IRC log of aria-apg on 2022-05-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:01:36 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/05/24-aria-apg-irc
18:01:38 [MarkMcCarthy]
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present+
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rrsagent, make log public
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MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:03:27 [Matt_King]
CHAIR: Matt King
18:03:27 [MarkMcCarthy]
agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/May-24,-2022-Agenda
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present+
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/24-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
18:04:01 [Rich_Noah]
present+
18:04:27 [Matt_King]
agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/May-24%2C-2022-Agenda
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18:08:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Trage
18:08:13 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Triage
18:08:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: wow there's a lot!
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scribe: MarkMcCarthy
18:09:59 [jamesn]
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TOPIC: Guidance on usage of Authoring Practices Guide vs. editor’s drafts
18:10:03 [siri]
present+
18:10:23 [jamesn]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2356
18:10:34 [jongunderson]
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18:11:05 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: 2 issues in this, one on the intro and one on the editor's draft
18:11:23 [jongunderson]
present+ jongund
18:11:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: editor's draft part of this should be straightforward, eventually.
18:12:34 [jongunderson]
https://w3c.github.io/aria-practices
18:13:05 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: the rendering of the main branch (the current "editor's draft") will be replaced by our site here - when we update the main branch, it'll get pushed to the site by the W3C
18:13:14 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: how do we preview things?
18:13:20 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: PRs will have a netlify preview now
18:13:41 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: there's also a netlify preview for the main branch
18:14:03 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: not useful to point people to that though, it's only good for a day or two at atime
18:14:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: approximately this will all happen towards the end of june, but here's still planning to do
18:15:13 [MarkMcCarthy]
MarkMcCarthy: what about their introduction comment?
18:15:30 [MarkMcCarthy]
MarkMcCarthy: part of the plan is to create a TOC, separate the intro out, and make things a little more independent
18:15:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/MarkMcCarthy: part/Matt_King: part
18:17:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: carousel pattern should use localized "aria-roledescription"s for its elements
18:18:10 [jamesn]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2355
18:19:11 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: is that just saying the documentation should make mention of being localized?
18:19:18 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: isn't that the same as aria-label?
18:19:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: aria-labels are usually announced in the PAGE's language, but roles etc. are annouced in the USER's language
18:20:18 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: for roledescription, it can't be automagically translated. it's an ongoing problem with roledescription
18:21:00 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i always thought it was localized the same way the page was
18:21:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: yes AND it's the best we can do, really
18:21:27 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: does the roledescription replace the original name?
18:21:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: it's supposed to
18:21:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: but depends on the implementation
18:22:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: many AT speak both languages
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s/languages/roledescription and name
18:22:23 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: which kind of defeats the purpose
18:22:45 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: should we do something different with roledescription vs label?
18:22:59 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: i think we're doing things right, but we could be clearer on dev's instructions
18:23:07 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: so maybe a note about that somewhere?
18:23:09 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: yeah
18:23:11 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: i can do that
18:24:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: is there an issue changing index to examples in the menubar?
18:25:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: seems like people are having some trouble finding examples
18:25:53 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: going through the patterns section is the way to go right?
18:26:04 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: yeah, but when looking for certain things (like date picker) there's no pattern
18:26:30 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Improve readability - Keep line lengths optimal
18:26:39 [jamesn]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2354
18:26:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: i kind of agree
18:27:07 [MarkMcCarthy]
MarkMcCarthy: it's very wall-of-text-y
18:27:12 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: easily solved with CSS
18:27:16 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: font could be bigger too
18:27:19 [siri]
+1
18:27:27 [MarkMcCarthy]
s3ththompson: this might be from a page without a sidebar
18:27:46 [MarkMcCarthy]
s3ththompson: maybe needs a more consistent column, irrespective of the sidebar
18:27:54 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i'll transfer this to the other repo
18:28:15 [MarkMcCarthy]
s3ththompson: this is probably part of the WAI template itself
18:28:47 [MarkMcCarthy]
Rich_Noah: it's not as apparent when there is a sidebar, but it's very noticable otherwise
18:28:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: so we can file a bug vs. WAI template then?
18:29:00 [MarkMcCarthy]
group: ohyes
18:29:05 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/ohyes/oh yes
18:29:37 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: now issue 108 in the other repo
18:29:46 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i'll ask Shawn about it in the issue
18:30:13 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: assign to Shawn?
18:30:15 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: yep
18:30:37 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Pattern page - add navigation for other patterns on the same level
18:30:56 [jamesn]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2353
18:30:59 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i love this suggestion
18:31:09 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: belongs in the other repo, solved on template level
18:32:31 [jamesn]
github: https://github.com/w3c/wai-aria-practices/issues/109
18:33:45 [MarkMcCarthy]
group: seems like a good plan
18:34:51 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: seems like a straightforward design enhancement
18:35:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: there's something similar in the WAI template, previous forward with a select box as well
18:35:29 [siri]
love having select drop down
18:35:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: can Isaac work on this?
18:35:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
Rich_Noah: we'll get the issue into the backlog and schedule it
18:36:04 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: not urgent!
18:36:20 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: could be a Q3 change
18:37:36 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Home page- The arialabel for the footer element is not descriptive.
18:37:48 [jamesn]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2349
18:38:09 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: this is also a template issue
18:38:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: does it really need an aria-label?
18:38:51 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: there's multiple contentinfos
18:38:59 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: and they're both landmarks?
18:39:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: yes
18:39:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: page content info has last changed, updated by, etc. it COULD be complimentary, but it is content info, in my opinion
18:40:22 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: i'd almost prefer a single footer with two regions inside it - two footers seems wrong
18:40:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: i think so too, there should be one footer, one banner, etc. if they have subsections, use regions
18:41:05 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: two contentinfos seems odd - it's against our landmark guidance, too
18:41:24 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: it says if there's multiple, label them, not sure it's broken.
18:41:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: it's not super easy to combine them
18:41:48 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: i get that - i just don't think it's optimal
18:41:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: +1
18:42:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: from an SR user, it's nice to know the page contentinfo has last update ddate, the site one has general info, etc
18:42:36 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: why not call it a "last updated" Region?
18:43:13 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: right - you generally ignore contentinfo landmarks because they're generally useless. how often is there anything other than a site level one? if you didn't write the site, would you expect another one?
18:43:55 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: the rest of the WAI site has page contentinfo that contains last updated, by who, and acknowledgements
18:45:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: that info gets mixed up with really important info on our pages, like last updated and changelogs
18:45:11 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: generally, this sounds like a template issue. can we punt to them?
18:45:44 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: this hyperspecific thing is a template issue
18:46:05 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/thing is/label thing is
18:46:27 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i'm okay with the current label, but the site label could be enhanced. we could drive it
18:47:23 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Homepage- The header element is nested inside the main element.
18:47:36 [jamesn]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2348
18:48:36 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: oh there's a header around an H1, which isn't needed. and yes, header inside a main element doesn't seem right
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scribe: MarkMcCarthy
18:49:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: back in the XHTML days, the header element defined the heading structure itself
18:50:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: i think it's odd it's not being used to create a banner landmark though
18:50:16 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: i'd say move the header element to the top, leave the H1 alone
18:50:26 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: i think this belongs in the other repo too
18:51:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: so what's the bug, then?
18:51:39 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: the H1 is wrapped in a header; exposed as a banner
18:51:56 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: that's a firefox bug, it's scoped to main vs generic so it's not getting exposed right
18:52:23 [jamesn]
A header element is intended to usually contain the section's heading (an h1–h6 element or an hgroup element), but this is not required. The header element can also be used to wrap a section's table of contents, a search form, or any relevant logos.
18:52:32 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: if they're using the headers this way, they're making banner landmarks
18:52:51 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: with voiceover and safari
18:53:08 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/Matt_King: with/jongunderson: with
18:53:16 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: chromium does not
18:53:21 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: so it's a gecko and webkit bug
18:54:24 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: it's correct and allowed
18:54:30 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: it's allowed, but i don't think it's correct
18:54:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: it contains the section'
18:54:58 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/section'/section's heading right?
18:55:04 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: main is a sectioning element right?
18:55:18 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: it conforms with the spec - Siri, what do you say?
18:55:54 [MarkMcCarthy]
siri: even though it conforms, but if it's not required i'd suggest removing it
18:55:56 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: +1
18:56:26 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: i think we should also file bugs vs. the browsers, don't disagree about removing it
18:56:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: so could someone flag this with firefox and safari?
18:57:07 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: browsers don't seem to expose it in the accessibility info - maybe it's NVDA and VoiceOver then?
18:57:35 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: maybe the accessibility tree itself has a bug then?
18:58:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: remember - we're triaging :)
18:58:23 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: Meeting wrapup
18:58:54 [MarkMcCarthy]
jamesn: might not be as simple as filing bugs with the browsers
18:59:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
siri: i'll do some investigation
18:59:05 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongunderson: i cannot
18:59:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: sounds good - i'll move this to the other issue
18:59:52 [MarkMcCarthy]
zakim, who is here?
18:59:52 [Zakim]
Present: Matt_King, Rich_Noah, siri, jongund
18:59:54 [Zakim]
On IRC I see MarkMcCarthy, jongunderson, jamesn, siri, Rich_Noah, Zakim, RRSAgent, Matt_King, github-bot, s3ththompson, zcorpan, MichaelC, ZoeBijl, trackbot
18:59:59 [MarkMcCarthy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/24-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy
19:01:48 [MarkMcCarthy]
present+ s3ththompson
19:01:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:01:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/24-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy
19:02:00 [MarkMcCarthy]
present+
19:02:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:02:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/24-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy
19:58:16 [jamesn]
github-bot, reboot
19:58:16 [github-bot]
jamesn, Sorry, I can't reboot right now because I have buffered topics in #aria-apg.
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github-bot, help
19:58:39 [github-bot]
jamesn, The commands I understand are:
19:58:39 [github-bot]
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github-bot end topic
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github-bot, end topic
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github-bot, bye
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github-bot, reboot
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jamesn, OK, I'll reboot now.
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