14:01:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
14:01:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/06/15-wot-td-irc
14:01:46 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
14:07:12 <cris_> cris_ has joined #wot-td
14:09:48 <McCool_> McCool_ has joined #wot-td
14:11:59 <Ege> scribenick: McCool_
14:12:29 <McCool_> topic: Minutes
14:12:49 <McCool_> ege: review 05-25; old, many cancellations, testfest...
14:13:14 <McCool_> ... discussion of improving SVG figures
14:13:30 <McCool_> ... discussion of deriving ids from TMs
14:14:31 <McCool_> ... please expand ca into a full name
14:15:25 <kaz> i|review|-> https://www.w3.org/2022/05/25-wot-td-minutes.html May-25|
14:16:02 <McCool_> ... JSON version 7; vs validation; discussion in profiles
14:16:14 <McCool_> ege: documents themselves are fairly clear
14:17:22 <McCool_> ege: fixed a compatibility problem, issue 1510
14:17:40 <McCool_> ... finally, had a resolution to publish a CR candidate
14:18:12 <McCool_> mm: suggest we also update the schedule today, now there is a CR candidate in flight
14:18:29 <McCool_> ege: any comments on the minutes?
14:18:42 <McCool_> ... no objections, let's publish.
14:18:59 <McCool_> topic: Binding Templates
14:19:09 <McCool_> subtopic: updates
14:19:29 <McCool_> ege: now have netify previews, so not only root gets rendered
14:19:50 <McCool_> ... but needs coc and license document
14:20:18 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#June_15.2C_2022
14:20:47 <McCool_> mm: note that repo has automation now
14:21:18 <McCool_> ege: also need to run a script...
14:21:28 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/163
14:21:40 <McCool_> mm: perhaps some instructions on how to update
14:21:46 <kaz> q+
14:22:28 <McCool_> ege: this PR itself is just the coc and license for netlify; and this is automatic
14:22:53 <McCool_> ege: created issue #163 to follow up on documentation
14:23:13 <kaz> i/created/kaz: agree with McCool, and we should document how to use it/
14:23:24 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/156
14:23:24 <McCool_> subtopic: MQTT Binding, PR #156
14:23:25 <kaz> i/kaz:/scribenick: kaz/
14:23:27 <kaz> ack k
14:23:46 <kaz> i/created/scribenick: McCool_/
14:24:08 <McCool_> ege: think we need to talk about the use of retain
14:24:19 <kaz> s/subtopic: MQTT Binding, PR #156//
14:24:23 <kaz> i/https/subtopic: MQTT Binding, PR #156/
14:24:28 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
14:24:36 <McCool_> ... what does it mean, it to be set, or IS set?
14:24:52 <kaz> s/156/156 PR 156 - Improve the mqtt protocol binding template/
14:24:56 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:25:00 <McCool_> cris: maybe better to not include, is a side effect of using readproperty
14:25:01 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:25:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:25:35 <McCool_> ... but maybe have to consider how to deal with short-lived events
14:25:58 <McCool_> ... this was one reason I added this; might be some corner cases where it is not needed
14:26:28 <McCool_> ege: may also be cases where published messages to not change value
14:26:33 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Michael_McCool, Tomoaki_Mizushima
14:26:37 <kaz> chair: Ege
14:26:40 <McCool_> ... maybe need a chapter that explains this
14:26:43 <kaz> regrets: Sebastian
14:27:04 <McCool_> ... example needs to be improved, show two forms
14:27:07 <McCool_> ... or three
14:27:13 <McCool_> ... to show the different cases
14:27:33 <McCool_> ... putting multiple operations in the same form is tricky
14:28:13 <McCool_> cris: probably better to have different forms
14:28:28 <McCool_> ege: and we should recommend people separate them to avoid ambiguity
14:28:30 <kaz> i|think we need to|-> https://deploy-preview-156--wot-binding-templates.netlify.app preview|
14:28:43 <kaz> q+
14:28:57 <McCool_> ege: another issue is using href in combination with topic and filter
14:29:19 <McCool_> cris: also some formatting issues due to changes in ontology file
14:29:35 <McCool_> ... anyway, I added these fields to follow spec for MQTT closely
14:30:03 <McCool_> ... then it becomes clear where topics and filters go
14:30:20 <McCool_> ... can you be specific about what should be changed?
14:30:31 <McCool_> ege: I think just more information about where topic and filter apply
14:30:42 <McCool_> ... needs to be more explicit
14:31:03 <McCool_> ... e.g. in subscription, should not include topic, etc.
14:31:24 <McCool_> cris: and URL scheme is just for broker
14:31:26 <kaz> q?
14:31:39 <McCool_> ege: and say URL is used for connection request
14:31:42 <McCool_> q+
14:31:43 <McCool_> q?
14:32:18 <McCool_> kaz: question, main purpose of binding template, main document
14:32:38 <McCool_> ... main doc lists set of protocols
14:32:58 <McCool_> ... http as a "core" protocol, others as "bindings"
14:33:20 <McCool_> ege: binding is not about one to another, is how to use one
14:33:35 <McCool_> ... so not about binding mqtt and http, but using mqtt in TDs
14:33:50 <McCool_> ... binding templates overview is not enough
14:33:59 <McCool_> ege: agree, I am working on that
14:34:26 <Mizushima> -> https://deploy-preview-156--wot-binding-templates.netlify.app/bindings/protocols/mqtt/index.html MQTT Binding Template
14:35:13 <Mizushima> +1 kaz
14:35:19 <McCool_> mm: I also find it odd that http is built-in to TD but others are extensions
14:35:36 <McCool_> ege: ideally next TD 2.0 everything will be in an extension
14:36:03 <kaz> s/http as a/we should remember the Profile spec handles https as a/
14:36:26 <McCool_> mm: also, minor point, avoid refs in abstract, can be taken out of context, then refs will be broken
14:36:30 <McCool_> cris: sure
14:36:54 <McCool_> ... was in older version, not really being dealt with right now
14:36:59 <kaz> s/... binding templates/kaz: I know that point, but the current description within the binding temp/
14:37:26 <McCool_> ege: (eg captures some notes on PR #156)
14:38:24 <McCool_> ege: looking ahead a bit, we have a few other PRs on CoAP, etc.
14:38:36 <McCool_> ... would be good to be consistent, use the v suffix, etc.
14:38:52 <McCool_> ege: don't like it, but it avoids confusion with the protocol name
14:39:34 <McCool_> ... should use cov, not coap; otherwise prefix looks like a URI scheme
14:39:59 <McCool_> cris: also should say that in case of collisions, longer prefixes can be used.
14:40:15 <McCool_> ege: (captures notes in issue 120)
14:42:39 <McCool_> suptopic: CoAP issues
14:43:04 <McCool_> ege: discussion of composite things, multicasting in CoAP
14:43:44 <McCool_> ... can be used to for, example, turn off all lamps
14:45:16 <McCool_> mm: multiple issues here; also security, discovery
14:45:34 <McCool_> ... but I think core issue is a "group affordance", URI scheme...
14:46:00 <McCool_> ege: for future work, just want to table
14:46:10 <McCool_> topic: TD
14:46:24 <McCool_> subtopic: Update
14:46:44 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+no%3Alabel
14:46:49 <McCool_> ege: in github, is feature to look at unlabelled issue; I went through issue and added some labels
14:47:18 <McCool_> ... now have an action to add a "needs triage" label automatically if there is not a label
14:47:22 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+sort%3Aupdated-desc
14:47:39 <McCool_> ... can see some old issues getting updated
14:47:56 <McCool_> ege: also identified a lot of issues that can be closed
14:48:20 <McCool_> ... probably
14:48:28 <McCool_> mm: could send an email to close in a week
14:48:38 <McCool_> ege: or just close and people can re-open
14:49:23 <McCool_> ege: need to do work on CR static draft
14:49:34 <McCool_> mm: to be clear, I am not working on this, only on IR
14:49:47 <McCool_> subtopic: PR 1532
14:50:01 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1532/files
14:50:06 <McCool_> ege: is fix to JSON schemas for TM for required and enum
14:50:33 <McCool_> ... enum was not allowing placeholders in TM
14:52:07 <kaz> s/CR static draft/CR-cand static draft/
14:52:47 <kaz> s/ege: need/kaz: we need/
14:53:03 <McCool_> ... main thing that was updated was the TM
14:53:08 <Ege> q?
14:53:14 <kaz> ack k
14:53:14 <McCool_> ack m
14:53:31 <kaz> rrsagent, make draft minutes
14:53:31 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make draft minutes', kaz.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:53:33 <McCool_> ege: (merges after fixing conflict)
14:53:47 <McCool_> subtopic: PR #1517
14:53:55 <kaz> q+
14:53:56 <McCool_> ege: Daniel not here, will skip for now
14:54:24 <kaz> ack k
14:54:33 <McCool_> kaz: title of this should be "Create CR Candidate WD"
14:54:37 <McCool_> ege: ok, changed
14:54:48 <kaz> s/rrsagent, make draft minutes//
14:54:54 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:54:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:54:57 <McCool_> subtopic: PR #1501
14:55:27 <McCool_> ege: todo.csv takes place of this, and also does at-risk markup, so can close without merging
14:57:05 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1532/files|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1532 Allow placeholder for required and enum in TMs|
14:57:24 <McCool_> mm: note however we do need to explictly document at-risk item in sotd section
14:57:58 <kaz> i|todo.csv|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1501 PR 1501 - WIP: Add at-risk hints|
14:58:03 <McCool_> ... but can do in a couple of weeks after we clean up the todos
14:59:10 <McCool_> subtopic: extra asserts
15:01:06 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1527 Issue 1527 - [Pipeline] Extra-asserts and depends.csv should be automatically generated
15:03:46 <McCool_> mm: ideally, but hard; suggest we do it manually for now
15:05:18 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1527#issuecomment-1156588286 Ege's comments
15:05:21 <kaz> subtopic: Issue 1511
15:05:48 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1511 Issue 1511 - Restructuring td-json-open assertions
15:07:29 <McCool_> mm: suggest we reach out to internationalization people
15:07:59 <McCool_> ... is redundant, so how can we clean up to make it easier to manage testing while still acheiving objectives
15:08:18 <McCool_> subtopic: issue 1439
15:08:49 <McCool_> ege: oauth-other-flows, but seems to be gone now
15:09:00 <McCool_> mm: I think I fixed this when revising IR
15:09:06 <McCool_> ege: ok, let's close
15:09:45 <McCool_> subtopic: issue 733
15:09:51 <McCool_> ege: very old, but still open
15:10:15 <McCool_> ... also 732, 735; same issue
15:10:22 <McCool_> ... closing all
15:10:30 <kaz> i|oauth-o|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1439 Issue 1439 - OAuth2 Assertion: other-flow assertion is removed from spec but visible in implementation report|
15:11:04 <kaz> i|very old|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/733 Issue 733 - [At-Risk] Implementations of PSKSecurityScheme needed|
15:11:05 <McCool_> subtopic: issue 888
15:11:37 <kaz> i|888|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/732 Issue 732 - [At-Risk] Implementations of CertSecurityScheme needed|
15:12:20 <kaz> i|888|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/735 Issue 735 - [At-Risk] Implementations of PublicSecurityScheme needed|
15:12:45 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/888 Issue 888 - [question][behavior][testing] Should writing to an observable property trigger new values being pushed
15:12:58 <McCool_> ege: does writing a property trigger an observe update?
15:13:30 <McCool_> mm: TDs are descriptive, if impl does not do what the op says it does there should be a different op
15:17:00 <McCool_> ... but the definition of op should perhaps not say "when", which implies immediately, but should add a note that some implementations may defer or queue updates...
15:17:12 <McCool_> ege: let me take a note about this
15:18:28 <McCool_> mm: we *could* add an op for "strictobserve" but could also use an event if you want something different than eventual consistency, which is what observe is for
15:18:39 <McCool_> topic: CR transition
15:19:00 <McCool_> ege: labelled a number of issues that are needed for the CR transition
15:20:07 <McCool_> ege: easy one is missing keywords in assertions
15:20:12 <kaz> subtopic: Issue 1523
15:20:23 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1523 Issue 1523 - Missing RFC-2119 Keywords in Assertions
15:22:07 <McCool_> subtopic: 1519
15:22:19 <McCool_> ege: use of "Form"
15:22:33 <kaz> i|1519|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1523#issuecomment-1156610002 Ege's comments (use SHOULD and MUST)|
15:22:53 <McCool_> ... this used to be defined somewhere; but also in HTML spec
15:23:19 <kaz> i|use of|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1519 Issue 1519 - ReSpec Error - Form definition|
15:24:20 <McCool_> mm: suggest link to Form section of TD spec for this
15:24:50 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1519#issuecomment-1156613384 Ege's comments
15:24:57 <kaz> subtopic: Issue 1520
15:25:22 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1520 Issue 1520 - ReSpec Error - Reference "[ACE-OAuth]" not found.
15:26:48 <McCool_> mm: probably should be RF9200; was published as an actual RFC
15:28:42 <kaz> s/RF9200/RFC 9200/
15:29:17 <McCool_> ... not in specref yet, will have to make a local definition
15:29:56 <McCool_> subtopic: issue 1518
15:30:02 <McCool_> ege: respec bugs...
15:30:23 <kaz> i|1518|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1520#issuecomment-1156619035 Ege's comments|
15:30:30 <McCool_> ... so we can normatively ref an informative spec, but respec complains
15:30:58 <kaz> i|respec|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1518 Issue 1518 - ReSpec Warnings - Normative reference defined in informative document|
15:31:34 <kaz> q+
15:31:42 <McCool_> mm: we agreed to do this, so issue is how to get respec to stop bugging us about it
15:32:20 <McCool_> kaz: suggest we talk to PLH and Systeam
15:33:28 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1343
15:33:28 <McCool_> subtopic: issue 1343
15:33:36 <McCool_> ege: think it has been solved already
15:34:20 <McCool_> mm: any instances in the spec of the old URL?
15:34:25 <McCool_> ege: let me check...
15:35:12 <McCool_> ... does seem to be use of 2019 in some of the URLs
15:35:35 <McCool_> ... I think the current issue is fine, will close, but will open another one about the 2019 URLs
15:36:06 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1540
15:37:07 <McCool_> subtopic: issue 953
15:37:28 <McCool_> mm: this has been resolved; we are using "authorization" for "device"
15:37:41 <McCool_> ege: closing
15:37:55 <McCool_> subtopic: issue 926
15:37:59 <McCool_> mm: also done
15:38:01 <McCool_> ege: closing
15:38:13 <McCool_> subtopic: issue 1243
15:38:21 <McCool_> ege: defn of backward compat
15:38:45 <kaz> s|subtopic: issue 1343||
15:38:53 <kaz> i|issues/1343|subtopic: issue 1343|
15:39:22 <McCool_> ege: have added some clarification in text regarding validation, and now all old TDs pass
15:39:28 <McCool_> ege: closing
15:39:36 <McCool_> subtopic: issue 854
15:39:52 <McCool_> ege: about read-only vs. write-only behavior
15:39:55 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1343|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1343 Issue 1343 - Dereference 1.1 context file via new TD 1.1 IRI|
15:40:14 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1540||
15:40:44 <kaz> i|this has been resolved;|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1540 Issue 1540 - 2019 URLs showing in namespaces #1540|
15:42:06 <kaz> i|this has been resolved|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/953 Issue 953 - For OAuth2 device flow, should we define a "device authorization" element?|
15:42:46 <McCool_> mm: would like to see change to readable and writeable, but not feasible now
15:42:52 <kaz> i|also done|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/926 Issue 926 - Add OAuth2 client and device flows|
15:43:06 <McCool_> ... issue though is about default value for readOnly, etc.
15:43:54 <kaz> i|defn of b|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1243 Issue 1243 - Definition of Backwards Compatibility|
15:44:01 <McCool_> ege: will create issue to look at this in TD 2.0
15:44:29 <kaz> i|about read-only|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/854 Issue 854 - Clarify read-only/write-only behavior|
15:44:43 <McCool_> mm: and also we should complain again to people working on JSON schema RFC
15:44:57 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3AV1.1
15:44:59 <McCool_> subtopic: label v1.1
15:45:06 <McCool_> ege: lots of open issues
15:46:19 <McCool_> mm: anything related to canonicalization should be closed, we can reopen for TD 2.0
15:46:53 <McCool_> ege: ok, will do offline
15:48:37 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1396
15:48:53 <McCool_> subtopic: issue 1396
15:49:06 <McCool_> mm: TAG review *request* is done, we can close this issue
15:50:49 <McCool_> subtopic: combo minCount 2
15:51:05 <McCool_> mm: this is in ontology, not getting caught by render script
15:52:59 <McCool_> ... in ttl, is in minCount 2
15:53:01 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1396||
15:53:29 <kaz> i|TAG review|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1396 Issue 1396 - Complete TAG/Security Wide Review Request|
15:53:42 <McCool_> ... possibly JSON schema does not include this constraint
15:55:03 <McCool_> ege: added note to issue
15:57:09 <McCool_> topic: wrapup
15:57:15 <Ege> q?
15:57:20 <McCool_> ege: will close all proposed closing issues and send an email
15:57:24 <kaz> i|this is in|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1438 Issue 1438 - ComboSecurityScheme: oneOf and allOf can be strings according to vocab table
15:57:26 <kaz> ack k
15:57:30 <McCool_> ... and will also close canonicalization issues as discussed
15:58:20 <kaz> [adjourned]
15:58:25 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
18:25:14 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wot-td