13:54:48 RRSAgent has joined #me 13:54:48 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/06/07-me-irc 13:54:51 Zakim has joined #me 13:55:08 Meeting: MEIG monthly meeting 13:55:10 scribe+ cpn 13:55:42 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/aca4b99e-8fc4-4d91-813d-1846871c7af3 13:58:00 atai has joined #me 13:59:34 tidoust has joined #me 14:02:05 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Chris_Needham, John_Riviello 14:02:32 igarashi has joined #me 14:02:53 present+ atai 14:03:49 JohnRiv has joined #me 14:06:25 calvaris has joined #me 14:06:40 present+ Igarashi 14:08:45 zakim, who is on the call? 14:08:46 Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Chris_Needham, John_Riviello, atai, Igarashi 14:09:02 present+ Andreas_Tai 14:09:06 present- atai 14:09:24 present+ Francois_Daoust, Chris_Lorenzo 14:09:58 present+ John_Simmons, Xabier_Rodriguez_Calvar 14:10:08 present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi 14:10:13 present- Igarashi 14:10:19 rrsagent, make log public 14:10:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:10:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/07-me-minutes.html kaz 14:11:03 ChrisLorenzo has joined #me 14:11:21 ChrisN: Background is TV app performance discussion from TPAC 2021 14:11:36 Topic: Lightning 14:11:59 ChrisL: I'm at Comcast, our goal was to use a different rendering technology on devices for pure performance reasons 14:12:27 ... Rendering is very slow, as you navigate it switches from one thing to another, no animations, not a great user experience 14:12:49 ... Due to low-end performance on devices. TV devices have great GPUs for video playback, but the CPU isn't high end 14:13:02 https://lightningjs.io/articles/how-does-lightning-compare-to-html5/ 14:13:05 ... What Lightning does is to still use a browser, but a WebGL based canvas 14:13:30 ... Video shows a comparison between a Lightning app vs an HTML app, it's twice as fast in FPS 14:14:07 ... Gentle animations between one image and the next. If you want to build an app, we're at the point where you can't use HTML and CSS for performance 14:14:33 ... HTML creates a DOM tree and CSS applies styling. WebGL talks to the GPU, draw at particular coordinates 14:14:33 q? 14:15:24 q+ 14:15:32 scribe+ 14:15:33 cpn: Concur from a BBC perspective with the problem statement. 14:15:34 ChrisN: Agree, we're seeing similar issues 14:15:50 John: Impact of multiple applications running on TVs? 14:16:01 i/Agree/scribenick: cpn/ 14:16:18 ChrisL: Devices have limited memory, but the cost is you can't load multiple applications at the same time 14:16:48 ... Each app might require 350MB memory, so having 3 apps running at the same time you can hit a 2GB threshold quickly 14:17:07 ... If you don't write the app well, you get memory leaks 14:17:22 ... Performance is relatively stable once the app is started 14:17:37 John: So slow to make channel changes 14:18:02 ChrisL: Yes. There are processes running in the background that uses say 10% CPU 14:18:17 ... I'll share an article 14:18:20 q? 14:18:35 https://forum.lightningjs.io/t/memory-leaks-in-lightning/229 14:18:41 q+ 14:18:56 Performance - https://forum.lightningjs.io/t/performance-issues-in-lightning/260 14:19:14 Kaz: You mentioned some benchmark tools, we can see potential issues like CPU power. We used to tackle a cloud browser approach some years ago 14:19:41 ... Should we look at issues first in more detail, then look at various approaches to address performance at different layers 14:20:13 ChrisL: Comcast did cloud based rendering for many years. The drawback is you need a big cloud 14:20:36 ... So ideally you move to computation to the device, ideally a browser. But the downside is it's slow to render 14:20:58 ... You should be doing more server side pre-processing to minimise the computation on the client 14:21:14 Kaz: Load sharing approach is being looked at in Web & Networks IG 14:21:48 John: We've discussed the variety of approaches being taken in the media industry, so bespoke solutions 14:21:51 ack kaz 14:22:23 ChrisL: One approach is native, larger companies do that, primarily C++, then they have to get it running on each device, OS, and firmware 14:22:37 ... Becomes a large task to work with manufacturers to integrate 14:23:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:23:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/07-me-minutes.html kaz 14:23:22 ... Different flavours of native, such as Android UI, some companies use WASM with a runtime that creates another app on the device, then web browsers 14:23:28 ... Use Swift on Apple 14:23:37 chair: ChrisN, ChrisL, Igarashi 14:23:56 ... There becomes a lot of ways to build applications, each is different per manufacturer, so hard to make it work across devices 14:24:07 s/cpn:/ChrisN:/ 14:24:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:24:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/07-me-minutes.html kaz 14:24:30 ... Lightning is a way of developing web based applications. But we still have the issue of how to get it onto each manufacturer's devices. No standard deployment model for applications 14:24:51 ... For TV apps, you can give a URL, host yourself. With Tizen you have to *** 14:25:21 ... For developers would be beneficial to have some kind of progressive web app store to install easily on TVs 14:25:22 ack a 14:26:24 Andreas: Question about standardisation. How would your approach affect accessibility, if you can't use ARIA tags 14:26:52 ... How would you compare the expressiveness of the Lightning approach compared to HTML? And how easy is it for implementers to use the accessibility features? 14:27:50 ChrisL: It's actually relatively easily. Learning all the ARIA tags requires a specialist. With Lightning, you navigate with arrow keys, and speak out 14:28:02 .. We use text to speech and the browser speech synthesis API 14:28:17 q+ 14:28:32 https://rdkcentral.github.io/Lightning-UI-Components/?path=/docs/mixins-withannouncer--basic 14:28:37 ... It's a simple approach, but developers have to write a lot of strings for what you want to say. Could get to a point where we have something similar to ARIA tags, but need a component based approach 14:28:49 Andreas: Did you test with standard screen readers? 14:29:11 ChrisL: No, there's no inspection into a canvas tag. We experimented with a library that converts to HTML markup 14:29:14 q+ 14:29:17 ack a 14:29:48 ... With HTML you use the standard elements, but with canvas they're just objects. No standard for that across multiple applications 14:30:12 ... We created a Lighning UI component library. The Button component has ARIA-like labels 14:31:17 Kaz: Regarding the potential interoperability problem between the existing HTML approach and this new approach, I've been working on a possible speech / smart agent workshop 14:31:33 ... Interop of speech processing platforms is a topic there. 14:31:50 ack k 14:32:16 ChrisL: Some of the compatibility is: use the web browser, but how to make the browser the foundation for how we make applications 14:32:49 ... Bring your own runtime means more memory and resource usage. A browser with a standard WASM runtime allows a shared environment 14:33:22 ... Load from disk or URL, different deployment model. Questions around offline mode with these applications. Solved in some way with PWA in the web world. 14:33:37 ... TV manufacturers need to ramp up to adopt these patterns, create a unified standard 14:33:44 Kaz: Relates to MiniApps approach? 14:34:23 Louay has joined #me 14:34:31 present+ Louay_Bassbouss 14:34:35 ChrisL: Yes. HTML and CSS is slow rendering. Way forward could be a) like Cobalt, simplified HTML and CSS, b) with WASM, c) MiniApps, with something like HTML that renders UI 14:34:43 ... Up in the cloud ideas, how to get people onboard? 14:35:27 John: If the goal is to come up with a good solution, but have it be adopted, we'd need companies to buy in. Engage people early in discussion on requirements for problem solving and on the spec choices to be made 14:36:01 ... In WAVE we didn't want to move forward until we have one significant TV service and one manufacturer bought into the process, to ensure there's at least some path to adoption in the industry 14:36:05 q? 14:36:31 ... That part, the front-loading of getting likely candidates to say they're interested is critical to its success 14:36:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:36:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/07-me-minutes.html kaz 14:37:07 ChrisL: In questions we get, we see confusion about developing TV applications, how do i deploy on a Comcast, Samsung, etc device? 14:37:16 q+ 14:37:25 ... Education is needed 14:37:44 John: Also business models, getting things into a store 14:38:11 ... The PWA model has a discovery model, find the app that can play this content. Becomes so much simpler for a developer to test and verify their app 14:38:39 ... It's a game changer. But it runs counter to some business models, hence why it's important to get major players bought in 14:39:07 ... Things that may appeal to us as having a good design may not work for business reasons 14:39:32 ... Important for W3C to be more relevant in this space 14:40:17 ... What's the process, the path forward? Looking back at how MSE and EME were created, the industry got deeply involved. What's the thinking? 14:45:47 ChrisN: We use HbbTV, it's an HTML based environment but with broadcast delivery integrations. Can we get them on board? 14:46:05 ChrisL: 14:46:48 John: Two concerns, accessibility from Andreas, and hybrid solutions as Chris mentioned 14:47:41 ... There's a need to capture the requirements. We have a problem statement, and use that before we start to propose solutions 14:48:12 ... I'm encouraged by how Lightning had to solve these problems, shows there's a path 14:49:00 ... Three concerns: we bring the existing HTML infrastructure to bridge the gap between broadcast and web world, have an off-ramp for all that. And all the work done on accessibility, including speech as Kaz mentioned 14:50:00 ... All the tools that people created around accessibility. Thirdly, and critically, the streaming services and device manufacturers need to be bought into the problem statement and path foward 14:50:45 ... We managed to do that for MSE, as we had a number of companies that made it possible. We need to get that same kind of momentum for creating a framework 14:51:36 ChrisL: Getting all manufacturers to adopt a standard browser, I'll spend some time looking at Tizen. Painful to have to set up a virtual machine. I'm used to developing in Chrome with standard JavaScript practices 14:52:08 ... I want to write my app for your TV in Chrome, should have to do minimal debugging, and be easy to get started 14:52:25 ... The sooner we can get to the point where there's a standard browser, not a unique development environment 14:53:11 John: CTA WAVE, when they adopted HTML as the app development framework, and been frustrated that it hasn't become the platform of choice, they created automated test infrastructure for media playback 14:54:13 ... It's automated with QR codes and a camera for running tests. Game changing for manufacturers, makes verification easier. Having a standard browser, then all the tests are free to use, 14:54:52 ... verify all the media profiles, CMAF, test content, tools. It would be a compelling reason to adopt an HTML5 based framework as an entry point 14:55:27 ... Need a TV manufacturer who'll be willing to engage and be a partner in the development 14:55:56 ChrisL: Comcast has been doing this, they have RDK, X-Class TV, working with HiSense. Ideally you'd want them, Samsung, LG 14:56:31 ... I think there's complexity, RDK creates the OS that has the browser, stripped down, device drivers. Also video payback is difficult 14:57:18 ... We often dont' use the video tag, and use the AMP player. Tests can show where there are browser or device driver issues 14:58:19 cpn: other input that I get from our TV developers is inconsistency of implementations, e.g. some combination of properties for CSS animations. That's even within the regular HTML/CSS rendering model. 14:58:41 i/other input that/scribenick: tidoust/ 14:58:54 ... It makes me wonder whether there's something there that could be looked at. Even if we introduce a new rendering approach, we'll have the legacy problem. 14:59:08 q+ 14:59:11 ... Devices that support the old model, and devices that will support the new model. 15:00:12 ... I think that the plan that John put forward is the right one. Pulling the right people. 15:00:58 JohnS: Maybe if someone could write things done, that could help get at least one TV manufacturer engaged. 15:01:17 ack c 15:01:53 ... Document that details the problem statement, a kind of roadmap for the project. Looking for a ready-made proposal or call for proposals? 15:02:19 ... Also, you're right that it should be a collaboration with other organizations. I think there needs to be some outreach to them. 15:03:12 ChrisL: One direction is to push for adoption of a solid web browser across devices. That won't solve the HTML/CSS performance issue but will simplify application deployment process. 15:03:44 ... Once you have a standard browser in there, how do I inject a TV API in there? 15:05:16 John: I'd like your proposed specs 15:05:26 ... seems to be correct to me 15:05:50 ... having another meeting to break out the points would make sense 15:06:16 ... let's include Jon Piecing and somebody from IPTV Forum as well 15:06:22 ... ATSC as well 15:06:39 q? 15:06:52 ChrisN: can we capture the steps? 15:07:09 ChrisL: I have a summary of the steps 15:07:35 ... simpler way to develop apps like app store is a step 15:07:52 ... and then improve the performance using WebGL, etc. 15:07:55 ChrisL: Step 1: Standard browsers of TVs, a simple way of getting apps on to TV. Step 2: How to increase performance on TVs, WebGL or WASM. Standard approach allows accessibility 15:08:16 i/Step 1:/scribenick: cpn/ 15:08:25 ... Then broadcast TV integration and talk to the TV hardware. Add APIs to the Window object 15:08:45 i/I'd like your proposed/scribenick: kaz/ 15:10:18 ChrisN: Write something, capture all the aspects we've talked about. How far to go before sending liaisons? 15:10:43 John: Work small first, talk to relevant people, then can broaden out later 15:10:55 ack k 15:11:43 s/Jon Piecing/Jon Piesing/ 15:12:33 Kaz: I'd like to talk with the NHK guys about this. This discussion could be part of a potential Task Force, can see the possibility 15:13:04 ChrisN: Want to run this as a joint WAVE and W3C thing, so everyone can be included and work is complementary 15:13:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:13:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:13:33 John: I agree, perhaps we'll talk offline on how best to coordinate, but it's smart to do that from the beginning 15:19:52 calvaris has left #me 15:21:03 [adjourned] 15:21:05 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:21:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:24:44 s//What we do is to extend the Window environment with a TV object/ 15:26:31 rrsagent, stop