16:51:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:51:00 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/06/02-aria-irc
16:51:04 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:51:04 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:51:06 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:51:17 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:51:17 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:51:18 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20220602T130000
16:51:18 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:51:18 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3PPSMg9
16:51:18 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3lZHLv3
16:51:20 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:51:23 <agendabot> agenda+  -> ARIA interaction with MathML https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1723
16:51:26 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Consider adding a 'decorative image' role https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1746
16:51:29 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Does aria-hidden obey DOM or AX tree ancestors? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1714
16:51:32 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 triage https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+no%3Aassignee
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17:01:36 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
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17:03:25 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:03:30 <StefanS> present+
17:03:33 <myasonik> present+
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17:03:52 <scotto> present+
17:05:08 <spectranaut> scribe: spectranaut
17:05:13 <spectranaut> jamesn: welcomes josh black and has everyone introduce themselves
17:06:46 <siri> present+
17:08:29 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:08:29 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3PPSMg9 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:08:45 <spectranaut> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1749
17:09:17 <spectranaut> jamesn: I'm not sure I understand, I understand why in css there is a press before release, but do we care in aria?
17:09:33 <spectranaut> scotto: I think they are looking for some kind of active state....
17:09:41 <spectranaut> jamesn: do we care about an active state vs pressed state?
17:10:17 <spectranaut> jcraig: maybe something act on press down and some on press up... maybe there is an option for cancellation when the action is on press down. this might be a web application question lets clarify from author?
17:10:22 <spectranaut> jcraig: I'll ask
17:11:51 <spectranaut> chlane: I think at vmware, they want an active state, because they do something visual.... there is a concern about whether this is not accessible?
17:12:10 <spectranaut> jamesn: the question is would that actually be useful to expose that information to screen reader users? We need to know that
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17:12:32 <spectranaut> jamesn: we will come back to it after clarification
17:12:34 <spectranaut> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1747
17:12:58 <spectranaut> siri: I have an action on this
17:13:02 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:13:02 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3lZHLv3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:13:20 <spectranaut> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/412
17:13:37 <spectranaut> lots of editorial PRs from scott
17:14:02 <spectranaut> scotto: most are small, need reviews, intert attribute should be straightforward but i have an open question
17:14:43 <spectranaut> scotto: if anyone has questions please reach out
17:14:56 <spectranaut> jamesn gets reviewers for all of scott's editorial PRs
17:16:14 <spectranaut> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/410 needs implementer review, we might need mozilla to look at it
17:16:42 <spectranaut> s/jamesn/jamesn:/
17:17:02 <spectranaut> jamesn: can you get james teh to review the intert PR?
17:17:30 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:17:30 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:49 <spectranaut> jamesn: when will be ready for popups?
17:18:07 <spectranaut> scotto: we will have to punt until we can arrange a time with aaron
17:18:27 <spectranaut> jamesn: nothing scheduled for next week and the week after, currently.
17:18:31 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:18:31 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> ARIA interaction with MathML https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1723 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:19:09 <spectranaut> jamesn: neil is not here, and he is a member of this group, and we were hoping to have this discussion with him
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17:19:31 <spectranaut> jamesn: but there are an explicit question about whether we can / would like to be involved
17:19:49 <spectranaut> jamesn: they are asking about a mathml "intent" attribute, should there be a similar aria one?
17:20:04 <spectranaut> jamesn: (continues to go over the options in the issue)
17:21:32 <spectranaut> jamesn: I don't care between a2 and a3, until they work out how to use MathML, and know how what they do maps to ARIA, until they have MathML mappings to accessibility api with whatever they are doing in intent, then we can potential do an parallel aria
17:22:24 <spectranaut> jcraig: it seems like there is a semantic difference.... maybe because the pronounciation is not as intended... if it unambiguous but pronounced the right way. but if it is ambiguous in Mathml, then this is something specific to mathml and not something specific to aria
17:22:58 <spectranaut> jcraig: the ways the could deal with: it if it is unambigious, then we (AT+browser venders) need to fix bugs
17:23:12 <spectranaut> jcraig: if it is ambigious.... (didn't catch)
17:23:24 <spectranaut> jamesn: sounds like the aria group needs no further involvement at this point
17:23:48 <spectranaut> jamesn: otherwise, a2 or a3 we can't weigh in on, if they want to use aria-label, that is fine.
17:24:07 <spectranaut> jcraig: it sounds like they are describing browser bugs
17:24:18 <spectranaut> jcraig: and that they are trying to work around them
17:24:45 <spectranaut> jamesn: are we interested in option 4?
17:25:04 <spectranaut> jamesn: I'm not sure there is anything useful for us to contribute until mathml figures out where all the gaps are
17:25:07 <spectranaut> jcraig: I agree
17:25:19 <spectranaut> jamesn: I'll reply
17:25:43 <spectranaut> jamesn: anyone disagree?
17:25:51 <spectranaut> scotto: I agree
17:25:58 <MarkMcCarthy> +1
17:26:11 <spectranaut> jamesn: I'm not sure we have time given all the work we have, but if anyone is interested, they can join the mathml group
17:26:25 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:26:25 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Consider adding a 'decorative image' role https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1746 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:27:52 <spectranaut> scotto: this spins out of the long convo we have been having about firefox treating image with alt sent to the empty string but with the title attribute set. james teh says we shouldn't drop accessibility information if it is available. I have more proposals about image name and when images is an image, this is one proposal
17:28:13 <jamesn> q+
17:28:15 <spectranaut> scotto: we have a boolean, image is either decorative or performative
17:29:00 <spectranaut> scotto: what about a middle option.... people with low vision might be unsure of a decorative image
17:29:11 <CurtBellew> present+
17:29:14 <spectranaut> scotto: there is a lot of images that are garbage and that people don't want access to
17:29:35 <spectranaut> scotto: but who are we to decide? user agents could provide a setting to access or not access. the images could be named
17:30:13 <spectranaut> scotto: I don't like the idea that they are informative or decorative and nothing in between
17:30:25 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:30:25 <spectranaut> cyns: how is this different from role presentation?
17:30:30 <Matt_King> present+
17:30:32 <Matt_King> q+
17:30:33 <spectranaut> scotto: that makes the graphic not a graphic anymore
17:30:37 <spectranaut> present+
17:30:41 <jamesn> ack me
17:31:25 <spectranaut> jamesn: I agree that there is an area in the middle. one thing I come up with in apps all the time is an avatar, you don't want it voiced all the time, but you do want to know it is there and that you can reference it
17:31:43 <spectranaut> jamesn: maybe the content needs an importance level?
17:32:36 <spectranaut> scott: I was working with a banking client, and we had to talk about whether their images were informative or decorative, and the designed got very made that the child holding a balloon was not informative on a "how to sign up for an account" page
17:33:08 <spectranaut> jamesn: well, on a marketing page, the images are there to evoke something -- maybe they can just be voiced once, and not in the future?
17:33:23 <spectranaut> scotto: is this something that is nice to know?
17:33:24 <jamesn> ack matt
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17:34:30 <cyns> q+
17:34:36 <cyns> q?
17:34:40 <spectranaut> Matt_King: I think you both said a lot of things that are important, I think there is a lot of need, this is a bold proposal, wcag might need to revivist what they say about this. one of my own use cases is when I am trying to understand what people are doing with a design. knowing what images are there, and the fact that there are even images at all? there was a lot of argument about which images were informative.
17:34:58 <spectranaut> Matt_King: I like the idea of verbosity settings that can be set on a per page basis
17:36:06 <spectranaut> Matt_King: it seems like there are three decisions that someone could make: informative, decorative but with meaning, graphics for spacing and layout (hopefully does not exist any more???) but probably some cases where there is zero value in the image
17:36:34 <spectranaut> jamesn: is this something we should do, or should WAI adapt folks pick it up?
17:36:55 <spectranaut> jamesn: this is about metadata. this might be bigger than just images.  there are other things that sometimes you want to know about but not at all times
17:37:25 <spectranaut> Matt_King: I think something to serve a very specific purpose, image verbosity, is potentially easily resolvable, and something we can do
17:37:34 <jamesn> q+
17:38:00 <spectranaut> Matt_King: when we find differences in what browsers are doing... we might be able to do something achievable to fix it
17:38:02 <jamesn> ack cyns
17:38:34 <jamesn> ack jamesn
17:38:34 <spectranaut> cyns: I'm coming around on this idea. another example: I worked on a recruiting site, every page had huge picture that was the main content (happy employees)
17:39:12 <spectranaut> jamesn: I want to clarify -- would we envision this new role being available from html with no idea? for example, not alt but a title?
17:39:27 <spectranaut> scotto: yes, the goal is that that would be the same thing
17:40:05 <cyns> q+ to say alt="" title="string" is too obscure. Would be better to add an html or aria attribute describing this type of medium-importance image
17:40:19 <spectranaut> scotto: the other solution is that instead of becoming presentational, it becomes generic -- which exposes the information but does not expose that it is a graphic. not sure this is a good idea.
17:40:35 <spectranaut> scotto: I shopped around the issues' idea and got some positive feedback
17:41:03 <spectranaut> cyns: we could also propose an html attribute...? I think it is easier now than it used to be
17:41:12 <spectranaut> jamesn: is this a openui project?
17:41:24 <spectranaut> cyns: I think they do more like complex controls, but we could ask
17:41:54 <spectranaut> siri: in the no alt, but title, title becomes the desc? if role=decorative....
17:42:09 <spectranaut> jamesn: I think we aren't sure, we are not yet discussing actual implementations
17:42:46 <spectranaut> Matt_King: if the role is decorative, you can put aria-label, like any other image?
17:43:03 <jamesn> q?
17:43:09 <jamesn> ack cyn
17:43:09 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say alt="" title="string" is too obscure. Would be better to add an html or aria attribute describing this type of medium-importance image
17:43:18 <cyns> q+ to say that I don't love "decorative" would like a word that describes this medium-importance type of image
17:43:26 <spectranaut> CurtBellew: in that case, if we had an alt attribute with text, and role=decorative, and the screen reader decides when and where to read it?
17:43:58 <jamesn> agenda?
17:43:59 <spectranaut> scotto: image with alt="" (means presentational image), but then if you add title, then you are giving the browser mixed messages
17:44:13 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:44:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/02-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:45:43 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: are you saying role=presentation title=somestring and alt="" would be the same as role=image title=somestring? (I think I got that)
17:46:08 <MarkMcCarthy> scotto: essentially, yes (I think, Scott?)
17:46:09 <jamesn> q?
17:46:13 <jamesn> ack cyns
17:46:13 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that I don't love "decorative" would like a word that describes this medium-importance type of image
17:46:39 <siri> semi decorative lol
17:46:40 <jamesn> "evocative" ;)
17:46:42 <MarkMcCarthy> cyns: i'm not a fan of the word "decorative", it's been used to mean "unimportant" for so long
17:46:59 <spectranaut> scotto: I agree. I'm open to other names
17:47:26 <chlane> q+
17:47:49 <jamesn> ack chlane
17:48:11 <myasonik> q+
17:48:18 <spectranaut> chlane: the great thing about this, anecdotally, I've been hiding content...
17:48:27 <spectranaut> chlane: that I think people might want to see
17:48:34 <spectranaut> chlane: I think "decorative" is a good word though
17:48:36 <jamesn> ack myasonik
17:49:27 <spectranaut> myasonik: I like the importance idea -- because I can easily imagine other scenarios
17:49:54 <chlane> fluff setting
17:50:11 <spectranaut> dakahn: I like the idea of the user coming to the content with their own context, people might be just wanting to get something done on a platform they know, in other scenarios maybe they have time and want to see/know about all the content
17:50:44 <spectranaut> dakahn: I like the idea of better alt tags, maybe this could encourage? if you know that some people choose to experience it with the content you have otherwise written
17:50:57 <MarkMcCarthy> General +1 to the entire convo - don't want to take time to say so :)
17:50:59 <spectranaut> jamesn: sounds like people have general agreement! cool
17:51:20 <spectranaut> CurtBellew: there is nothing about a contextual image. helps to establish context
17:51:25 <jamesn> agenda?
17:51:46 <spectranaut> jamesn: consider this general approval to keep going
17:52:21 <spectranaut> scotto: I've given myself more work! I'll reach out to AT people
17:52:32 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:52:32 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Does aria-hidden obey DOM or AX tree ancestors? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1714 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:54:08 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: we talked about this before right?
17:54:15 <MarkMcCarthy> spectranaut: yep - discussion in the issue
17:55:10 <spectranaut> what does "aria-hidden" mean? james teh thinks the node is ignored/does not effect the accessibility tree?
17:55:36 <MarkMcCarthy> s/what does/Matt_King: what does
17:55:56 <spectranaut> Matt_King: what do AUTHORS think? this is the important question. aria-hidden might be expected to behave like "display: none"
17:57:08 <spectranaut> cyns: I'm confused, it sounds like aria-hidden.... it does hide dom children? I don't know what authors expect it to do with "owns" or "control" based children
17:57:16 <spectranaut> cyns: I woudn't expect that to work
17:57:46 <spectranaut> MarkMcCarthy: definitely not controls, owns is defined as reorganizing inheritance specifically for the accessibility tree
17:57:56 <spectranaut> s/MarkMcCarthy/Matt_King/
17:58:22 <spectranaut> cyns: I think we need to look at the performance impacts, and how confused authors are about it
17:58:52 <spectranaut> q+
18:00:22 <spectranaut> Matt_King: we need to make sure the spec is consistent and clear. we could write that an owned element does not inherit hidden, but it does inherit selected and checked. we need to look at how inheritance works. I think we should be consistent in the ways we treat attributes
18:01:41 <spectranaut> jamesn: probably needs further discussion, lets take up next meeting
18:02:26 <spectranaut> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/06/02-aria-minutes.html spectranaut
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