IRC log of webfonts on 2022-05-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:59:46 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/05/17-webfonts-irc
16:01:27 [Vlad]
zakim, start meeting
16:01:27 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:01:28 [Zakim]
Meeting: Web Fonts Working Group Teleconference
16:01:38 [Vlad]
present+
16:01:42 [siterum]
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16:03:09 [sergeym]
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16:04:43 [Garret]
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16:05:22 [chris]
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16:05:29 [chris]
rrsagent, here
16:05:29 [RRSAgent]
See https://www.w3.org/2022/05/17-webfonts-irc#T16-05-29
16:05:33 [chris]
present+
16:05:39 [Garret]
present+
16:05:46 [siterum]
present
16:05:52 [sergeym]
present+
16:09:06 [Garret]
Vlad: introducing new member, Skef.
16:09:40 [Garret]
Skef: progammer, involved in fonts via open source work on font forge. Now at Adobe.
16:10:07 [Garret]
Skef: part of the group now because I'm doing some work on Adobe's internal solution to this. Goal is to transition to whatever specs come out of this group.
16:10:26 [Garret]
Skef: I'm free to share insights from our implementation.
16:10:35 [Garret]
Skef: just started, so still learning.
16:10:39 [jhudson]
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16:11:24 [Garret]
Vald: roots of this work are from the Adobe dynamic augementation. First discussions started in 2016 when multiple impelmentations were proposed.
16:11:52 [Garret]
Vlad: first agenda item - WOFF2 recommendation ammendments
16:12:12 [Garret]
Vlad: some small editorial issues, some link updates, and so on.
16:12:13 [jhudson]
[Waiting for Zoom updates to install]
16:12:27 [Garret]
Vlad: we need formal group review and approval for it to go to final stage.
16:12:43 [Garret]
Vlad: need to say we've tested these changes.
16:13:30 [Vlad]
scribenick: Garret
16:14:15 [Garret]
https://github.com/google/woff2
16:14:21 [Vlad]
WOFF2 issues: https://github.com/w3c/woff/issues/15#issuecomment-1125338474
16:14:59 [Garret]
Garret: update for tests of the woff2 changes. The encoder/decoder implementations have been updated in the https://github.com/google/woff2 code base including tests. Chrome will pull in these changes starting in I believe M102
16:15:13 [Garret]
Garret: I'm unsure on the status of the fonttools implementation. Will follow up on that.
16:17:06 [Garret]
Chris: not seeing the tests in the open source repo.
16:17:32 [Garret]
Garret: ah, looks like we haven't transferred the tests written internally to the open source repo. I'll see if I can get those files open sourced.
16:18:24 [Garret]
Garret: also there are conformance tests that probably need to be updated. I'll track that down.
16:18:28 [chris]
https://github.com/w3c/woff2-tests
16:19:42 [Garret]
Vlad: do we need to public tests to proceed?
16:19:43 [chris]
present+ jhudson
16:19:51 [Garret]
Chris: yes, need something public to point too.
16:19:56 [Vlad]
zakim, list attendees
16:19:56 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Vlad, sergeym, chris, Garret, jhudson
16:20:01 [Garret]
Garret: I'll focus on doing the conformance tests first.
16:20:13 [Vlad]
present+ siterum
16:20:37 [jhudson_]
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16:21:34 [chris]
RESOLVED: publish WOFF2 with corrections made normative
16:21:58 [chris]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:21:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/17-webfonts-minutes.html chris
16:22:16 [chris]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:22:17 [chris]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:22:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/17-webfonts-minutes.html chris
16:23:03 [chris]
Topic: conformance tests demo
16:23:10 [Vlad]
Topic: 2.Patch Subset Server Conformance Tests demo: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2022May/0001.html
16:29:37 [chris]
Test needs an address for the font on the server, plus path to a local copy of that font for checking
16:31:57 [chris]
Also script to test all server-based assertions in the spec
16:32:23 [chris]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:32:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/17-webfonts-minutes.html chris
16:32:45 [Garret]
Vlad: next topic is TPAC attendance in Vancouver, Canada.
16:32:58 [Vlad]
Topic: 3.TPAC 2022 planning: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2022May/0003.html
16:33:34 [Garret]
Vlad: linked email has a form that we will either need a group entry or individual entries.
16:33:42 [Vlad]
Form: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/LogisticsTPAC2022/
16:33:47 [Garret]
Chris: need just one group entry, would be best if Vlad/Garret did it.
16:34:19 [Garret]
Vlad: some of the expected participants are not on this call.
16:34:19 [chris]
I plan to be there
16:34:53 [Garret]
Chris: last week Jason gave us an idea of his attendance plan, not a hard no. May be able to attend in Sept.
16:35:13 [Garret]
Vlad: people who are on this call are you able to attend?
16:35:28 [Garret]
Vlad: Skef?
16:35:42 [Garret]
Skef: not sure, will take up with management chain.
16:36:36 [Garret]
Garret: I should be able to attend.
16:37:05 [Garret]
Sergey: should be able to attend.
16:37:22 [Garret]
Chris: plan to be there.
16:37:52 [Garret]
John: two days after fontstand conference, so question as to whether I'm back or not.
16:38:19 [Garret]
Vlad: I plan to be there.
16:38:45 [Garret]
Vlad: I'll respond to the form.
16:39:34 [Garret]
Vlad: now on to issues
16:40:17 [Garret]
Vlad: re: issue 83. I think the should, should be upgraded to must.
16:44:07 [Garret]
Garret: so this is about method selection I think it's fine to use must as long as it's clear the server is allowed to choose between either method.
16:44:23 [chris]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:44:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/17-webfonts-minutes.html chris
16:44:57 [Garret]
Chris: I can update the text.
16:46:41 [Garret]
Vlad: number 87 requires additional discussion
16:46:53 [Garret]
Vlad: had similar discussion in 2018 in Tokyo about this.
16:47:15 [Garret]
Vlad: about stylistic sets and alternates.
16:47:17 [chris]
https://github.com/w3c/IFT/issues/87
16:49:37 [Garret]
Garret: default set to me is the set of features that are required by default in shaping.
16:50:07 [Garret]
John: I was thinking of non-shaping features. Typographic layout features. Some are on by default, some are off by default.
16:50:43 [Garret]
John: delig for example, small caps, that are part of the typography rather than content.
16:50:51 [Garret]
John: which are specified at the CSS level.
16:51:05 [Garret]
John: without querying the css you don't know what a document might need.
16:51:29 [Garret]
Chris: I can see two ways one the client does CSS analysis, or that the author figures it out.
16:53:00 [Garret]
Garret: what I suggest is we have the default set, allow optional ones to be asked for, and also a mechanism to jsut ask for all.
16:53:36 [jhudson_]
http://tiro.com/John/Enabling_Typography_(OTL).pdf
16:53:39 [Garret]
Vlad: would it be feasible to have a paragraph or two to describe the features in the default set.
16:53:54 [chris]
i/on to issues/Topic: Issues
16:54:00 [chris]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:54:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/17-webfonts-minutes.html chris
16:54:13 [Garret]
John: on page 6
16:54:39 [Garret]
John: everything I'd call default features should be part of the default set as they are required for shaping.
16:54:49 [Garret]
John: eg. there's stuff for arabic, cjk
16:55:22 [Garret]
John: then there's these standard typographic forms, so are used for shaping. It's possible to go through and make a list of the features used by shaping/layout engines.
16:56:03 [Garret]
Skef: we'll have information from css about the feature list. Can you give an example of off by default, that wouldn't be in the css feature list that would still be needed.
16:56:12 [Garret]
John: anything that's needed is on by default.
16:56:21 [Garret]
Skef: anything that's on by default, but not needed?
16:56:25 [Garret]
John: no
16:56:34 [Garret]
John: everytihng from 1 through 3a is needed.
16:56:53 [Garret]
John: this is just GSUB stuff, GPOS is a separate issue, probably all needed.
16:57:16 [Garret]
John: actually there's some GPOS stuff that's used in vertical layout which may not be needed.
16:57:30 [Garret]
Skef: if we could defer to a list of on by default that would be good.
16:57:59 [Garret]
John: I've had a long term goal to revamp the feature registry to make explicit on by defautl, off by default. In the meantime you could use the list in this document.
16:58:26 [Garret]
Garret: I can check with Behdad about on by default in harfbuzz.
16:59:02 [Garret]
John: in harfbuzz fraction feature is off by default. It uses a character trigger for that if the fraction character is present.
17:00:13 [Garret]
Garret: probably want to take a conservative approach and send anything that may be needed by default.
17:00:43 [Garret]
Skef: so does this mean that if it's there we want it.
17:00:45 [Garret]
Garret: yes.
17:02:23 [Garret]
Skef: shouldn't but the burden on the user agent. If there's info somewhere that harfbuzz is going to do a specific thing. We could just have an implicit list, like frac you might need that, but things evolve. So it'd be better to have some mechanism.
17:04:57 [Garret]
John: so subsetting GSUB you've got multiple layers of information, you have lookups, scripts, lang systems. So ideally if you have a document in hindi you've got devanagari characters you can make a decision on default subset based on the fact that it's devanagari. Then you've got the fact that it's in hindi.
17:05:15 [Garret]
John: language system may imply some differences
17:06:47 [Garret]
John: how specific is the subsetting
17:07:10 [Garret]
Garret: it operates at the feature tag level and retains everything that could be reached via the codepoint and feature tag set. So not language specific.
17:07:56 [Garret]
Skef: if you have a set of features that are already there, but you get additional codepoints you may get additional lookups.
17:12:33 [Garret]
Garret: my recommendation we add to the request ability to specify features have/needed and then make a recommended default list that is not a must level requirement. Leave the specific default list selection up to the client.
17:14:33 [Garret]
Skef: concerns about request length and cacheability of requests. Will file an issue on github.
17:14:44 [chris]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:14:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/17-webfonts-minutes.html chris