14:27:43 RRSAgent has joined #ixml 14:27:43 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/05/10-ixml-irc 14:28:31 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:28:42 Meeting: ixml Group Teleconference 14:29:05 Date: 10 May 2022 14:29:33 tovey-walsh has joined #ixml 14:31:13 norm has joined #ixml 14:33:23 Tom has joined #ixml 14:34:09 Chair: Steven 14:34:50 https://www.w3.org/2022/04/26-ixml-minutes 14:35:07 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/04/26-ixml-minutes 14:35:15 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2022May/0000.html 14:35:29 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2022May/0013.html 14:35:35 Regrets: Michael 14:35:42 Scribe: Tom 14:35:46 rrsagent, make minutes 14:35:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/10-ixml-minutes.html Steven 14:36:13 Topic: Review of Action Items 14:37:16 Action: Issue #26 - Steven thinks is done. 14:38:28 All ACTIONs done; some waiting on Steven to merge 14:38:42 Action: Steven to merge changes from action this week 14:40:18 Implementations MAY report errors (even though errors represent MUST requirements) 14:40:38 Topic: Status of Implmentations 14:41:30 JLW: javascript implmentation is mature enough to run tests - and runs them all without crashing! 6/200 tests failing in about 3.4s to run them all 14:41:33 All: Well done! 14:41:53 JLW: 300 ms to do iXML 'dog food' test 14:42:09 (transformation of iXML into XML) 14:42:49 JLW: I hadn't quite understood the precedence of marks in the spec 14:43:05 JLW: also really strikes me how whitespace profligate it has become 14:43:38 JLW: makes retention of comment position very tricky 14:46:21 JLW:All tests assume new lines (etc) assume unix: problems for me on windows 14:46:59 Action: JLW to raise issues for windows whitespace issues 14:47:56 Action: JLW to raise issues illustrating problems with comments in xml representation (e.g. comments on either side of repetition operator) 14:48:35 SP: delivering tutorial to Prague 14:48:57 SP: my implementation currently down due to ISP issues: will be up again soon. 14:49:17 s/JLW/JWL/G 14:49:43 Topic: Review and resolutions of issues 14:50:16 #25 and #26 are closed, only leaves #66 14:50:40 NDW: I made an effort to summarize as 3 choices. I think we have to pick one. 14:51:13 SP: I don't want to be against namespaces in the output, but have strong feelings about how they are specified. I want them to be less specific to a single output format. 14:52:38 SP: If we are to do this, I want it to be more about how we control the input and output generally, not just namespaces in XML 14:52:50 SP: I also need to understand the objections to my namespaces proposal 14:54:29 NDW: @ mark identifies attributes. xmlns as an attribute name is forbidden. 14:55:23 SP: a parser has to recognise it as not an attribute: that notation was chosen for backwards compatibility. But it still looks like an attribute. Serialised as text, it is identical. 14:56:42 JWL: there are two scenarios: 1/ where we run iXML and get out serialised XML that is processed later. 2/ (more frequently) the iXML output is not serialised, but uses a build tree model which is used for further processing. Under that circumstance, it is not an attribute. 14:58:59 NDW: it also puts enormous pressure on the grammar author: namespace declarations are now local, and open up the grammar author to a number of issues. 15:00:22 SP: What stops my system from working now? 15:01:08 TFJH: at the moment, the spec does not proscribe xmlns: attributes being processed differently from XML attributes, and would result in badly formed XML 15:02:08 JWL: At the moment namespace definitions under SP's proposal would allow namespaces to be bound to arbitrary URLs 15:02:31 NDW: there are a number of cans of worms that are enabled by this behaviour, and I can see no reasons to do so. 15:06:30 TFJH: I want to return to producing non-XML outputs. My concern is that the grammar is providing necessary information to make implicit information in the input into explicit information in the output (XML); furthermore I am concerned that the information necessary in the grammar depends on the output format. 15:08:15 BTW: It is my understanding that the Spec explicitly talks about XML output: a generalised output may be laudable, but it would require major re-writes to the spec 15:08:56 SP: But iXML isn't specific to XML, it's about an interchange format 15:09:42 TFJH: Although I think how you envisage iXML is of course important, what iXML IS is defined in the spec, and that is explicitly XML. 15:12:24 TFJH: May I suggest that we table non-XML outputs for V.Future 15:12:39 (General agreement) 15:15:57 Returning to namespaces, options (from Norm's email) are 1) simple namespaces 2) Namespaces as attributes (implementations to handle as namespace declarations) 3) status quo 15:23:45 ACTION: Option 3 15:24:13 NDW: I will be making a proposal to forbid xmlns at the start of attribute names. 15:24:59 TFJH: what Norm is asking for is already the case, IMO (well formedness constraint) 15:25:08 NDW: That's true, and is enough for me for today. 15:25:15 Topic: AOB 15:25:47 rrsagent, make minutes 15:25:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/10-ixml-minutes.html Tom