jamesn: but does voice over or can voice over announce this info by default
16:50:36 <spectranaut> jcraig: we normally announce by speaking at a lower pitch
16:50:48 <spectranaut> jcraig: voice over could probably do by default... by mapping it to <del>
16:51:07 <spectranaut> jcraig: if this was an aria change to map to del, it seems reasonable to me
16:51:15 <spectranaut> jcraig: an easy change in webkit and voiceover
16:51:27 <spectranaut> aaronl: what if there is another role there, who would win?
16:52:13 <spectranaut> jamesn: <s role="checkbox">? what is this?
16:52:39 <spectranaut> jcraig: lets raise a separate issue in aria for this ^
16:53:23 <spectranaut> aaronl: I'm not worried about <s role="checkbox"> but I am <div role=menuitem style=strikethrough>
16:53:41 <spectranaut> jamesn: but you would also have disabled in that case
16:53:59 <spectranaut> scotto_: lets say small and u are generic
16:54:07 <spectranaut> scotto_: I'll open an issue for var, saying should we map it to code
16:54:21 <jamesn> q?
16:54:32 <spectranaut> scotto_: we would want to change the definition to make them a bit more generic, rather than specific parity for one html element
16:54:54 <spectranaut> scotto_: bdi and bdo, I think they are generic.....
16:55:06 <spectranaut> general agreement
16:55:53 <spectranaut> scotto_: cite has some additional semantics that make it more than just a piece of text, you can reference the url you are siting by an attribute. I think we need an issue for this one
16:56:03 <spectranaut> scotto_: address, I think there is usefulness in mapping to group
16:56:09 <spectranaut> jamesn: I'm ok with that
16:56:13 <spectranaut> general agreement
16:56:22 <spectranaut> scotto_: figcaption, nothing to do, we already agree
16:56:37 <spectranaut> scotto_: label and legend, they have the same mapping in core-aam, similar to caption
16:56:57 <spectranaut> scotto_: I'm curious if we need these at all, but its more than a 4 min convo
16:57:20 <spectranaut> scotto_: I think we need to talk about audio, video, iframe
16:57:34 <jcraig> s/I don't think firefox does and I don't know what chrome does, but they changed things which means It hink they don't/I think firefox maps against the DOM but may have special cased pseudo elements. I don't know what chrome does, but they recently shifted to use the DOM tree, rather than the render tree/
16:57:34 <spectranaut> scotto_: because they should be namable
16:57:36 <jcraig> ack me
16:57:36 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say what if role maps to "reserved:audio"
16:58:15 <spectranaut> bryan: action item, do we need to talk about this in ARIA working group?
16:58:30 <spectranaut> jamesn: we have this meeting notes, and many members in this group
16:58:45 <spectranaut> aaronl: we need a list of the changes and a short reason for the change
16:59:16 <spectranaut> scotto_: I will work on all this and make a response and make follow up issues
16:59:43 <spectranaut> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:59:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/30-aria-dive-minutes.html spectranaut
16:59:56 <spectranaut> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:59:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/30-aria-dive-minutes.html spectranaut
17:01:37 <jamesn> zakim, end meeting
17:01:37 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been (no one)
17:01:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:01:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/30-aria-dive-minutes.html Zakim
17:01:42 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jamesn; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:01:46 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-dive
18:23:00 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #aria-dive