IRC log of ixml on 2022-05-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:27:43 [RRSAgent]

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/05/10-ixml-irc

14:28:31 [Steven]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:28:42 [Steven]

Meeting: ixml Group Teleconference

14:29:05 [Steven]

Date: 10 May 2022

14:29:33 [tovey-walsh]

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14:31:13 [norm]

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14:33:23 [Tom]

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14:34:09 [Steven]

Chair: Steven

14:34:50 [Tom]

https://www.w3.org/2022/04/26-ixml-minutes

14:35:07 [Steven]

Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/04/26-ixml-minutes

14:35:15 [Tom]

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2022May/0000.html

14:35:29 [Steven]

Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2022May/0013.html

14:35:35 [Steven]

Regrets: Michael

14:35:42 [Tom]

Scribe: Tom

14:35:46 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:35:46 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/10-ixml-minutes.html Steven

14:36:13 [Tom]

Topic: Review of Action Items

14:37:16 [Tom]

Action: Issue #26 - Steven thinks is done.

14:38:28 [Tom]

All ACTIONs done; some waiting on Steven to merge

14:38:42 [Tom]

Action: Steven to merge changes from action this week

14:40:18 [Tom]

Implementations MAY report errors (even though errors represent MUST requirements)

14:40:38 [Tom]

Topic: Status of Implmentations

14:41:30 [Tom]

JLW: javascript implmentation is mature enough to run tests - and runs them all without crashing! 6/200 tests failing in about 3.4s to run them all

14:41:33 [Tom]

All: Well done!

14:41:53 [Tom]

JLW: 300 ms to do iXML 'dog food' test

14:42:09 [Tom]

(transformation of iXML into XML)

14:42:49 [Tom]

JLW: I hadn't quite understood the precedence of marks in the spec

14:43:05 [Tom]

JLW: also really strikes me how whitespace profligate it has become

14:43:38 [Tom]

JLW: makes retention of comment position very tricky

14:46:21 [Tom]

JLW:All tests assume new lines (etc) assume unix: problems for me on windows

14:46:59 [Tom]

Action: JLW to raise issues for windows whitespace issues

14:47:56 [Tom]

Action: JLW to raise issues illustrating problems with comments in xml representation (e.g. comments on either side of repetition operator)

14:48:35 [Tom]

SP: delivering tutorial to Prague

14:48:57 [Tom]

SP: my implementation currently down due to ISP issues: will be up again soon.

14:49:17 [Steven]

s/JLW/JWL/G

14:49:43 [Tom]

Topic: Review and resolutions of issues

14:50:16 [Tom]

#25 and #26 are closed, only leaves #66

14:50:40 [Tom]

NDW: I made an effort to summarize as 3 choices. I think we have to pick one.

14:51:13 [Tom]

SP: I don't want to be against namespaces in the output, but have strong feelings about how they are specified. I want them to be less specific to a single output format.

14:52:38 [Tom]

SP: If we are to do this, I want it to be more about how we control the input and output generally, not just namespaces in XML

14:52:50 [Tom]

SP: I also need to understand the objections to my namespaces proposal

14:54:29 [Tom]

NDW: @ mark identifies attributes. xmlns as an attribute name is forbidden.

14:55:23 [Tom]

SP: a parser has to recognise it as not an attribute: that notation was chosen for backwards compatibility. But it still looks like an attribute. Serialised as text, it is identical.

14:56:42 [Tom]

JWL: there are two scenarios: 1/ where we run iXML and get out serialised XML that is processed later. 2/ (more frequently) the iXML output is not serialised, but uses a build tree model which is used for further processing. Under that circumstance, it is not an attribute.

14:58:59 [Tom]

NDW: it also puts enormous pressure on the grammar author: namespace declarations are now local, and open up the grammar author to a number of issues.

15:00:22 [Tom]

SP: What stops my system from working now?

15:01:08 [Tom]

TFJH: at the moment, the spec does not proscribe xmlns: attributes being processed differently from XML attributes, and would result in badly formed XML

15:02:08 [Tom]

JWL: At the moment namespace definitions under SP's proposal would allow namespaces to be bound to arbitrary URLs

15:02:31 [Tom]

NDW: there are a number of cans of worms that are enabled by this behaviour, and I can see no reasons to do so.

15:06:30 [Tom]

TFJH: I want to return to producing non-XML outputs. My concern is that the grammar is providing necessary information to make implicit information in the input into explicit information in the output (XML); furthermore I am concerned that the information necessary in the grammar depends on the output format.

15:08:15 [Tom]

BTW: It is my understanding that the Spec explicitly talks about XML output: a generalised output may be laudable, but it would require major re-writes to the spec

15:08:56 [Tom]

SP: But iXML isn't specific to XML, it's about an interchange format

15:09:42 [Tom]

TFJH: Although I think how you envisage iXML is of course important, what iXML IS is defined in the spec, and that is explicitly XML.

15:12:24 [Tom]

TFJH: May I suggest that we table non-XML outputs for V.Future

15:12:39 [Tom]

(General agreement)

15:15:57 [Tom]

Returning to namespaces, options (from Norm's email) are 1) simple namespaces 2) Namespaces as attributes (implementations to handle as namespace declarations) 3) status quo

15:23:45 [Tom]

ACTION: Option 3

15:24:13 [Tom]

NDW: I will be making a proposal to forbid xmlns at the start of attribute names.

15:24:59 [Tom]

TFJH: what Norm is asking for is already the case, IMO (well formedness constraint)

15:25:08 [Tom]

NDW: That's true, and is enough for me for today.

15:25:15 [Tom]

Topic: AOB

15:25:47 [Tom]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:25:47 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/05/10-ixml-minutes.html Tom