17:05:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:05:24 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/05/26-aria-irc
17:05:44 <spectranaut> zakim, start meeting
17:05:45 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:05:46 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), spectranaut
17:06:09 <spectranaut>  meeting: ARIA WG
17:06:09 <spectranaut> chair: ValerieYoung
17:06:10 <spectranaut> agendabot, find agenda
17:06:10 <agendabot> spectranaut, OK. This may take a minute...
17:06:10 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20220526T130000
17:06:10 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:06:10 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/38NVpOL
17:06:11 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3sTMt1h
17:06:13 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:06:16 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Should the ARIA spec suggest setting a description on dialogs? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1739
17:06:19 <agendabot> agenda+  -> indicate what to do with multiple headings in hgroup https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/398
17:06:22 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Does aria-hidden obey DOM or AX tree ancestors? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1714
17:06:25 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Is aria-expanded not supported by the searchbox role? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1680
17:06:28 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 triage https://bit.ly/38FoiNn
17:06:48 <chlane> scribe: clane
17:07:09 <chlane> zakim,next agendum
17:07:09 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/38NVpOL -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:07:16 <scotto> present+
17:08:41 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:09:00 <CurtBellew> present+
17:09:32 <myasonik> present+
17:09:34 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria
17:09:38 <sarah_higley> present+
17:09:39 <Ari_Gilmore> Ari_Gilmore has joined #aria
17:11:16 <chlane> DA has a great voice
17:11:20 <chlane> zakim,next agendum
17:11:20 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3sTMt1h -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:11:37 <MarkMcCarthy> zakim, close this item
17:11:37 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
17:11:38 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:11:38 <Zakim> 3. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
17:11:40 <MarkMcCarthy> zakim, take up item 1
17:11:40 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/38NVpOL -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:11:53 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:12:12 <chlane> 1745 ARIA,
17:12:59 <chlane> scotto: wording updates just needs review
17:13:42 <chlane> DA wants to review
17:13:51 <chlane> Rhagav will assign
17:14:27 <chlane> mcooper can set up github
17:14:44 <chlane> accname #160, editorial
17:14:56 <chlane> spectranaut: will look at it
17:15:07 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:15:16 <chlane> aria 1744, editorial
17:15:30 <chlane> turn of linting, more editorial
17:15:47 <chlane> #1743 add files via upload
17:16:19 <MarkMcCarthy> chlane: this happened to me when i tried to upload my change, something to do with github
17:16:53 <siri> present +
17:17:00 <MarkMcCarthy> We're merging together PR and Issue triage today due to some growing pains: moving on to issues now
17:17:02 <chlane> back to new issue triage
17:17:27 <chlane> 1748, links children presentational true, flag is missing
17:17:48 <chlane> scotto: 1.4
17:18:14 <chlane> new issue triage, we put them under releases
17:18:28 <chlane> 1747, limit allowed roles aria-haspopup
17:19:01 <chlane> scotto: responded, already limited its use,
17:19:25 <chlane> siri: seeing it used on links
17:20:01 <chlane> on a link or slider, or textbox, what is the purpose?
17:20:14 <chlane> why are we adding it?
17:20:31 <chlane> bryan, it's easier if you have a aria-menu attached
17:20:58 <chlane> spectranaut: contribute to other discussion in 1747
17:21:04 <chlane> and close as dupe
17:21:12 <chlane> core amm 121
17:21:21 <chlane> being worked on
17:21:45 <chlane> 1746, decorative image role
17:22:06 <chlane> scotto: wait until next week, 1.4 for now
17:22:21 <chlane> htmlaam 404
17:22:37 <chlane> further consideration for naming/
17:22:43 <MarkMcCarthy> Issue triage is now done
17:22:47 <chlane> zakim,next agendum
17:22:47 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:23:39 <chlane> aaronlev: deep dive
17:23:51 <chlane> popup attribute
17:23:58 <chlane> rich tooltips
17:24:06 <chlane> ansynch popup, like a toast
17:24:11 <chlane> floats at top layer
17:24:16 <chlane> working on a11y
17:24:26 <chlane> difficulties
17:24:38 <chlane> if something just pops up is it an alert by default?
17:25:10 <chlane> schedule out a couple of weeks
17:25:22 <chlane> bryan g is out 6/6 - 6/10
17:25:32 <chlane> aaronlev: 6/2?
17:25:39 <siri> +1
17:25:43 <chlane> 9AM 6/2
17:25:57 <chlane> schedule that 9am 6/2
17:25:59 <aaronlev> https://open-ui.org/components/popup.research.explainer
17:26:42 <chlane> self organized chaos
17:26:54 <chlane> scotto: meander through aimlessly
17:27:42 <scotto> ^ appreciate this is in the record
17:27:48 <chlane> lol
17:28:54 <chlane> scotto: lets try to do 6/2
17:29:02 <chlane> will update explainer
17:29:42 <chlane> zakim,next agendum
17:29:42 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Should the ARIA spec suggest setting a description on dialogs? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1739 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:30:06 <dakahn> dakahn has joined #aria
17:31:04 <chlane> aaronlev: when a dialogs opens usually the first thing that gets focused ... rambling lol, what do screen readers announced when a dialog opens up?
17:31:19 <chlane> every sr has a diff huerisitic
17:31:29 <chlane> some results are not what you want
17:31:50 <chlane> description should be used instead of hueristic
17:32:20 <chlane> spectranaut: put in aria-describedby
17:32:29 <chlane> what would be the spec change?
17:32:48 <chlane> aaronlev: add "ATs should refer to desc of dialog object"
17:33:02 <chlane> scotto: happy to take on
17:33:13 <aaronlev> should prefer description on dialog or alertdialog over a heuristic for reading contents of the dialog
17:33:15 <chlane> question how
17:33:18 <aaronlev> ATs should prefer description on dialog or alertdialog over a heuristic for reading contents of the dialog
17:33:23 <chlane> outside aria scope
17:33:33 <chlane> what is the expectation for native dialogs
17:33:39 <chlane> how do we inform
17:33:48 <chlane> AT how they should handle announcing dialogs
17:33:55 <chlane> aaronlev: its separate
17:34:08 <chlane> try to improve hueristic
17:34:13 <chlane> outside of aria spec
17:34:47 <chlane> siri: why can't we use aria-describedby?
17:35:08 <chlane> screen reader should read whole content
17:35:28 <chlane> programtically focus on heading, so SRs read from top
17:35:31 <chlane> of content
17:35:49 <chlane> trying to understand, what this solves?
17:36:08 <chlane> siri:
17:36:50 <chlane> using aria-describedby, if the author programmatically places focus, what are gaining
17:37:06 <chlane> aaronlev: can use either
17:37:14 <chlane> like labelled or labelledby
17:37:31 <chlane> we want to make sure users get instructions
17:37:43 <chlane> author bypass hueristicv
17:38:12 <chlane> CurtBellew: not having to set focus?
17:38:26 <chlane> aaronlev: focus should go on first tabbable element
17:38:40 <chlane> aaronlev: any useful info that is part of the dialog is read
17:38:57 <chlane> opt in dialog, if you select this such and such poeple will be turned on
17:39:02 <chlane> ok button is focused
17:39:16 <chlane> some SRs will read the ok button only
17:39:28 <chlane> aaronlev: everyone should hear the same thing
17:39:35 <chlane> the spec should say this
17:39:51 <chlane> siri: it answers my question
17:40:34 <chlane> aria-describedby, SRs do specify it, automatic reading is fine, unless there is a lot of content
17:40:48 <chlane> 2-3 paragraphs of text and ok button
17:41:21 <chlane> scotto: the intent is to make these consistently announce
17:41:41 <chlane> siri's situation is a design problem
17:41:44 <MarkMcCarthy> agenda?
17:42:15 <chlane> scotto: exceptions can be provided
17:42:23 <chlane> bryan G is in favor of adding
17:42:31 <chlane> CurtBellew: agrees
17:42:41 <chlane> spectranaut: discuss further next time
17:42:51 <chlane> scotto: pushing out scope definition lol
17:43:04 <chlane> zakim,next agendum
17:43:04 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> indicate what to do with multiple headings in hgroup https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/398 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:43:51 <chlane> aam 398, companion to updated outline algorithm
17:43:59 <chlane> there is no algorithm
17:44:06 <chlane> no underlying magic
17:44:26 <chlane> that tooks away hgroups non incremented powers
17:44:52 <chlane> relook at it for what it could possible do rather than being a generic
17:45:08 <chlane> multiple heading elements
17:45:31 <chlane> single heading followed by a paragraph that represent sub headings
17:45:45 <chlane> do we want to keep it as a generic
17:46:12 <chlane> or is there value to exposing as group or heading group
17:46:34 <chlane> dpub doc subtitle, aligns with heading role,
17:46:41 <chlane> role=subheading
17:46:50 <chlane> AT navigate by subheading someday
17:47:16 <chlane> need to know, do we want to change mapping from generic to something else
17:47:30 <chlane> paragraphs to subtitles
17:48:19 <chlane> scotto: hgroup > h1 > h2 > h3
17:48:33 <chlane> h3's would be downgraded to paragraphs
17:48:49 <chlane> new content model only allows for a single heading and paragraphs
17:49:13 <chlane> ARIA would need to be involve for subheadings
17:49:53 <chlane> jamesn: wait until it shakes out
17:50:02 <chlane> scotto: makes sense
17:50:15 <chlane> jamesn: direction of that will provide answer
17:50:29 <chlane> scott will put in on our radar
17:50:39 <chlane> scotto: wait until it's needed
17:51:03 <chlane> same can be said about mapping for hgroup
17:51:17 <chlane> jamesn: wait to not do it twice, premature
17:51:39 <chlane> zakim,next agendum
17:51:39 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Does aria-hidden obey DOM or AX tree ancestors? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1714 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:52:04 <chlane> aaronlev: it should obey AX tree
17:52:19 <chlane> when it is an accessibility property
17:52:43 <chlane> spectranaut: safari hasn't implemented aria-owns
17:53:00 <chlane> FF doesn't respect hiding children
17:53:19 <chlane> aaronlev: safari aria-owns is the bigger problem
17:53:35 <chlane> jamesn: not anywhere?
17:53:39 <chlane> scotto: yeah
17:53:41 <chlane> jamesn: ouch
17:54:30 <chlane> sarah_higley: popup and of dom with aria-owns doesn't work in ios voiceover
17:54:47 <chlane> aaronlev: aria-owns caused a lot of pain
17:54:59 <chlane> spectranaut: it is on MDN
17:55:19 <chlane> aaronlev: some ARIA works in some places is a pro=blem
17:56:24 <chlane> scotto: site called aria owns you
17:57:08 <chlane> spectranaut: does aria owns obey ax tree
17:57:15 <chlane> jamesn: just hide that thing as well
17:57:43 <chlane> jamesn: 2 choices and one is a non starter
17:57:54 <chlane> aaronlev: it's gotta be using aria-owns
17:57:59 <siri> lol
17:58:19 <chlane> spectranaut: soft objection from jamesn
17:59:28 <chlane> scotto: agree, visible text that is inaccessible
18:00:05 <chlane> scotto: note popup toggletip where content is pulled in for aria-owns
18:00:18 <chlane> the element that visually renders is not
18:00:26 <chlane> aria-owns is a hack
18:00:39 <chlane> if you get burned by it there you go
18:01:05 <chlane> cc jcraig about status of aria-owns in safari and we agree
18:01:55 <chlane> rrsa, make minutes
18:02:24 <chlane> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/26-aria-minutes.html chlane
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18:31:52 <spectranaut> scribe: chlame
18:31:55 <spectranaut> scribe: chlane
18:32:11 <spectranaut> rrsagent, make minutes
18:32:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/26-aria-minutes.html spectranaut
18:40:21 <chlane> not sure if anyone can see this but I am unable to email the minutes to everyone
18:47:37 <spectranaut> Hmm I wonder why, I'll email them for you, chlane
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