18:57:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #immersive-web
18:57:46 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/06/14-immersive-web-irc
18:59:03 <Leonard> Leonard has joined #Immersive-web
18:59:10 <Leonard> present+
19:01:33 <bajones> bajones has joined #Immersive-Web
19:01:38 <laford> laford has joined #immersive-web
19:02:29 <ada> present+
19:03:18 <Ren> Ren has joined #immersive-web
19:03:23 <atsushi> WBS of charter review > https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/iwwg-charter-2022/
19:03:49 <laford> unable to join the webex meeting
19:03:55 <laford> stuck on "connecting"
19:04:01 <cabanier> present+
19:04:10 <ada> oh that's odd
19:04:11 <atsushi> rrsagent, make log public
19:04:39 <ada> it seems to be working laford
19:04:52 <atsushi> AC rep list > https://www.w3.org/Member/ACList
19:04:58 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
19:04:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/14-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:05:31 <atsushi> s/ > / -> /
19:05:34 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
19:05:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/14-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:05:55 <atsushi> s/ > / -> /g
19:06:12 <laford> I'm in
19:06:14 <laford> +present
19:07:23 <yonet> present+
19:07:48 <Leonard> scribe leonard
19:08:14 <yonet> Agenda: /invite RRSAgent #immersive-web
19:08:29 <yonet> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e04319d4-6887-4325-b02c-c4eff5814093/20220614T120000
19:08:30 <Leonard> Agenda at https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/main/meetings/wg/2022-06-14-Immersive_Web_Working_Group_Teleconference-agenda.md
19:08:48 <Leonard> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-hand-input/issues/117
19:09:14 <atsushi> s|Agenda: /invite RRSAgent #immersive-web||
19:09:25 <atsushi> s/agenda at/agenda:/
19:09:28 <Leonard> Rik: Oculus browser stopped working when using hand inputs. Now hand inputs are on regardless or system gesture or not.
19:09:52 <atsushi> i|https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-hand-input/issues/117|topic: webxr-hand-input #117 Provide a signal that hands are doing a system gesture|
19:09:57 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
19:09:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/14-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:10:12 <Leonard> ... wants to provide signal when the system is processing system gestures and the application should not do hand movement recognition
19:10:17 <laford> +q
19:10:43 <atsushi> s/scribe /scribe: /
19:10:45 <laford> c:
19:10:47 <atsushi> s/+present/present+
19:10:49 <Leonard> ... Concerned about adding another event because of the large number of events
19:10:54 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
19:10:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/14-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:11:22 <ada> q+ to say that gamepad is mistake
19:11:33 <ada> ack laford
19:11:37 <atsushi> s|s/agenda at/agenda:/||
19:11:53 <atsushi> s/Agenda at /agenda: /
19:11:55 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
19:11:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/14-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:11:57 <ada> q?
19:11:59 <ada> ack ada
19:11:59 <Zakim> ada, you wanted to say that gamepad is mistake
19:12:49 <laford> +q
19:12:51 <cabanier> q+
19:12:54 <ada> ack laford
19:13:13 <Leonard> Lachlan: Would like more clarity on why events are bad
19:13:37 <bajones> q+
19:13:42 <Leonard> Rik: There are a lot of authoring issues with events. Mostly it seems that authors are not handling them correctly.
19:13:46 <Leonard> q+
19:14:36 <ada> q+ to concede
19:16:58 <ada> Zakim, choose a victim
19:16:58 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose yonet
19:17:09 <cabanier> flag: XR_HAND_TRACKING_AIM_SYSTEM_GESTURE_BIT_FB
19:17:43 <ada> zakim, present
19:17:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'present', ada
19:17:59 <ada> who's here?
19:18:02 <ada> zakim, who's here?
19:18:02 <Zakim> Present: Leonard, ada, cabanier, present, yonet
19:18:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see Ren, laford, bajones, Leonard, RRSAgent, Zakim, yonet, atsushi, ada, cwilso, iank_, sangwhan, cabanier, NellWaliczek, bemfmmhhj, SergeyRubanov, babage, etropea73101,
19:18:04 <Zakim> ... [old]freshgumbubbles, rzr, OverTime, Chrysippus, dietrich, fernansd, `join_subline, Manishearth
19:18:20 <ada> q?
19:18:31 <Leonard> q-
19:18:33 <ada> ack cabanier
19:18:36 <ada> ack bajones
19:18:48 <Leonard> Leonard has left #immersive-web
19:18:50 <bajones> Hold on, tech difficulties
19:19:13 <cabanier> q+
19:19:43 <yonet> brandon: generally I think it is little difficult to look at some of the events and make apple to apple comparison
19:20:16 <yonet> It is something doesn't come up often that people are motivated. I'm hesitant to make comparison.
19:20:31 <yonet> brandon: I want to make sure it is not easy to accidently ignore
19:21:06 <yonet> brandon: we do have the target ray mode in input sources, a lot of apps check
19:22:05 <yonet> brandon: There are a lot of ifs, with a the content out there, it is hard to say, this won't break.
19:22:22 <yonet> Both flag and event will be both ignorable by the developers
19:23:03 <yonet> ada: my experience dealing with hand input, it seems frequently, the only time devs check target ray mode is when the app starts.
19:23:31 <laford_> laford_ has joined #immersive-web
19:23:31 <yonet> ada: if it is not tracking pointer, it is gaze and you go a different path
19:24:07 <yonet> ada: they have to be significantly refactor to account for target ray mode is can change anytime
19:24:51 <yonet> brandon: It would not surprise me if the frameworks are checking ray target once.
19:25:20 <bajones> q+
19:25:30 <yonet> ada: From the pure developer point, flag would be simpler.
19:25:33 <ada> ack ada
19:25:33 <Zakim> ada, you wanted to concede
19:25:36 <ada> ack cabanier
19:25:59 <yonet> cabanier: I proposed this in the context of hands but maybe we should have flag for all of the input sources
19:26:22 <yonet> ada: if the user is doing something for the screen input
19:27:36 <ada> ack bajones
19:27:38 <ada> q?
19:27:43 <yonet> brandon: so much of our devices are gestured input right now. I think the native input can turn into a back gesture. I need to look.
19:28:27 <yonet> brandon: the thing I want to point, looking at the properties in the input source now, handedness, target ray mode, the profiles and spaces.
19:28:35 <yonet> technically those are all immutable
19:28:56 <yonet> While the position of the space is immutable and you query the spaces everytime.
19:29:40 <yonet> If any change, it is removal and re-enter. It is nice to say everything is immutable. That makes me to lean towards event
19:29:51 <cabanier> q+
19:29:55 <ada> ack cabanier
19:30:02 <yonet> brandon: maybe it is clearer if its an event
19:30:21 <yonet> rik: it would not be an attribute, but a function instead
19:30:37 <yonet> brandon: I would feel better about that than straight attribute
19:30:52 <yonet> rik: you are right, everything else is not immutable.
19:31:01 <yonet> q?4
19:31:34 <yonet> brandon: spitballing on this. Let's ignore if we have a gesture and ignore if it is event or flag
19:32:01 <yonet> Target ray space is there but you might not be able to get it at some point.
19:32:31 <yonet> brandon: if we stop giving out target ray point when there is a gesture, how much we would be breaking things
19:33:20 <yonet> if you are using a hand, I'm interacting with buttons. If you take away target ray space and the ray space dissapear. Any interactions based on that will dissapear naturally
19:34:00 <yonet> The failure mode that comes to mind, if they have some logic, first check target ray and if it is not there, there is no hand. I haven't seen a logic like that.
19:34:16 <yonet> I don't think we should not worry too much about that case
19:34:18 <yonet> q?
19:34:32 <yonet> rik: I guess that's something we should try out first
19:34:42 <yonet> brandon: getspace can always return null
19:35:23 <yonet> rik: if you can track the controller or hands we can assume we have target ray space
19:36:06 <yonet> brandon: I still think you could do a blur without this. If we think this is the safe thing to do, people might pay more attention.
19:36:50 <yonet> Maybe we can say, we wouldn't be breaking certain percentage of the apps but I am not sure if we can say that
19:37:05 <yonet> Rik: we might be able to gather some data on this.4
19:37:46 <yonet> rik: recap, we should always have a method that says (tbd). We need to experiment when you are doing a gesture we don't have target ray
19:37:47 <ada> q?
19:38:40 <yonet> rik: next topic, a library called doVR?
19:39:01 <yonet> Right now they use layers, you can't calculate their opacity.
19:39:29 <ada> q?
19:39:29 <bajones> q+
19:39:45 <yonet> rik: it is not surfaced in webxr layer.
19:39:58 <yonet> ada: what is the advantage of having opacity?
19:40:43 <yonet> rik: in the media layer there is no control. If you render it to a webgl layer, right now you render everything to a shader
19:40:55 <ada> ack bajones
19:40:56 <yonet> ada: I guess it is for debugging too.
19:41:57 <yonet> brandon: There are multiple ways that alpha blending can happen, is that something that is exposed to openXR and what are the options
19:42:10 <yonet> rik: there are multiple options.
19:42:28 <yonet> rik:composition layer color scale bias
19:42:33 <ada> q+ to ask about mixBlendMode
19:42:41 <yonet> is an extention
19:43:05 <yonet> brandon: this is used not only for alpha but also for a tint
19:43:32 <yonet> rik: also have a composition layer alpha blend, that lets you control how the background is treated.
19:43:50 <yonet> rik: currently webxr offers only source over blending
19:44:06 <ada> q?
19:44:18 <yonet> brandon: if I draw partially transparent pixels, it will only render alpha
19:44:21 <ada> ack ada
19:44:21 <Zakim> ada, you wanted to ask about mixBlendMode
19:44:30 <ada> q+
19:44:56 <ada> ack ada
19:45:07 <yonet> brandon: I don't have a particular problem with giving alpha. I just don't want to get overly complex with different layer blending options
19:45:25 <ada> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/mix-blend-mode#syntax
19:45:32 <yonet> ada: it would be nice if you get the same blend modes of css's blend modes
19:45:37 <yonet> rik: that we can not do.
19:46:12 <yonet> brandon: a lot of this mixed blend modes can be represented by openGL and web gpu
19:46:29 <yonet> I think it is more likely that we take WebBL or what web gpu does
19:46:56 <yonet> you are describing how the values are slotted than these human readable values
19:47:36 <yonet> ada: not all of these are going to be based on OpenXr. If we can have a some kind of blend mode, we could have a unified way for web
19:47:56 <yonet> rik: it can be done.
19:48:17 <yonet> ada: if we have a cloud layer and have fog with additive mode, that would be nice
19:48:20 <ada> q?
19:48:37 <yonet> It would be cool to have more of these modes.
19:48:59 <yonet> ada: WebGL has a list of modes for when it composites
19:49:11 <yonet> rik: meta is the only one that supports that.
19:49:35 <yonet> ada: if you were to use it, it will work but is not on the webxr spec
19:49:51 <yonet> rik: it is not on webxr spec but it is on openXR spec
19:50:03 <bajones> +1
19:50:06 <ada> +1
19:50:07 <yonet> rik: everybody OK with opacity?
19:50:07 <cabanier> +1
19:50:10 <yonet> +1
19:50:45 <yonet> ada: go ahead and update the spec
19:51:04 <Ren> +1
19:51:25 <yonet> Do we have anything else we want to bring up
19:51:43 <yonet> Sorry Ren, I've tried to get Ada's attention but I was muted I guess
19:52:13 <ada> RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:52:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/14-immersive-web-minutes.html ada
19:52:42 <yonet> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:52:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/14-immersive-web-minutes.html yonet
19:53:18 <yonet> Ada, I think I didn't change the scribe.
19:53:28 <ada> oh no
19:53:35 <yonet> Do you the minutes doesn't have mine
19:53:39 <atsushi> i/flag: XR_HAND_TRACKING_AIM/scribe+ yonet/
19:53:40 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
19:53:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/14-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:53:44 <yonet> OK. I'll look into it.
19:53:54 <ada> thanks for updating that atsushi
19:53:58 <yonet> and just type it in
19:56:19 <atsushi> i/next topic, a library called doVR?/topic: layers#283 Alpha property for XRCompositionLayer/
19:56:20 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
19:56:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/14-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:57:06 <atsushi> believe, this should be fine ;)
19:58:10 <yonet> Thanks Atsushi
19:58:22 <yonet> I've copied the text here if needed.
19:59:37 <atsushi> quick guide is here -> https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
22:27:57 <Zakim> Zakim has left #immersive-web