13:27:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:27:01 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/06/16-i18n-irc
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13:27:12 <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
13:27:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:27:18 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:27:18 <trackbot> Date: 16 June 2022
13:27:21 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/4e5482e3-94c9-4875-abb7-1bf44c66bdf9/20220616T150000
13:27:21 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:27:21 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
13:27:21 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
13:27:24 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
13:27:26 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR Review
13:27:28 <agendabot> agenda+ Pending Issue Review
13:27:30 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
13:27:31 <agendabot> agenda+ WICG/manifest-incubations review
13:27:33 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
13:28:17 <addison> agenda+ RTL scripts update
13:28:34 <addison> agenda+ agenda+ Add commentary to 9.3 Working with personal names
13:28:48 <addison> agenda+ WebGPU
13:29:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/16-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:43:05 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
13:53:53 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n
13:55:16 <addison> present+ Addison
14:02:09 <addison> present+ Richard, Atsushi, Felix
14:02:11 <xfq_> xfq_ has joined #i18n
14:02:21 <xfq__> xfq__ has joined #i18n
14:02:38 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #i18n
14:04:06 <addison> regrets+ Bert
14:04:27 <addison> present+ Fuqiao
14:04:46 <addison> agenda?
14:05:12 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:05:12 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:05:23 <xfq_> scribe: xfq_
14:05:45 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:05:45 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:05:53 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
14:06:50 <xfq_> close ACTION-1157
14:06:50 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-1157.
14:07:14 <xfq_> atsushi: jlreq-d repo created
14:07:32 <xfq_> close ACTION-1158
14:07:32 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-1158.
14:08:16 <xfq_> close ACTION-1161
14:08:16 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-1161.
14:08:23 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
14:08:23 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:08:55 <addison> xfq: trying to use netlify to preview changes to repos
14:09:05 <addison> ... only did i18n-drafts and specdev
14:09:28 <addison> ... previously we used pr-preview, but it cannot handle the changes to images or styles or scripts or webfonts
14:09:33 <addison> ... netlify can handle this
14:09:41 <addison> ... doesn't support diff
14:10:00 <addison> ... for specs plan is to use both; pr-preview for diff and netlify for preview
14:10:14 <addison> ... and netlify needed for web pages
14:11:02 <xfq_> scribe+ addison
14:12:23 <addison> agenda?
14:12:25 <xfq_> addison: the preview is better than before
14:12:29 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
14:12:29 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:12:37 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
14:13:02 <xfq_> addison: DCAT 3?
14:13:10 <addison> agenda?
14:13:14 <xfq_> atsushi: still reviewing
14:13:48 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 8
14:13:48 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- RTL scripts update -- taken up [from addison]
14:14:00 <addison> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2022AprJun/0119.html
14:14:14 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/399
14:14:24 <addison> https://deploy-preview-399--i18n-drafts.netlify.app/questions/qa-scripts.en
14:14:58 <xfq_> r12a: this is quite a big change
14:15:12 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-scripts.en.html
14:15:17 <xfq_> ... if you look at the original ^
14:15:44 <xfq_> ... if you look at the old article, you'll see the question used to be "What directions are commonly localized languages written in?"
14:16:03 <xfq_> ... if you look at the Netlify version, it's "What languages are written with right-to-left scripts?"
14:16:35 <xfq_> ... immediately after the answer there's a ToC
14:16:39 <xfq_> ... I removed the ToC
14:17:09 <xfq_> ... languages are never RTL, scripts are RTL
14:17:28 <xfq_> ... you have this very looong table
14:18:06 <xfq_> ... total number of speakers from SIL Ethnologue
14:18:42 <xfq_> ... grand total of 2,305,048,719 potential users of RTL scripts
14:18:59 <xfq_> ... and these are just modern languages
14:19:34 <xfq_> ... and there's a paragraph at the bottom about historical usage of scripts
14:19:58 <xfq_> ... I might have to rearrange the table
14:20:11 <xfq_> ... in alphabetical order before publishing
14:20:42 <xfq_> ... this was in response to @@ saying the new scripts are not mentioned in this article
14:21:03 <xfq_> s/@@/Craig Cornelius/
14:23:09 <xfq_> addison: any objections to publishing this?
14:23:16 <xfq_> [silence]
14:23:27 <addison> action: richard: publish updated rtl languages article
14:23:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1162 - Publish updated rtl languages article [on Richard Ishida - due 2022-06-23].
14:23:50 <addison> agenda?
14:24:46 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 6
14:24:46 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- WICG/manifest-incubations review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:25:15 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3As%3Awicg-manifest-incubations
14:25:34 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1554
14:25:57 <xfq_> addison: as an introduction, this group has a proposal
14:26:07 <xfq_> ... to add some stuff in the web app manifest
14:26:18 <xfq_> ... adding translations to the manifest format
14:26:55 <xfq_> ... the first tissue is they don't define how the matching is done
14:27:48 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1555
14:27:53 <xfq_> xfq: I guess because it's still a draft proposal
14:28:06 <xfq_> addison: any objections?
14:28:09 <xfq_> [silence]
14:28:34 <xfq_> addison: the next issue
14:28:52 <xfq_> ... they match the translations according to the order of the items
14:29:51 <xfq_> ... if the document gets serialised the order might be wrong
14:30:57 <xfq_> xfq: why would serialisation change the order?
14:31:34 <xfq_> addison: think of your favourite JSON serialization library
14:31:47 <xfq_> ... does it change the order during serialisation?
14:31:56 <xfq_> xfq: I guess that depends on the implementation
14:32:00 <xfq_> addison: yeah
14:32:14 <JcK> present+ JcK
14:33:49 <xfq_> atsushi: I worked with some localisation tools like Pootle@@?
14:34:15 <xfq_> ... @@
14:34:34 <atsushi> pontoon -> https://pontoon.mozilla.org/
14:35:18 <xfq_> s/Pootle@@?/Pontoon/
14:35:36 <atsushi> +1 to go
14:35:38 <r12a> +1
14:35:41 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1556
14:35:54 <xfq_> addison: last one
14:36:15 <xfq_> ... they don't associate dir with each translation
14:36:25 <atsushi> +1
14:36:33 <xfq_> ... they only have a file level dir
14:36:52 <r12a> https://github.com/gpuweb/gpuweb/issues/2780#issuecomment-1157495027
14:37:28 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 10
14:37:28 <Zakim> agendum 10 -- WebGPU -- taken up [from addison]
14:37:48 <addison> https://github.com/gpuweb/gpuweb/issues/2780#issuecomment-1157495027
14:38:38 <xfq_> https://github.com/gpuweb/gpuweb/issues/2780#issuecomment-1141227619
14:40:01 <xfq_> [xfq introduces the issue]
14:40:56 <xfq_> r12a: https://github.com/gpuweb/gpuweb/issues/2780#issuecomment-1141227619 mentions "switch the language of error messages and other strings after device creation", but it's not related to this issue, which is about the lang & dir of the string itself
14:41:05 <xfq_> ... even if it's not changed
14:42:05 <xfq_> addison: each message item should have their own lang & dir
14:42:16 <xfq_> ... it's ok to have a default
14:42:27 <xfq_> r12a: what we want is to let them do both
14:42:43 <xfq_> ... they only need to specify the strings that are problematic
14:42:50 <xfq_> ... other strings should use the default
14:45:41 <xfq_> r12a: you need to have the declaration at the top of the file and have the possibility of using and override on every string
14:45:57 <xfq_> ... not related to change the language
14:47:45 <xfq_> JcK: when do we need to tag these strings?
14:48:10 <xfq_> r12a: like numbers
14:49:07 <xfq_> JcK: the other great example is interntaional domain names
14:50:07 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 9
14:50:07 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- agenda+ Add commentary to 9.3 Working with personal names -- taken up [from addison]
14:50:16 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/72#discussion_r899116063
14:50:40 <r12a> https://deploy-preview-72--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/
14:51:02 <r12a> https://deploy-preview-72--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#loc_names
14:51:26 <xfq_> r12a: I took the text from the article
14:51:38 <xfq_> ... there's a thread in github
14:52:07 <xfq_> ... addison I think i"m mostly OK
14:52:16 <xfq_> s/i"m/I'm/
14:53:08 <addison> https://deploy-preview-72--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#loc_names_global_audience
14:53:33 <xfq_> r12a: my action, as I understood, was to provide a list of names people could just pick up and use
14:54:13 <xfq_> ... what they need to know is what these weird names come from
14:54:29 <xfq_> ... most of the lists of people's names are very European centric
14:54:44 <xfq_> ... maybe have Japan and Russia and Turkey and Israel
14:55:07 <xfq_> ... but really we want African names, Southeast Asian names, and so on and so forth
14:55:18 <xfq_> ... but for Southeast Asia and China
14:55:34 <xfq_> ... I ended up looking at Wikipedia
14:57:18 <xfq_> addison: when we talked to security folks
14:57:23 <xfq_> ... they use Alice and Bob
14:58:35 <xfq_> r12a: I guess what I was wondering was
14:58:59 <xfq_> ... maybe we could define regions
14:59:22 <xfq_> ... I'll ignore North America, but add South America
14:59:27 <xfq_> addison: Africa
14:59:33 <xfq_> r12a: China, Japan
15:00:17 <xfq_> JcK: South America they have cool indigenous names
15:00:46 <xfq_> r12a: not by country, but by large geographical region
15:02:11 <xfq_> ... @@
15:02:50 <xfq_> r12a: I'm not dealing with family names
15:03:08 <xfq_> ... in Thailand, they use nicknames
15:03:23 <xfq_> addison: seems like a lot of work
15:03:32 <xfq_> ... we're writing a baby name finder
15:03:43 <xfq_> atsushi: Vietnamese names
15:03:57 <xfq_> ... they use pronunciation clusters
15:04:11 <xfq_> ... some of my friends have 3 clusters, some of my friends have 4 clusters
15:04:25 <xfq_> ... might be interesting for western people
15:04:40 <xfq_> r12a: same with Chinese names
15:04:50 <xfq_> ... starts getting complicated
15:05:09 <xfq_> ... at least I need a bit more time
15:05:36 <xfq_> addison: we have three options
15:05:39 <xfq_> ... 1. @@
15:06:57 <xfq_> ... do we want to make a list?
15:07:42 <xfq_> JcK: i think what we're trying to do is correct
15:08:10 <xfq_> ... @@
15:09:04 <xfq_> r12a: and there are cultures where you're not supposed to use somebody's name
15:09:30 <xfq_> addison: I can make a proposal
15:12:52 <addison> Topic: AOB?
15:16:38 <xfq_> rrsagent, make minutes
15:16:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/16-i18n-minutes.html xfq_
16:02:06 <addison> zakim, who is here?
16:02:08 <Zakim> Present: Addison, Richard, Atsushi, Felix, Fuqiao, JcK
16:02:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see JcK, Zakim, RRSAgent, addison, r12a, atsushi, fantasai, cwilso, bigbluehat, hsivonen, sangwhan, astearns, hadleybeeman, koji, csarven, agendabot, Mek, eemeli, Bert,
16:02:08 <Zakim> ... florian, trackbot
16:02:19 <addison> zakim, bye
16:02:19 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Richard, Atsushi, Felix, Fuqiao, JcK
16:02:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
16:02:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/16-i18n-minutes.html addison