IRC log of w3process on 2022-06-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:02:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #w3process
14:02:05 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/06/22-w3process-irc
14:02:05 [weiler]
present=
14:02:13 [weiler]
present+
14:02:17 [weiler]
present+ fantasai
14:02:29 [weiler]
present+ wseltzer
14:02:35 [weiler]
present+ plh
14:02:37 [weiler]
present+ florian
14:02:50 [plh]
plh has joined #w3process
14:02:58 [plh]
agenda+ Issues up for closure
14:02:58 [plh]
agenda+ Community Groups and Business Groups should be incorporated into the Process
14:02:58 [plh]
agenda+ Director-Free: Recusal from W3C Council
14:02:58 [plh]
agenda+ Let the Team rather than the Director handle progression on TR
14:02:59 [plh]
agenda+ Maturity Level is a weird term
14:02:59 [plh]
agenda+ TAG Appointment: Review the proposal before sending it to the AB
14:03:00 [plh]
agenda+ Process 2022 issues
14:03:02 [plh]
plh has changed the topic to: Next Process CG: June 22
14:03:19 [plh]
zakim, clear agenda
14:03:20 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:03:26 [plh]
agenda+ Issues up for closure
14:03:26 [plh]
agenda+ Community Groups and Business Groups should be incorporated into the Process
14:03:26 [plh]
agenda+ Director-Free: Recusal from W3C Council
14:03:26 [plh]
agenda+ Let the Team rather than the Director handle progression on TR
14:03:27 [plh]
agenda+ Maturity Level is a weird term
14:03:27 [plh]
agenda+ TAG Appointment: Review the proposal before sending it to the AB
14:03:28 [plh]
agenda+ Process 2022 issues
14:03:32 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
14:03:41 [plh]
Regrets+ DavidS
14:03:49 [plh]
regrets+ ChrisW
14:04:07 [weiler]
present+ jeff
14:04:28 [fantasai]
plh: Process is going to mainly manufactured by the Team, given attendance today.
14:04:32 [fantasai]
Topic: Issue to close
14:04:40 [fantasai]
plh: Two issues candidate to close
14:04:41 [wseltzer_bot]
+1 to close
14:04:58 [fantasai]
s/Issue to close/Review of Agenda/
14:05:04 [fantasai]
plh: recusal from council
14:05:18 [fantasai]
plh: pull request from Florian on Director-free
14:05:26 [fantasai]
plh: issue from fantasai about "Maturity Level"
14:05:29 [Ralph]
Ralph has joined #w3process
14:05:34 [fantasai]
plh: and TAG appointments, to review where we are on the issue
14:05:35 [Ralph]
present+
14:05:41 [fantasai]
plh: If we have time, we can do any other 2022 issue
14:05:46 [fantasai]
plh: Should we dive in?
14:05:49 [fantasai]
florian: Dive!
14:05:52 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:05:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Issues up for closure -- taken up [from plh]
14:06:00 [plh]
https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/443
14:06:03 [fantasai]
Topic: Issues for Closure
14:06:05 [fantasai]
Subtopic: Stronger emphasis on reaching Recommendation
14:06:16 [fantasai]
github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/443
14:06:36 [fantasai]
plh: Any objections to close this issue? We have an open PR on the Guide, and no proposals for altering the Process
14:06:39 [fantasai]
florian: Close it
14:06:46 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Close #443
14:06:57 [plh]
https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/462
14:07:10 [fantasai]
Subtopic: Process should requre CR transition to document plan for CR exit
14:07:19 [fantasai]
github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/462
14:07:24 [fantasai]
weiler: [describes issue]
14:07:28 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:07:28 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Community Groups and Business Groups should be incorporated into the Process -- taken up [from plh]
14:07:31 [fantasai]
various: let's close
14:07:38 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Close #462
14:07:39 [wseltzer]
+1 to close without change
14:07:45 [fantasai]
Topic: CG and BG processes into Process
14:07:53 [fantasai]
github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/409
14:08:00 [fantasai]
plh: I fear we have other priorities
14:08:11 [fantasai]
plh: Are we OK to defer this yet again?
14:08:47 [weiler]
fantasai: this is a big topic; I'm not sure what's being proposed is the way forward
14:08:58 [fantasai]
plh: Doubt more important than DF
14:09:04 [fantasai]
plh: Proposal is to defer yet again
14:09:06 [fantasai]
florian: Yes, defer
14:09:17 [fantasai]
florian: They are *mentioned* in the Process, but defined elsewhere
14:09:20 [jeff__]
q+
14:09:49 [fantasai]
jeff__: Small thing related to this context, have we made adequately clear that CEPC applies to CGs and BGs?
14:09:58 [fantasai]
wseltzer: Yes, it is in the Join to those groups
14:10:03 [weiler]
q+
14:10:05 [fantasai]
jeff__: To me that's the most important linkage that we might have
14:10:08 [plh]
ack jeff
14:10:17 [fantasai]
weiler: Rather than merely defer, how are we going ot get communities to tackle this?
14:10:18 [tzviya]
tzviya has joined #w3process
14:10:20 [fantasai]
weiler: It's bigger than us
14:10:26 [plh]
ack weiler
14:10:26 [fantasai]
weiler: How do we get tackle
14:10:38 [fantasai]
florian: I don't even know what we're trying to achieve, and we have other things we do want to achieve
14:10:46 [fantasai]
florian: if can wrap it up in 5min... otherwise defer
14:10:57 [fantasai]
weiler: not defer for us to do later, but kick it to some other part of community
14:11:09 [fantasai]
plh: We are the community. We're the CG for the Process
14:11:14 [wseltzer]
[Unless someone who proposes an alternative comes forward, I think we drop it.]
14:11:16 [fantasai]
plh: If someone wants to work on this, not going to object for sure
14:11:22 [fantasai]
plh: do we need to actively assign the work?
14:11:28 [fantasai]
plh: is deferred, not closed
14:11:38 [fantasai]
plh: I just want to send a clear signal that we don't have resources right now to take care of it
14:12:10 [Ralph]
scribe+
14:12:23 [florian]
fantasai: much of why CG's need more process is because they're trying to do things that should be done in WGs
14:12:30 [Ralph]
scribe-
14:12:36 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:12:36 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Director-Free: Recusal from W3C Council -- taken up [from plh]
14:12:39 [florian]
fantasai: so we should rather look into why they're doing that and fix that problem isntead
14:12:48 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Defer this cycle
14:12:50 [jeff__]
q+
14:12:52 [fantasai]
Topic: Recusal
14:12:56 [florian]
q+
14:13:01 [fantasai]
plh: We have some stuff in Process, do we need to put more?
14:13:11 [fantasai]
plh: We can always put stuff in the Guide, which is easier to change
14:13:17 [Ralph]
["recusal" is not the currently preferred term]
14:13:18 [fantasai]
plh: Harder to enforce, though, because not part of process
14:13:30 [plh]
ack jeff
14:13:43 [jeff__]
qq+
14:13:52 [fantasai]
plh: Question is, do we have enough in the Process for this today?
14:13:59 [fantasai]
plh: Last time I checked it doesn't reflect what we're actually doing
14:14:08 [fantasai]
plh: Either need to change experiment or process
14:14:10 [plh]
ack jeff
14:14:10 [Zakim]
jeff__, you wanted to react to jeff__
14:14:15 [Ralph]
-> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/Drafts/director-free/#council "5.7.2. The W3C Council" Director-free draft
14:14:34 [fantasai]
jeff__: In my mind, recusal is not unrelated to dismissal, and dissatisfied that dismissal is working as we need it to
14:14:43 [fantasai]
jeff__: Too early to come to a conclusion, need to keep experimenting
14:14:50 [fantasai]
jeff__: basis for my dissatisfaction is twofold
14:15:12 [fantasai]
jeff__: First of all, we've had successful Councils formed where potentia beneficiaries of the decisions have not been dismissed
14:15:13 [Ralph]
rrsagent, please make record public
14:15:15 [wseltzer]
q+
14:15:51 [wseltzer]
q-
14:16:14 [wseltzer]
s/jeff__: First of all, we've had successful Councils formed where potentia beneficiaries of the decisions have not been dismissed//
14:16:29 [wseltzer]
rrsagent, please make record member until cleaned up
14:16:29 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make record member until cleaned up', wseltzer. Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:16:58 [fantasai]
s/basis for my dissatisfaction is twofold/I think we need a post-mortem for the experiments/
14:17:19 [wseltzer]
s/rrsagent, please make record member until cleaned up//
14:17:39 [plh]
ack florian
14:17:51 [fantasai]
florian: I thin what's in process is neither too much nor enough, it's outdated
14:18:03 [fantasai]
florian: I think we action me to update
14:18:13 [fantasai]
florian: and we can point at whereever we're maintaining the dismissal thing or whatever
14:18:29 [jeff__]
q+ to florian
14:18:32 [fantasai]
florian: eventually the Process should be updated with it, but for now let's just stick an issue in the Process to mark as Work in Progress
14:18:34 [jeff__]
+1 to florian
14:18:34 [plh]
ack jeff
14:18:34 [Zakim]
jeff__, you wanted to florian
14:18:36 [jeff__]
q-
14:18:38 [plh]
q+
14:18:41 [plh]
ack plh
14:18:53 [fantasai]
plh: Fine with putting an issue and deferring conversation
14:19:17 [fantasai]
plh: 2 questions, if we defer, should be deferring after TPAC. But that might push us later into 2023
14:19:23 [fantasai]
florian: I think this is up to AB
14:19:34 [fantasai]
florian: They need to say what rules we adopt
14:19:52 [fantasai]
plh: Was going to ask if we're right group to discuss these things
14:20:04 [fantasai]
florian: We're the right group to draft text, but the AB needs to say what to draft
14:20:26 [fantasai]
plh: The AB is super busy...
14:20:40 [fantasai]
florian: I'm in both groups, and we have quite a few members here who are regulars of the AB
14:20:46 [jeff__]
q+
14:20:51 [fantasai]
florian: I don't feel this group is the right group to draw conclusions from the experiments
14:20:52 [plh]
ack jeff
14:21:08 [fantasai]
jeff__: I think that for the entire Process, it's managed by the AB, and they delegate a lot of the work to us
14:21:18 [fantasai]
jeff__: if they want to weigh in they can
14:21:23 [fantasai]
jeff__: We work with the best information we have
14:21:38 [fantasai]
plh: Any objection to defer until after TPAC this conversation, to allow experiments to proceed/
14:21:50 [fantasai]
[discussion of timing]
14:22:06 [fantasai]
plh: if AB doesn't get back to us by TPAC, we should try to make progress ourselves
14:22:27 [fantasai]
florian: Meanwhile, action me to add an issue to Process
14:22:36 [fantasai]
ACTION Florian: Add issue in Process about recusal/dismissal
14:23:37 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:23:37 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Let the Team rather than the Director handle progression on TR -- taken up [from plh]
14:23:43 [fantasai]
plh: good at deferring things today...
14:23:52 [fantasai]
Topic: Let the Team handle progression on TR
14:23:57 [plh]
https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/586
14:24:00 [fantasai]
florian: fantasai and I looked at this
14:24:07 [plh]
Github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/586
14:24:20 [fantasai]
florian: There was request from Léonie that when Team moves things forward with weak justifications, Team needs to document it
14:24:23 [fantasai]
florian: this was already in the text
14:24:47 [fantasai]
florian: Also comment from dsinger wrt Team approving advancement on the REC track, not clearly tied to criteria in Process
14:24:58 [fantasai]
florian: Director could block for any reason, not just procedural
14:25:17 [fantasai]
florian: which wouldn't be fine in case of Team, so dsinger requested clarification that the Team is expected to assess the quality of the spec
14:25:23 [fantasai]
florian: and not based on personal opinions
14:25:35 [fantasai]
florian: so text has been updated to tie their approval to such requirements
14:25:43 [fantasai]
florian: to avoid making it seem the Team can block based on their own feeling
14:26:13 [fantasai]
florian: There was also something we noticed: a sentence saying that the Director (now Team) had the ability, without WG's approval, to take a REC-track document and move it down, e.g. CR to WD
14:26:27 [fantasai]
florian: There is the ability to forcefully do this, and while unlikely to abused, felt more comfortable under just the Director than just the Team
14:26:38 [fantasai]
florian: so we added the fact that if the Team wants to do this, it needs the approval of the AB and TAG
14:26:46 [fantasai]
florian: so that's a new idea for your consideration
14:27:03 [fantasai]
florian: I think if we need ability to forcefully downgrade a document, should get some approval
14:27:13 [fantasai]
plh: We can review at the next meeting
14:27:17 [fantasai]
plh: Any questions about this?
14:27:54 [weiler]
scribe+
14:27:57 [fantasai]
fantasai: Just recommend to review the PR commit by commit, because we both changed and moved some text, easier to review move and changes separately
14:28:19 [fantasai]
plh: Encourage Ralph to look at this, since the Team is functionally Ralph in a lot of those cases
14:28:43 [fantasai]
florian: PR isn't intended to change anything that we're actually doing, should be compatible with existing practice
14:28:57 [fantasai]
weiler: ?? question in that thread, Team's decision are objectable?
14:29:00 [fantasai]
florian: yes
14:29:05 [fantasai]
weiler: what about Director decision?
14:29:12 [fantasai]
florian: Decisions -- all decisions -- are objectable
14:29:27 [fantasai]
plh: New process clarifies that
14:30:02 [fantasai]
florian: So goal is to land it next time?
14:30:03 [fantasai]
plh: yep
14:30:07 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:30:07 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Maturity Level is a weird term -- taken up [from plh]
14:30:13 [fantasai]
Topic: Maturity Level is a weird term
14:30:19 [weiler]
scribe+
14:30:52 [weiler]
fantasai: I filed this because we never use "maturity level" outside of the process doc, because it's so awkward. People use other terms.
14:31:17 [weiler]
... I want us to pick a term than can be used comfortably outside the process.
14:31:28 [Ralph]
https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/455
14:31:32 [florian]
q+
14:31:37 [weiler]
... I recommend "maturity stages"
14:31:42 [Ralph]
Github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/455
14:31:53 [plh]
ack florian
14:32:06 [weiler]
... this avoids conflict with "level of spec"
14:32:38 [weiler]
florian: I don't have a strong opinion, but if we can land something , great.
14:32:44 [weiler]
plh: prefer to not bikeshed this here.
14:32:55 [weiler]
... May I defer to florian and fantasai?
14:33:37 [weiler]
fantasai: i proposed something. if you weren't paying attention, you might not even notice the change.
14:34:01 [plh]
q+
14:34:15 [plh]
ack plh
14:34:26 [weiler]
plh: my sense is thiat this isn't worth it.
14:34:47 [weiler]
fantasai: the advantage is that people are obviously uncomfortable using "level".
14:35:32 [weiler]
q+
14:35:44 [weiler]
florian: this is used all over the place outside the process.
14:35:44 [fantasai]
plh: HOw about make a PR and we'll discuss it
14:35:45 [plh]
ack weiler
14:35:56 [fantasai]
fantasai: That's a lot of work to get rejected if ppl don't like it
14:36:04 [fantasai]
fantasai: decide the term, and then we'll make a PR
14:36:14 [fantasai]
s/outside/inside/
14:36:26 [fantasai]
weiler: I wonder if the issue is not the term, but that our ppl don' care about the different levels?
14:36:34 [fantasai]
weiler: Not the term, but why do we have stages?
14:36:47 [fantasai]
weiler: and in that case why bother
14:36:59 [weiler]
fantasai: people do talk about them, but maybe with term "status".
14:37:07 [plh]
https://www.w3.org/pubrules/doc/rules/?profile=REC also uses "maturity level"
14:37:15 [weiler]
weiler: fine, then go paint the bikeshed.
14:37:19 [fantasai]
plh, because it's closely linked to the Process
14:37:32 [weiler]
plh: then go propose it and give it a month
14:37:39 [weiler]
fantasai: I did it 2 years ago.
14:37:48 [weiler]
plh: people pushed back then
14:38:00 [weiler]
florian: I don't think "wait" works. we did that.
14:38:11 [weiler]
... maybe "here's the action absent objections"
14:38:22 [weiler]
plh: fine, so how long to allow for objections? July 20?
14:39:32 [weiler]
plh: done.
14:39:39 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:39:39 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- TAG Appointment: Review the proposal before sending it to the AB -- taken up [from plh]
14:39:57 [fantasai]
Topic: TAG Appointments
14:40:05 [fantasai]
florian: The general idea, we have a TAG election, and it elects part of the TAG
14:40:14 [fantasai]
florian: We used to have 3 ppl appointed by Director, but we won't have a Director
14:40:17 [fantasai]
florian: so what do we do?
14:40:30 [fantasai]
florian: Current idea is to form a TAG Appointment Committee to do the appointing
14:40:30 [plh]
Github: https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/608
14:40:44 [fantasai]
florian: currently it's formed during the election, and makes a decision after the election
14:40:49 [fantasai]
florian: in order to be able to balance the elected TAG
14:41:00 [fantasai]
florian: That part isn't too complicated, what's complicated is who is on that committee?
14:41:10 [fantasai]
florian: We had a notion that it would be a subset of TAG and subset of chairs
14:41:23 [fantasai]
florian: fantasai observed that subsetting chairs is time-consuming, and maybe we can just take them all
14:41:35 [weiler]
q+
14:41:46 [fantasai]
florian: that gets us a broad community, can more easily see what expertise is missing
14:42:01 [fantasai]
florian: So this gets us a simplified process for setting up the committee
14:42:22 [fantasai]
weiler: So you think it's easier to get consensus in a larger group than to run random selection?
14:42:34 [fantasai]
weiler: I think the question is, what's likely to get us to a better outcome
14:42:46 [fantasai]
florian: getting consensus in a large group can take awhile
14:43:03 [fantasai]
florian: subsetting is not just the random selection, you have to see if the selected ppl are willing to show up
14:43:11 [fantasai]
florian: so you need to run the process multiple time
14:43:21 [fantasai]
florian: ...
14:43:24 [Ralph]
-> https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+tag+label%3A%22Director-free%3A+TAG+Appointments%22 related issues labeled "Director-free: TAG Appointments"
14:43:31 [fantasai]
florian: not conceptually hard, but it takes awhile to get to an actual set of people
14:43:40 [fantasai]
weiler: I assume we can make that work
14:43:45 [plh]
q+
14:43:48 [plh]
ack weiler
14:43:51 [plh]
ack plh
14:43:57 [fantasai]
florian: That was the initial assumption, is why we wrote it that way
14:44:13 [fantasai]
plh: I think I agree with Sam, easier to find consensus
14:44:25 [fantasai]
plh: Also this would change the balance of the committee, because only one member of the Team
14:44:33 [fantasai]
plh: and many chairs
14:44:57 [fantasai]
plh: so I tend to agree with Sam, go through the pain of selecting 4 chairs
14:45:04 [fantasai]
plh: so that we can save time getting consensus
14:45:15 [Ralph]
scribe+
14:45:34 [florian]
[by the way, the suggestion from fantasai I was commenting about is https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/608]
14:45:38 [Ralph]
fantasai: I made the proposal from watching the Council experiment process run
14:45:57 [Ralph]
... I agree it's harder to get consensus in a larger group
14:46:15 [Ralph]
... it's easier to have some kinds of discussions in a smaller group
14:46:16 [jeff]
jeff has joined #w3process
14:46:49 [Ralph]
... I was also concerned about the Team participant being drowned out
14:47:07 [fantasai]
weiler: I've been on the IETF NomCom, 7 people appointing 3
14:47:14 [fantasai]
weiler: It's a lot of work, it eats a lot of time
14:47:30 [fantasai]
weiler: it's going to be simpler here, fact that you're selecting ppl for the same position (TAG member) simplifies it
14:47:37 [fantasai]
weiler: but nom matter what it's a lot of work
14:47:53 [fantasai]
weiler: From IETF experience, some things I might tweak in how you do it to address florian's concern around e.g. are they willing to
14:47:58 [fantasai]
weiler: but I feel confident that we can make it work
14:48:25 [fantasai]
weiler: It's not going to be "meet twice for 2hrs and we're done", but not a bad process, probably a good one
14:48:41 [fantasai]
weiler: what is the question in front of us today?
14:49:01 [fantasai]
florian: Question from fantasai is should we a) adopt immediatley b) reject immediatly c) ask more people to weigh in
14:49:19 [fantasai]
florian: The version in the document is with subsetting, and issue #608 is about removing subsetting
14:49:44 [fantasai]
florian: My feeling is this group leans against #608, but maybe give more airtime outside the group?
14:49:54 [fantasai]
weiler: We're looking at 80-100 people, it would not be workable
14:50:09 [fantasai]
weiler: you're not going to get consensus, and you won't get the kind of confidentiality you need
14:50:13 [fantasai]
weiler: I would kill it right now
14:50:20 [fantasai]
weiler: You cannot do this with 40 people, even
14:50:31 [fantasai]
florian: fantasai, willing ot let go?
14:50:36 [Ralph]
<ralph> +1; unworkable in practice
14:50:37 [fantasai]
fantasai: yes, I defer to weiler's experience
14:51:00 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Close no change
14:51:30 [plh]
https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Director-free%3A+TAG+Appointments%22
14:51:36 [fantasai]
florian: We do have a bunch of other issues about the TAC, I haven't looked at them in awhile
14:51:41 [fantasai]
florian: encourage everyone to have a look
14:51:51 [fantasai]
florian: otherwise, time we revisited those
14:51:51 [weiler]
s/IETF NomCom,/IETF NomCom, which is 10 people (+ 5 not voting) appointing ~12; this is/
14:53:00 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:53:00 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- Process 2022 issues -- taken up [from plh]
14:53:12 [fantasai]
Topic: Process 2022 Triage
14:53:32 [fantasai]
plh: Looking for volunteers to prepare more of these for discussion
14:53:39 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:53:39 [Zakim]
agendum 7 was just opened, plh
14:53:45 [plh]
zakim, close agendum 7
14:53:45 [Zakim]
agendum 7, Process 2022 issues, closed
14:53:46 [Zakim]
I see nothing remaining on the agenda
14:53:49 [plh]
zakim, move to next agendum
14:53:49 [Zakim]
I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, plh
14:54:24 [fantasai]
plh: 486 will be on next agenda
14:54:35 [fantasai]
plh: Thanks everyone, let's continue next time
14:54:38 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
14:55:16 [wseltzer]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:55:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/22-w3process-minutes.html wseltzer
15:00:14 [Ralph]
zakim, bye
15:00:14 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been weiler, fantasai, wseltzer, plh, florian, jeff, Ralph
15:00:14 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #w3process
15:59:01 [TallTed]
TallTed has joined #w3process