16:53:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:53:46 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/05/12-aria-irc
16:53:48 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:53:50 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:53:54 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:54:05 <jamesn> agendabot, fetch agenda
16:54:05 <agendabot> jamesn, sorry, I don't understand "fetch agenda". Try "agendabot, help".
16:54:11 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:54:11 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:54:11 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20220512T130000
16:54:11 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:54:11 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3ymUboe
16:54:12 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3sqR9LQ
16:54:14 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:54:17 <agendabot> agenda+  -> TPAC 2022 Survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/83726/ARIATPAC2022attendance/
16:54:20 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Further updates to caption role definition https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1734
16:54:23 <agendabot> agenda+  -> indicate what to do with multiple headings in hgroup https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/398
16:54:26 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Does aria-hidden obey DOM or AX tree ancestors? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1714
16:54:29 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Do we need a notifications API in ARIA https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/832
16:54:32 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 triage https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+no%3Aproject+sort%3Acreated-asc
17:01:42 <spectranaut> present+
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17:04:08 <melsumner> present+
17:04:15 <spectranaut> chair: spectranaut
17:04:17 <jamesn> present+
17:05:02 <scotto> present+
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17:06:21 <jamesn> regrets: SarahHigley
17:06:36 <jamesn> regrets+ AaronLeventhal
17:06:51 <scotto> zakim, next item
17:06:51 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3ymUboe -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:06:53 <jamesn> regrets+ HarrisSchneiderman
17:07:07 <jamesn> regrets+ BryanGaraventa
17:07:17 <jamesn> regrets+ MarkMcCarthy
17:07:28 <scotto> issue 1: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/404  for future discussion
17:10:02 <scotto> issue 2: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1739
17:12:46 <scotto> agenda+ for next meeting and aria 1.4 for now
17:13:09 <scotto> issue 3: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/403
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17:14:10 <scotto> zakim, next item
17:14:10 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3sqR9LQ -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:15:17 <scotto> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1740 - cleaning up associationlist proposal.  PR in progress.  Some review has happened so far
17:15:48 <scotto> jamesn: trying to clean up based on previous feedback and including listitemvalue,key and regular list items needs more thought
17:16:39 <scotto> valerie: https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1738 is next
17:16:49 <jamesn> "<p class="note">The specification does not currently define IDL attributes for ARIA content attributes of types ID reference or ID reference list. Naming of these IDL attributes is being <a href="https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/3515">discussed</a> and may not follow the rules above.</p>"
17:17:36 <scotto> next: https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/pull/117
17:18:02 <scotto> this was assigned for further review.
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17:18:16 <scotto> zakim, next item
17:18:16 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:26 <scotto> any deep dives?
17:18:36 <scotto> jamesn: no meeting next week, so no deep dive
17:19:07 <scotto> valerie: suggestions?  if not now, email us!
17:19:19 <scotto> zakim, next item
17:19:19 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> TPAC 2022 Survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/83726/ARIATPAC2022attendance/ -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:19:46 <scotto> valerie: please fill out the survey in the email i sent regarding if you will come to tpac in person
17:20:12 <scotto> valerie: you can still participate if you can't travel.  2 questions only in the survey!
17:20:27 <scotto> jamesn: 9 responses so far
17:20:32 <scotto> "fine"
17:20:42 <scotto> zakim, next item
17:20:42 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Further updates to caption role definition https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1734 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:21:24 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
17:22:13 <jamesn> scotto: per the issue (#1703) I raised the question if the placement of the caption element is meaningful
17:23:06 <jamesn> scotto: we were firstly trying to make parity with HTML caption and their nesting. but now we are not doing anything with name by encapsulation and someone could use this anywhere and reference with aria-labelledby or describedby
17:23:22 <jamesn> scotto: does it matter where it is placed?
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17:23:36 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:23:38 <jamesn> scotto: do we relax that restriction
17:24:02 <jamesn> melsumner: as a tooling author i like restrictions
17:24:20 <jamesn> matt: not sure I understand the rule
17:24:36 <jamesn> scotto: if you want to provide a caption for the table then it must be the first descendant
17:24:40 <jamesn> q+
17:24:57 <jamesn> scotto: captions have to be in a very particular position
17:25:13 <jamesn> matt: what are the rules on what elements can have role caption?
17:25:34 <jamesn> matt: if someone puts THEAD and TH and puts role caption on a TH
17:25:45 <jamesn> scotto: right now there are no rules written
17:26:06 <jamesn> matt: in an in-between spot where the new roles are being ported over to aria in HTML
17:26:22 <jamesn> scotto: the current table roles indicate that very specific roles are allowed
17:26:30 <jamesn> matt: there are things forbidding
17:26:45 <jamesn> q?
17:27:34 <jamesn> scotto: this is only really relevant when doing a custom ARIA table right now
17:28:02 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: would it be useful to include the caption outside the table?
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17:29:11 <MarkMcCarthy_> matt_king: I thought if aria-desccribed by was on table it got mapped to caption?
17:29:19 <MarkMcCarthy_> jamesn: yes, but it isn't annouced as a caption
17:29:29 <MarkMcCarthy_> matt_king: they aren't called captions INSIDE a table either
17:30:00 <MarkMcCarthy_> matt_king: this is kind of where we ended up with tooltip - basically, is there a need to identify it and explictly call it out? it'll add lots of verbosity
17:30:42 <MarkMcCarthy_> matt_king: you'll hear lots of things like "caption describing [the table on the page]"
17:30:49 <MarkMcCarthy_> jamesn: wouldn't that be good? So you know it's coming?
17:30:54 <MarkMcCarthy_> matt_king: hard to say, sounds noisy
17:32:13 <jamesn> scotto: does allow for caption in a table that has an automatic mapping to name a table - similar to legend and fieldset. Allows a caption to be a child of a group - which is important for the new selectmenu stuff going on
17:33:48 <jamesn> matt: we shouldn't be trying to use aria to fix styling problems.
17:34:04 <jamesn> matt: people sometimes use aria to style things the way they want.
17:34:23 <MarkMcCarthy_> jamesn: struggling to understand the benefit of NOT allowing it elsewhere
17:34:32 <MarkMcCarthy_> jamesn: what pollution are you worried about?
17:34:57 <MarkMcCarthy_> matt: worried about it not being useful, and losing some of it's proximity benefits
17:35:11 <MarkMcCarthy_> matt: e.g. if it's left in the table, the relationship is implicit
17:35:49 <MarkMcCarthy_> spectranaut: i'm thinking kind of the same a matt, at this point
17:36:12 <MarkMcCarthy_> scotto: maybe it should stay as it is, for all of these reasons. it's a SHOULD right now, so maybe it allows for the odd one-off use cases
17:37:50 <jamesn> matt: there is no rendered description for table
17:37:58 <jamesn> scotto: obsolete summary - or title
17:38:19 <jamesn> matt: very common for an aria-labelledby to point to something outside the table
17:38:36 <jamesn> matt: wondering why we have role caption
17:40:17 <jamesn> scotto: figcaption will be a aria-details relationship
17:40:29 <jamesn> scotto: will not perform the same naming function
17:40:41 <jamesn> matt: only figcaption with figure
17:40:56 <jamesn> matt: where else can you use caption
17:41:11 <jamesn> scotto: proposal is that caption can name an optiongroup in the selectmenu
17:41:30 <jamesn> matt: aria-labelledby would be an equivalent there
17:42:31 <jamesn> scotto: there is utility here - as the only way to mark that up is putting a group in a div and hiding it
17:42:44 <jamesn> melsumner: do you need captions for that?
17:45:42 <jamesn> cyns: also has a platform API mapping
17:45:54 <jamesn> cyns: AT could choose to use that
17:48:10 <jamesn> jamesn: in practices use role=presentation
17:48:28 <jamesn> jamesn: probably gets read in virtual cursor
17:48:33 <melsumner> queue+
17:48:40 <jamesn> q-
17:49:10 <spectranaut> ack melsumner
17:49:56 <jamesn> melsumner: one of the comments jamesn made - do we have a list of things that we have worked on but are not priorities for browser developers
17:50:08 <jamesn> melsumner: where would I find these things
17:50:33 <MarkMcCarthy_> jamesn: things like spec language etc. that we don't have agreement on from browser implementers?
17:50:34 <MarkMcCarthy_> melsumner: yes
17:51:00 <MarkMcCarthy_> jamesn: we hvae things on the wiki that have been postponed to 1.4, that's basically the only place. or the editors draft
17:51:28 <MarkMcCarthy_> jamesn: issue is that there's only a handful of people that implement these things - more people won't necessarily help
17:51:58 <MarkMcCarthy_> jamesn: everyone is just.. busy
17:57:34 <jamesn> agenda?
17:58:19 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:58:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/12-aria-minutes.html jamesn
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