IRC log of aria on 2022-05-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:05:24 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:05:24 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/05/26-aria-irc
17:05:44 [spectranaut]
zakim, start meeting
17:05:45 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:05:46 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), spectranaut
17:06:09 [spectranaut]
meeting: ARIA WG
17:06:09 [spectranaut]
chair: ValerieYoung
17:06:10 [spectranaut]
agendabot, find agenda
17:06:10 [agendabot]
spectranaut, OK. This may take a minute...
17:06:10 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20220526T130000
17:06:10 [agendabot]
clear agenda
17:06:10 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/38NVpOL
17:06:11 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3sTMt1h
17:06:13 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:06:16 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Should the ARIA spec suggest setting a description on dialogs? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1739
17:06:19 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> indicate what to do with multiple headings in hgroup https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/398
17:06:22 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Does aria-hidden obey DOM or AX tree ancestors? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1714
17:06:25 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Is aria-expanded not supported by the searchbox role? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1680
17:06:28 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> 1.3 triage https://bit.ly/38FoiNn
17:06:48 [chlane]
scribe: clane
17:07:09 [chlane]
zakim,next agendum
17:07:09 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/38NVpOL -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:07:16 [scotto]
present+
17:08:41 [MarkMcCarthy]
present+
17:09:00 [CurtBellew]
present+
17:09:32 [myasonik]
present+
17:09:34 [sarah_higley]
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17:09:38 [sarah_higley]
present+
17:09:39 [Ari_Gilmore]
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17:11:16 [chlane]
DA has a great voice
17:11:20 [chlane]
zakim,next agendum
17:11:20 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3sTMt1h -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:11:37 [MarkMcCarthy]
zakim, close this item
17:11:37 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
17:11:38 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:11:38 [Zakim]
3. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
17:11:40 [MarkMcCarthy]
zakim, take up item 1
17:11:40 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/38NVpOL -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:11:53 [cyns]
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17:12:12 [chlane]
1745 ARIA,
17:12:59 [chlane]
scotto: wording updates just needs review
17:13:42 [chlane]
DA wants to review
17:13:51 [chlane]
Rhagav will assign
17:14:27 [chlane]
mcooper can set up github
17:14:44 [chlane]
accname #160, editorial
17:14:56 [chlane]
spectranaut: will look at it
17:15:07 [jamesn]
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17:15:16 [chlane]
aria 1744, editorial
17:15:30 [chlane]
turn of linting, more editorial
17:15:47 [chlane]
#1743 add files via upload
17:16:19 [MarkMcCarthy]
chlane: this happened to me when i tried to upload my change, something to do with github
17:16:53 [siri]
present +
17:17:00 [MarkMcCarthy]
We're merging together PR and Issue triage today due to some growing pains: moving on to issues now
17:17:02 [chlane]
back to new issue triage
17:17:27 [chlane]
1748, links children presentational true, flag is missing
17:17:48 [chlane]
scotto: 1.4
17:18:14 [chlane]
new issue triage, we put them under releases
17:18:28 [chlane]
1747, limit allowed roles aria-haspopup
17:19:01 [chlane]
scotto: responded, already limited its use,
17:19:25 [chlane]
siri: seeing it used on links
17:20:01 [chlane]
on a link or slider, or textbox, what is the purpose?
17:20:14 [chlane]
why are we adding it?
17:20:31 [chlane]
bryan, it's easier if you have a aria-menu attached
17:20:58 [chlane]
spectranaut: contribute to other discussion in 1747
17:21:04 [chlane]
and close as dupe
17:21:12 [chlane]
core amm 121
17:21:21 [chlane]
being worked on
17:21:45 [chlane]
1746, decorative image role
17:22:06 [chlane]
scotto: wait until next week, 1.4 for now
17:22:21 [chlane]
htmlaam 404
17:22:37 [chlane]
further consideration for naming/
17:22:43 [MarkMcCarthy]
Issue triage is now done
17:22:47 [chlane]
zakim,next agendum
17:22:47 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:23:39 [chlane]
aaronlev: deep dive
17:23:51 [chlane]
popup attribute
17:23:58 [chlane]
rich tooltips
17:24:06 [chlane]
ansynch popup, like a toast
17:24:11 [chlane]
floats at top layer
17:24:16 [chlane]
working on a11y
17:24:26 [chlane]
difficulties
17:24:38 [chlane]
if something just pops up is it an alert by default?
17:25:10 [chlane]
schedule out a couple of weeks
17:25:22 [chlane]
bryan g is out 6/6 - 6/10
17:25:32 [chlane]
aaronlev: 6/2?
17:25:39 [siri]
+1
17:25:43 [chlane]
9AM 6/2
17:25:57 [chlane]
schedule that 9am 6/2
17:25:59 [aaronlev]
https://open-ui.org/components/popup.research.explainer
17:26:42 [chlane]
self organized chaos
17:26:54 [chlane]
scotto: meander through aimlessly
17:27:42 [scotto]
^ appreciate this is in the record
17:27:48 [chlane]
lol
17:28:54 [chlane]
scotto: lets try to do 6/2
17:29:02 [chlane]
will update explainer
17:29:42 [chlane]
zakim,next agendum
17:29:42 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- -> Should the ARIA spec suggest setting a description on dialogs? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1739 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:30:06 [dakahn]
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17:31:04 [chlane]
aaronlev: when a dialogs opens usually the first thing that gets focused ... rambling lol, what do screen readers announced when a dialog opens up?
17:31:19 [chlane]
every sr has a diff huerisitic
17:31:29 [chlane]
some results are not what you want
17:31:50 [chlane]
description should be used instead of hueristic
17:32:20 [chlane]
spectranaut: put in aria-describedby
17:32:29 [chlane]
what would be the spec change?
17:32:48 [chlane]
aaronlev: add "ATs should refer to desc of dialog object"
17:33:02 [chlane]
scotto: happy to take on
17:33:13 [aaronlev]
should prefer description on dialog or alertdialog over a heuristic for reading contents of the dialog
17:33:15 [chlane]
question how
17:33:18 [aaronlev]
ATs should prefer description on dialog or alertdialog over a heuristic for reading contents of the dialog
17:33:23 [chlane]
outside aria scope
17:33:33 [chlane]
what is the expectation for native dialogs
17:33:39 [chlane]
how do we inform
17:33:48 [chlane]
AT how they should handle announcing dialogs
17:33:55 [chlane]
aaronlev: its separate
17:34:08 [chlane]
try to improve hueristic
17:34:13 [chlane]
outside of aria spec
17:34:47 [chlane]
siri: why can't we use aria-describedby?
17:35:08 [chlane]
screen reader should read whole content
17:35:28 [chlane]
programtically focus on heading, so SRs read from top
17:35:31 [chlane]
of content
17:35:49 [chlane]
trying to understand, what this solves?
17:36:08 [chlane]
siri:
17:36:50 [chlane]
using aria-describedby, if the author programmatically places focus, what are gaining
17:37:06 [chlane]
aaronlev: can use either
17:37:14 [chlane]
like labelled or labelledby
17:37:31 [chlane]
we want to make sure users get instructions
17:37:43 [chlane]
author bypass hueristicv
17:38:12 [chlane]
CurtBellew: not having to set focus?
17:38:26 [chlane]
aaronlev: focus should go on first tabbable element
17:38:40 [chlane]
aaronlev: any useful info that is part of the dialog is read
17:38:57 [chlane]
opt in dialog, if you select this such and such poeple will be turned on
17:39:02 [chlane]
ok button is focused
17:39:16 [chlane]
some SRs will read the ok button only
17:39:28 [chlane]
aaronlev: everyone should hear the same thing
17:39:35 [chlane]
the spec should say this
17:39:51 [chlane]
siri: it answers my question
17:40:34 [chlane]
aria-describedby, SRs do specify it, automatic reading is fine, unless there is a lot of content
17:40:48 [chlane]
2-3 paragraphs of text and ok button
17:41:21 [chlane]
scotto: the intent is to make these consistently announce
17:41:41 [chlane]
siri's situation is a design problem
17:41:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
agenda?
17:42:15 [chlane]
scotto: exceptions can be provided
17:42:23 [chlane]
bryan G is in favor of adding
17:42:31 [chlane]
CurtBellew: agrees
17:42:41 [chlane]
spectranaut: discuss further next time
17:42:51 [chlane]
scotto: pushing out scope definition lol
17:43:04 [chlane]
zakim,next agendum
17:43:04 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- -> indicate what to do with multiple headings in hgroup https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/398 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:43:51 [chlane]
aam 398, companion to updated outline algorithm
17:43:59 [chlane]
there is no algorithm
17:44:06 [chlane]
no underlying magic
17:44:26 [chlane]
that tooks away hgroups non incremented powers
17:44:52 [chlane]
relook at it for what it could possible do rather than being a generic
17:45:08 [chlane]
multiple heading elements
17:45:31 [chlane]
single heading followed by a paragraph that represent sub headings
17:45:45 [chlane]
do we want to keep it as a generic
17:46:12 [chlane]
or is there value to exposing as group or heading group
17:46:34 [chlane]
dpub doc subtitle, aligns with heading role,
17:46:41 [chlane]
role=subheading
17:46:50 [chlane]
AT navigate by subheading someday
17:47:16 [chlane]
need to know, do we want to change mapping from generic to something else
17:47:30 [chlane]
paragraphs to subtitles
17:48:19 [chlane]
scotto: hgroup > h1 > h2 > h3
17:48:33 [chlane]
h3's would be downgraded to paragraphs
17:48:49 [chlane]
new content model only allows for a single heading and paragraphs
17:49:13 [chlane]
ARIA would need to be involve for subheadings
17:49:53 [chlane]
jamesn: wait until it shakes out
17:50:02 [chlane]
scotto: makes sense
17:50:15 [chlane]
jamesn: direction of that will provide answer
17:50:29 [chlane]
scott will put in on our radar
17:50:39 [chlane]
scotto: wait until it's needed
17:51:03 [chlane]
same can be said about mapping for hgroup
17:51:17 [chlane]
jamesn: wait to not do it twice, premature
17:51:39 [chlane]
zakim,next agendum
17:51:39 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- -> Does aria-hidden obey DOM or AX tree ancestors? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1714 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:52:04 [chlane]
aaronlev: it should obey AX tree
17:52:19 [chlane]
when it is an accessibility property
17:52:43 [chlane]
spectranaut: safari hasn't implemented aria-owns
17:53:00 [chlane]
FF doesn't respect hiding children
17:53:19 [chlane]
aaronlev: safari aria-owns is the bigger problem
17:53:35 [chlane]
jamesn: not anywhere?
17:53:39 [chlane]
scotto: yeah
17:53:41 [chlane]
jamesn: ouch
17:54:30 [chlane]
sarah_higley: popup and of dom with aria-owns doesn't work in ios voiceover
17:54:47 [chlane]
aaronlev: aria-owns caused a lot of pain
17:54:59 [chlane]
spectranaut: it is on MDN
17:55:19 [chlane]
aaronlev: some ARIA works in some places is a pro=blem
17:56:24 [chlane]
scotto: site called aria owns you
17:57:08 [chlane]
spectranaut: does aria owns obey ax tree
17:57:15 [chlane]
jamesn: just hide that thing as well
17:57:43 [chlane]
jamesn: 2 choices and one is a non starter
17:57:54 [chlane]
aaronlev: it's gotta be using aria-owns
17:57:59 [siri]
lol
17:58:19 [chlane]
spectranaut: soft objection from jamesn
17:59:28 [chlane]
scotto: agree, visible text that is inaccessible
18:00:05 [chlane]
scotto: note popup toggletip where content is pulled in for aria-owns
18:00:18 [chlane]
the element that visually renders is not
18:00:26 [chlane]
aria-owns is a hack
18:00:39 [chlane]
if you get burned by it there you go
18:01:05 [chlane]
cc jcraig about status of aria-owns in safari and we agree
18:01:55 [chlane]
rrsa, make minutes
18:02:24 [chlane]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/26-aria-minutes.html chlane
18:10:03 [bkardell_]
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18:31:52 [spectranaut]
scribe: chlame
18:31:55 [spectranaut]
scribe: chlane
18:32:11 [spectranaut]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:32:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/26-aria-minutes.html spectranaut
18:40:21 [chlane]
not sure if anyone can see this but I am unable to email the minutes to everyone
18:47:37 [spectranaut]
Hmm I wonder why, I'll email them for you, chlane
18:51:11 [myasonik]
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