15:02:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #publishingcg
15:02:29 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/06/08-publishingcg-irc
15:02:31 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:02:33 <Naomi> Naomi has joined #publishingcg
15:02:33 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Community Group
15:02:39 <wolfgang> Scribe: Wolfgang
15:02:41 <ivan> present+
15:02:43 <Naomi> present+
15:02:46 <dauwhe> present+
15:02:48 <GeorgeK> present+
15:03:07 <wolfgang> Chair: zheny_xu
15:03:19 <wolfgang> chair: zheng_xu
15:03:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #publishingcg
15:04:01 <dauwhe> dauwhe has changed the topic to: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingcg/2022Jun/0006.html
15:04:09 <wolfgang> Topic: recent EPUB WG + PCG activities
15:04:35 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #publishingcg
15:05:12 <GautierChomel> present+
15:05:24 <dauwhe> https://www.w3.org/blog/2022/05/epub-3-3-is-now-in-cr/
15:05:39 <ivan> -> Publication list and status of the WG https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/epub-wg/PublStatus
15:05:46 <wolfgang> wendyreid: for the last two years, we have been updating EPUB 3.3 - currently in CR status - updates mostly around editorial fixes, made structural changes
15:06:00 <tzviya> present+
15:06:03 <wolfgang> ... separate RS vs. content creators
15:06:55 <wolfgang> ... new section: privacy and security - recommendations for authors and content creators - we are still making changes - feel free to log issues - reach out to any of us
15:07:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:07:08 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #publishingcg
15:07:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> Wendy's blog post is really excellent--if you haven't read it, you should.
15:07:28 <wolfgang> ... recommend reading the blog post
15:07:28 <ivan> -> test suite for EPUB https://w3c.github.io/epub-tests/
15:07:29 <CharlesL> present+
15:07:41 <ivan> q+
15:08:09 <wolfgang> Dave: Writing tests - at least two implementations for each feature needed - call for assistance in this process
15:08:31 <dauwhe> ack iva
15:08:33 <GautierChomel> q+
15:08:42 <wolfgang> Zheng: updated our web page which now contains links to specs
15:09:07 <dauwhe> Signup for tests: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13wgptApSVbQbYzi2L5VXe3D_1QLzJOTGySUAtOxn4sA/edit#gid=0
15:09:55 <wolfgang> Ivan: over 130 tests - testing is very important - Dan Lazin (testing champion): we need roughly 50 more -spreadsheet (see link) list test for MUST features
15:10:24 <dlazin> dlazin has joined #publishingcg
15:10:28 <dlazin> present+
15:10:31 <wolfgang> ... description how to contribute in IRC
15:10:35 <dauwhe> q?
15:11:31 <wolfgang> ... also RS implementors in the CG - we need RS developers to run the tests and report back to us - if you are in such a company convince people to run these tests and report back
15:11:36 <dauwhe> ack gau
15:11:44 <wolfgang> ... needed for W3C process
15:11:58 <ivan> q+
15:12:03 <zheng_xu> q?
15:12:15 <wolfgang> Gautier: responsible for EDRLAB testing - got some questions
15:13:23 <wolfgang> Ivan: you can contact me - if you like in French - addition to testing environment: report generator for direct use in Thorium
15:13:33 <dauwhe> q?
15:13:34 <dauwhe> ack iva
15:14:29 <wolfgang> Zheng: a few task forces - A11Y TF: accessibility metadata
15:14:40 <wolfgang> ... Documentation TF
15:15:06 <dlazin> q+
15:15:14 <wolfgang> ... PCG members willing to provide assistance for tests
15:16:13 <wolfgang> ... plan more incubating work - a lot of members are interested in education - have a TF Use cases in education
15:16:15 <dauwhe> ack dl
15:16:33 <tzviya> q+ to explain incubation process (after zheng_xu finishes intro)
15:17:42 <wolfgang> Dlazin: test lead for EPUB 3.3 + TF documentation - slowly working getting EPUB docs - only bits and pieces - best documentation in Daisy's database but with a slant towards A11Y
15:18:03 <zheng_xu> q+
15:18:21 <wolfgang> ... intend to do basic canonical documentation - got MDN to agree to take care of the doc
15:18:28 <dlazin> https://docs.google.com/document/d/16lNrPwXcGS9w1ePQLFf60Hx-RvbE4roG2YkwjL_X-Hc/edit#heading=h.aorc81xxt93h
15:19:39 <dlazin> https://github.com/dlazin/mdn-yari/blob/main/kumascript/macros/EPUBRef.ejs
15:20:22 <dlazin> https://github.com/dlazin/mdn-content/tree/main/files/en-us/related/epub
15:21:13 <wolfgang> ... this Google doc is a checklist for MDN - basic EPUB sample documents from colleagues - architecture for the documentation - enable to run MDN locally
15:21:17 <zheng_xu> q?
15:21:50 <wolfgang> ... we don't want to give it to MDN, before minimum viable set is ready
15:22:17 <dauwhe> ack tz
15:22:17 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to explain incubation process (after zheng_xu finishes intro)
15:23:25 <wolfgang> tzviya: incubation process - 10 years ago W3C had the idea that experimentation in a CG should precede a WG - you test the waters - collect use cases
15:24:42 <wolfgang> ... explore what the world of publishing is interested in - could move that forward in a WG - we don't have this conversation of WG and PCG - it is not clear what happens when the work on EPUB 3.3 is finished
15:24:54 <wolfgang> ... ideas should start at the CG
15:24:56 <dauwhe> ack zh
15:26:27 <wolfgang> zheng: let us know if you would like to put forward an idea - one of our missions is to provide feedback to WG - we are looking forward to more active communication from our members
15:26:46 <wolfgang> ... and also for incubations of ideas
15:27:21 <wolfgang> Topic: WG FXL A11y, Virtual locators and Testing
15:28:03 <dauwhe> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y/
15:28:44 <wolfgang> wendyreid: TF 1: FXL A11Y - looking for best practices based on existing A11Y specs (e.g. WCAG) - what could we do to make FXL content as accessible as possible using existing standards
15:29:17 <wolfgang> ... not possible to make FXL content fully accessible
15:30:56 <wolfgang> ... TF 2: virtual locators in lack of page numbers - criticism in academia: how to cite properly from EPUB? - addressability problem has haunted us again and again
15:31:31 <GeorgeK> q+
15:31:37 <wolfgang> ... many slightly different ways to make locators work - how can we reach a consistent standardized solution
15:31:40 <dauwhe> ack g
15:32:10 <wolfgang> George: do you plan to identify a standard for citations ?
15:32:42 <wolfgang> wendyreid: no - how do we create a location model that fits into existing citation models
15:32:46 <ivan> q+
15:32:54 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:33:14 <dauwhe> ack iv
15:33:23 <zheng_xu> q?
15:34:13 <wolfgang> Ivan: how the metadata of the package document can be turned into the IEEE citation style - ACM or IEEE define that
15:35:40 <wolfgang> ... what is the equivalent of an anchor in an HTML file that I could use to point to a specific location in the EPUB document  via a URL - we look for a minimal viable algorithm to address a point in a documnet
15:36:19 <wendyreid> q+
15:36:44 <zheng_xu> q+
15:36:59 <zheng_xu> q?
15:36:59 <GeorgeK> q+
15:37:03 <wolfgang> ... EPUB CFI was one approach - maybe a useful addition - WG spent time on it - would need incubation in terms of implementation and spec work before we start with a WG
15:37:08 <dauwhe> ack bil
15:37:47 <dauwhe> ack wen
15:37:49 <wolfgang> BillK: locators TF not working on standardizing citation - just how to define a mechanism
15:37:51 <zheng_xu> q?
15:38:48 <wolfgang> wendyreid: annotations not yet touched - focus on page numbering and page location that is quite incocnsistent -
15:39:17 <wolfgang> ... solving this addressability problem, we should take a more holistic approach
15:39:36 <wolfgang> billk: standardized mechanism for loactions
15:39:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/loactions/arbitrary locations
15:40:26 <wolfgang> wendy: yes - CFI needs more work - are there implementations, how do they work, CFIs very complex - only machine-readable
15:40:43 <zheng_xu> q?
15:40:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:40:52 <wolfgang> ... looking for sth simpler that is less complex and works both for machines and humans
15:40:55 <dauwhe> ack zh
15:40:58 <dauwhe> ack geo
15:41:09 <tzviya> q+ to explain the problem
15:41:17 <wolfgang> George: is this problem solved in HTML?
15:41:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-
15:42:10 <zheng_xu> q?
15:42:26 <wolfgang> Ivan: many years ago Annotation WG came up with a standard that might be used in HTML for anchoring annotations into an HTML page - never implemented - t
15:43:30 <wolfgang> ... not very satisfactory - in general, we don't have a solution - if the author hasn't put IDs everywhere, I can't add annotations
15:44:33 <wolfgang> George: an individual EPUB on my machine would have annotation - you can't hand this information on or update the EPUB without losing it
15:45:47 <wendyreid> q+
15:45:49 <wolfgang> tzviya: we could write a spec - but we would need buy-in from the RS developers - different implementations need to a user lock-in - academia needs a solution
15:46:06 <ivan> q+
15:46:16 <dlazin> q+
15:46:30 <tzviya> ack me
15:46:30 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to explain the problem
15:46:30 <ivan> ack tzviya
15:46:34 <wolfgang> ... there are several solutions, but none is standardized - there is an annotation spec, but it is has not been implemented
15:46:54 <zheng_xu> q?
15:47:38 <dauwhe> ack wen
15:47:38 <dauwhe> https://wicg.github.io/scroll-to-text-fragment/
15:48:07 <dauwhe> ack iv
15:48:10 <wolfgang> Wendy: agree with Ivan and Tzviya - a lot of user pressure about annotations (that should be portable) - if we don't build it, others will do it - slightly shifting tide towards supporting annotations
15:48:58 <wolfgang> ivan: how come that these exchangible annotations do work in PDF - works also on other PDF readers
15:49:48 <dauwhe> q+
15:50:06 <wolfgang> Naomi: you have edited PDF file by adding annotations - but no RS supports editing an existing EPUB
15:50:06 <zheng_xu> q?
15:50:09 <dauwhe> ack dl
15:51:18 <wolfgang> dlazin: for the related question of page numbers, we can only solve it on a standards levels
15:52:05 <wolfgang> dave: pasted an option
15:52:24 <wolfgang> dlazin: works only in Chrome - simple, but it works
15:52:24 <dauwhe> ack da
15:53:03 <wolfgang> Zheng: Paul will be leading our Education TF
15:53:39 <zheng_xu> q?
15:53:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:54:20 <wolfgang> PaulBelfanti: TF for collecting use cases for education - features that would enhance the experience from the view of an educational publisher
15:55:03 <zheng_xu> q+
15:55:14 <ivan> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:55:17 <dauwhe> ack zh
15:55:17 <wolfgang> BillK: it refers to educational content on the Web - not only EPUB
15:55:44 <wolfgang> Zheng: a lot of good directions from today's discussion -
15:56:07 <wolfgang> Topic: modes of cooperation in CG and with WG
15:57:20 <wolfgang> zheng: we have issues in our github repo - how could WG communicate to CG - how can we move things forward? - we have publishers, RS devs, conversion specialists
15:57:42 <wolfgang> ... how can we make the communication more active?
15:58:40 <zheng_xu> q?
15:59:50 <zheng_xu> q+
16:00:09 <wolfgang> George: CG meets once a month - whole group or a TF could use that fixed date -
16:00:18 <CharlesL> q+
16:00:46 <wolfgang> Zheng: each month there is update for TF and option to raise issues
16:01:11 <wolfgang> ... you may recommend a time for the meeting of each TF
16:01:29 <zheng_xu> q?
16:01:38 <wolfgang> ... would members like to have more specific meetings, we can arrange for it
16:01:44 <dauwhe> ack zh
16:01:46 <dauwhe> ack ch
16:02:46 <wolfgang> CharlesL: a blitz to publishers - CG is the way to participate in W3C - get more exposure by marketing activities to get more involvement
16:03:40 <dauwhe> Zakim, end meeting
16:03:40 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ivan, Naomi, dauwhe, GeorgeK, GautierChomel, tzviya, Bill_Kasdorf, CharlesL, dlazin
16:03:42 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:03:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/08-publishingcg-minutes.html Zakim
16:03:46 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, dauwhe; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:03:49 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #publishingcg
16:03:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #publishingcg
16:03:53 <dauwhe> RRSAgent, bye
16:03:53 <RRSAgent> I see no action items