15:57:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-dive
15:57:35 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/28-aria-dive-irc
15:57:37 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:57:38 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
15:58:05 <jamesn> meeting: OpenUI Catchup
15:58:11 <jamesn> chair: jamesNurthen
15:58:36 <jamesn> agenda+ What has openUI been up to since we last metWhat is the overall process for group collaboration?
15:58:36 <jamesn> what do OpenUI anticipate needing our assistance / feedback on
15:58:36 <jamesn> communication mechanisms
15:58:36 <jamesn> How can each group more effectively help the other?
15:58:36 <jamesn> Gaps in ARIA which need filling?
15:58:37 <jamesn> Things ARIA is working on that need prototypes?
15:59:27 <jamesn> agenda+ What has openUI been up to since we last met
15:59:27 <jamesn> agenda+ What is the overall process for group collaboration?
15:59:27 <jamesn> agenda+ what do OpenUI anticipate needing our assistance / feedback on
15:59:27 <jamesn> agenda+ communication mechanisms
15:59:27 <jamesn> agenda+ How can each group more effectively help the other?
15:59:28 <jamesn> agenda+ Gaps in ARIA which need filling?
15:59:28 <jamesn> agenda+ Things ARIA is working on that need prototypes?
15:59:28 <jamesn> agenda?
15:59:39 <jamesn> zakim, drop item 1
15:59:39 <Zakim> agendum 1, What has openUI been up to since we last metWhat is the overall process for group collaboration?, dropped
15:59:48 <jamesn> agenda?
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16:01:16 <JonathanNeal> !present
16:01:25 <jamesn> present+
16:01:26 <chrisdholt> present+
16:01:32 <scotto> present+
16:01:37 <siri_> siri_ has joined #aria-dive
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16:05:04 <chlane> scribe chlane
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16:05:19 <spectranaut> present+
16:05:32 <bkardell_> present+
16:05:32 <hdv> present+
16:05:35 <chlane> scribe: chlane
16:05:36 <dandclark> present+
16:05:40 <jcraig> present+
16:05:43 <chlane> Zakim,next agendum
16:05:43 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- What has openUI been up to since we last met -- taken up [from jamesn]
16:05:59 <chlane> jcraig: last met 9 months ago
16:06:11 <chlane> 3 minute catchup from open ui?
16:06:20 <chlane> what you've been working on
16:06:45 <chlane> bkardell_: Scott can do it?
16:06:57 <chlane> scotto: been in both groups
16:07:29 <chlane> largely seen work with popup tab component, select menu as a replacement for ?
16:07:55 <chlane> github issuess. less insight since a lot precedes my joining
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16:08:00 <JonathanNeal> present+
16:08:05 <aaronlev> present+
16:08:20 <chlane> research docs are screen shots
16:08:24 <chlane> from patterns
16:08:38 <chlane> more recently poking at reviews
16:08:48 <chlane> bkardell_: decent summarry
16:08:54 <chlane> those were the focus
16:09:03 <chlane> focus group has moved to open ui
16:09:11 <chlane> microsofts proposal
16:09:18 <chlane> early, css toggles
16:09:36 <chlane> chrisdholt: hope is to not be to additive
16:09:41 <chlane> add to existing patterns
16:09:50 <chlane> travis has current state
16:10:01 <chlane> bkardell_: recommends watching recording
16:10:15 <chlane> jamesn: move on?
16:10:46 <chlane> hdv: tabs, panels accordions, what is a good ux for AT
16:10:53 <chlane> what is in the wild
16:11:04 <chlane> whats devs want and what works for AT
16:11:11 <chlane> bkardell_: open UI is a long process
16:11:15 <chlane> twists turns
16:11:23 <chlane> popups great example
16:11:38 <chlane> scotto helped
16:12:00 <chlane> matt, not familiar with process
16:12:14 <chlane> jamesn: come into that later in agenda
16:12:44 <chlane> siri_: browsers not acting  consistently?
16:12:48 <chlane> jamesn: not open UI related
16:13:06 <chlane> jamesn: zakim, next agendum
16:13:19 <bkardell_> maybe it is helpful to say that openui is a special part of wicg - it is for pre-standards incubation, a lot of things in there might never make it all the way to standards but can at least help libraries align and inform, etc
16:13:26 <chlane> Zakim, next agendum
16:13:26 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- What is the overall process for group collaboration? -- taken up [from jamesn]
16:13:54 <chlane> jamesn: next to skip over
16:14:41 <siri_> present+
16:14:42 <chlane> right now, someone works on something come back with prototypes not plugged in when something is missing from a11y point of view
16:14:53 <chlane> we need implmentation in real components
16:15:03 <chlane> open ui has been workig around issues
16:15:12 <chlane> come to us when there is a gap
16:15:21 <chlane> we go to you when we need a feature
16:15:28 <chlane> how to make that happen?
16:15:33 <chlane> JonathanNeal:
16:15:57 <jamesn> q?
16:16:02 <chlane> jamesn: JonathanNeal: the ideas that come through, articulate a need, phase concepts, prototyping
16:16:11 <chlane> speculative concepts, explainers
16:16:21 <chlane> at this point its called a prototype
16:16:37 <chlane> before ideation, come to ARIA
16:16:45 <chlane> before explainer or prototype
16:16:54 <chlane> chrisdholt: agree
16:17:02 <chlane> to validate expectations
16:17:08 <chlane> don't match reality
16:17:20 <chlane> opinions internally about our gaps
16:17:31 <chlane> more holistic solution, larger mindshare
16:17:31 <jamesn> q?
16:17:43 <bkardell_> q+
16:17:47 <hdv> q+
16:17:51 <bkardell_> q-
16:17:54 <JonathanNeal> I would like to note that I am not sick of hearing Scott O’Hara talk.
16:17:54 <scotto> q+
16:18:01 <chlane> matt , like shift left
16:18:24 <chlane> investigations, explainers is supposed to involve user research
16:18:44 <chlane> before going forward to something implemented in all browsers
16:18:55 <jamesn> q?
16:18:59 <chlane> not certain what most usable/accessible approach might be
16:19:05 <chlane> can anyone answer that?
16:19:06 <bkardell_> q+
16:19:15 <chlane> what is the investigation phase?
16:19:28 <chlane> hdv: look at what APG does
16:19:35 <chlane> not user tested
16:19:40 <chlane> as far as we know
16:19:57 <chlane> not just based on assumptions
16:20:03 <chlane> we can work together on that
16:20:11 <JonathanNeal> I would add that the investigation phase involves a significant effort to collect Prior Art.
16:20:23 <chlane> matt partnering would be great
16:20:34 <chlane> apg tries to dumnb things down
16:20:39 <chlane> avoid complex patterns
16:20:49 <chlane> a lot of things that people want to do
16:20:57 <chlane> that we have not addressed
16:21:15 <chlane> in some cases due to lack of agreement
16:21:42 <chlane> in some case we have to work around a11y api limitations
16:21:59 <hdv> q-
16:22:00 <jamesn> q?
16:22:05 <jamesn> ack scotto
16:22:40 <chlane> scotto: shifting left, including Aria working group
16:23:01 <siri_> +1 scott
16:23:07 <chlane> dont understand the need for a breadcrumb component
16:23:30 <chrisdholt> q+
16:23:31 <chlane> open ui is looking at other design systems as validation to make something
16:23:49 <JonathanNeal> q+
16:23:52 <chlane> design system doesn't mean it is accessible
16:24:07 <chlane> matt, priorities where poeple spend there time
16:24:30 <chlane> browsers do things that are different from native context
16:24:52 <chlane> multiselect listbox is example of hard to use
16:25:12 <chlane> scotto: focus could be relooked at
16:25:21 <jamesn> ack bkardell_
16:25:31 <chlane> bkardell_: good segway,
16:25:42 <sarah_higley> even beyond accessibility, I'd go as far as to say there are no multiselect listboxes that are even intuitive and easily usable in general
16:25:47 <chlane> it should be noted that openui is part of wcig
16:26:07 <chlane> many things that are part of investigations will not recieve a bunch of work
16:26:22 <chlane> breadcrumb is a good example
16:26:38 <chlane> a lot of breadcrumb  components
16:26:49 <chlane> like other standards body
16:26:56 <chlane> onioning happens
16:26:56 <JonathanNeal> Related to bkardell_’s comment, here is a link to the OpenUI charter. https://open-ui.org/charter
16:27:09 <chlane> improvements are shared
16:27:21 <chlane> high value things like select menu
16:27:33 <chlane> microsoft/google intersted in solving
16:27:39 <chlane> tabs is a different example
16:27:47 <chlane> prefer to cal it panel set
16:28:10 <jamesn> q?
16:28:12 <chlane> protyping dev 1 years worth
16:28:30 <chlane> tabs research is exemplary
16:28:36 <chlane> not just screenshots
16:28:50 <chlane> how that has been tried in markup
16:28:54 <chlane> how it maps to html
16:29:00 <chlane> chose to do a proposal
16:29:07 <chlane> cuz it was kind of different
16:29:15 <chlane> experience, feedback
16:29:28 <chlane> jamesn raised concerns
16:29:31 <chlane> no 1 path
16:29:46 <hdv> [ this 'starting from how people try to do things in the wild' approach is a huge benefit Open UI brings imo]
16:29:53 <chlane> there are things that make sense to involve ARIa working group
16:30:04 <jamesn> q?
16:30:11 <chlane> not all
16:30:19 <jamesn> ack chrisdholt
16:30:19 <chlane> chrisdholt:
16:30:41 <chlane> reinforce, research actual pain points
16:31:00 <chlane> good example radio and radio group
16:31:15 <chlane> browser extracts pain points
16:31:23 <chlane> tagging system on our end
16:31:40 <jcraig> q+
16:31:42 <chlane> identified something to improve platform
16:31:47 <jamesn> q++
16:31:55 <jamesn> qi+
16:31:57 <siri_> tabbing backward and forward is not consistent on radio group
16:31:57 <scotto> per chris's example of radio/radiogroup - hence my opening of this issue https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1721
16:32:01 <jamesn> q-+
16:32:16 <chlane> how do we identify those items that are ready to move forward
16:32:32 <chlane> need aria working group to be on board
16:32:46 <chlane> for anything that has to do with controls
16:33:10 <chlane> Matt, I like what you are saying
16:33:31 <jcraig> q+ to reply to Chris Holt; mention benefits of low-barrier, low structure accessibility traits (as in iOS native)
16:33:46 <bkardell_> to the question of how we work better together, I don't want to get back in the queue for this but I had expected (probably presumptuous) that some of the liasons _from_ aria were kind of on the lookout for what might be useful to bring up - we can easily come up with how to do better here I think
16:33:48 <chlane> it would be good for us to go through open UI issues
16:34:00 <chlane> and flag them as systemically problematic
16:34:15 <chlane> that would benefit from addition focus for a11y
16:34:39 <chlane> scotto and sarah can't do all the work
16:35:02 <chlane> matt if I knew what tag to add, would love to add it myself for radiogroups
16:35:08 <hdv> +1, many/most of us in Open UI  can flag accessibility issues, it's all of our responsibility
16:35:16 <bkardell_> +1
16:35:17 <chrisdholt> +1 ^
16:35:39 <hdv> (but in many cases we need your ARIA expertise to help find out what's right)
16:35:42 <siri_> +1 matt
16:35:50 <jamesn> q?
16:35:56 <jamesn> ack JonathanNeal
16:35:58 <chrisdholt> hdv, bkardell - without prescribing should we open an issue or just pose a question on the Open UI side for creating a label there?
16:36:05 <jcraig> q+ to mention reducing requirements for rigid structure requirements whenever possible
16:36:11 <chlane> JonathanNeal: chairing open UI meeting today will bring up tagging
16:36:22 <chlane> document how components exists today
16:36:34 <chlane> interoperability is written into the charter
16:36:42 <chlane> may not involve ARIA
16:36:48 <chlane> it is descriptive
16:36:49 <chlane> not
16:36:53 <chlane> prescriptive
16:37:00 <hdv> +1 to JonathanNeal
16:37:00 <jamesn> q?
16:37:00 <JonathanNeal> ack JonathanNeal
16:37:02 <jcraig> ack jcraig
16:37:02 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to reply to Chris Holt; mention benefits of low-barrier, low structure accessibility traits (as in iOS native) and to mention reducing requirements for rigid
16:37:04 <sarah_higley> q+
16:37:05 <Zakim> ... structure requirements whenever possible
16:37:06 <jamesn> ack jcraig
16:37:17 <jamesn> q+ cyns
16:37:20 <chlane> jcraig:
16:37:29 <chlane> reply to chris h
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16:37:44 <cyns> q+
16:38:06 <chlane> do we agree that it is tedius to enforce mutually exclusive elements to be inside the same container
16:38:09 <chlane> ?
16:38:20 <chlane> aria working group needs to discuss
16:38:30 <chlane> reduce rigid structure
16:38:34 <chlane> to ease authoring
16:38:56 <jamesn> agenda?
16:38:56 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-dive
16:38:58 <chlane> objected not allowing attributes not being used
16:39:06 <Matt_King> present+
16:39:07 <chlane> or roles use limitation
16:39:12 <Matt_King> q?
16:39:18 <jamesn> zakim, drop item 4
16:39:18 <Zakim> agendum 4, what do OpenUI anticipate needing our assistance / feedback on, dropped
16:39:21 <chlane> aria container identifier attribute
16:39:34 <chlane> like name attribute for html radio
16:39:44 <jamesn> zakim, drop item 6
16:39:44 <Zakim> agendum 6, How can each group more effectively help the other?, dropped
16:39:44 <JonathanNeal> Here is a link to our OpenUI channel and our meeting today where I will bring up issue tagging for increased ARIA member involvement. https://discord.gg/zEveWr68?event=969265800554889238
16:39:48 <chlane> js framework patterns, element ref
16:39:53 <jamesn> agenda?
16:39:54 <chlane> frozen element array
16:40:05 <chlane> instead of string reflections
16:40:14 <chlane> pointers to other objects
16:40:20 <chlane> like shadow dom components
16:40:26 <chlane> all 2000 js frameworks
16:40:28 <jamesn> q?
16:40:37 <chlane> the way ios does a11y is different
16:40:40 <chlane> then any other
16:40:48 <chlane> led to wide adoption
16:41:03 <chlane> most a11y structure is handled as traits
16:41:12 <chlane> loose primitive thing
16:41:17 <chlane> you can just apply traits
16:41:23 <chlane> not enforcerd
16:41:29 <JonathanNeal> Are we still in overall group collaboration process, or have me moved onto gaps in ARIA which need filling?
16:41:38 <chlane> api/AT does whats best when traits conflict
16:41:40 <JonathanNeal> s/or have me/or have we
16:41:50 <jamesn> q?
16:41:54 <chlane> works most of the time just by applying traits
16:42:05 <cyns> q?
16:42:12 <jamesn> ack sarah_higley
16:42:34 <bkardell_> "I like everything james said"
16:42:53 <chlane> sarah_higley: to simple
16:42:56 <chlane> too simple
16:43:19 <jamesn> q+
16:43:43 <bkardell_> q++
16:43:48 <JonathanNeal> Thank you, sarah_higley. So much, thank you. I fully agree with you, and I regret framing my earlier comment as tho ARIA was not welcome during a descriptive effort.
16:43:50 <chlane> it would be worth it to look at a way to mitigate act of defining patterns
16:44:15 <chlane> to not perpetuate innaccessible ideas
16:44:16 <jcraig> ack s
16:44:17 <scotto> agreed with Sarah.  identifying the accessibility gaps of current patterns would be good in the research description phase
16:44:17 <jamesn> q+ to say that accessible web frameworks sometimes limit the things they want to do based on what can be made accessible
16:44:24 <chlane> bkardell_: what exists today is that
16:44:29 <hdv> +1 to sarah_higley , that research phase seems like a really good place to find a11y problems in what exists today
16:44:35 <jamesn> q-+
16:44:37 <chrisdholt> +1 to what Sarah mentioned as someone who coordinates w/ frameworks, etc
16:44:47 <chlane> distinction between how they should be vs how they exist in the wild
16:44:57 <chlane> sarah_higley: sees intention and different effect
16:45:11 <chlane> add warnings to research
16:45:21 <chlane> select merges many things
16:45:27 <chlane> these are not the same thing
16:45:28 <chrisdholt> +1 Sarah :)
16:45:32 <jcraig> q- +
16:45:44 <chlane> combining them has a11y implications
16:45:49 <jamesn> ack me
16:45:49 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say that accessible web frameworks sometimes limit the things they want to do based on what can be made accessible
16:46:16 <chlane> jamesn: there are many things wed like to do
16:46:39 <chlane> bkardell_: looks at tabs research
16:46:44 <chlane> we call out gaps
16:47:00 <chlane> a11y charactertistics are unknown
16:47:15 <hdv> [ Tabs markup research: https://open-ui.org/components/tabs.research.markup ]
16:47:31 <hdv> [ Tabs parts and concepts: https://open-ui.org/components/tabs.research.parts#parts-and-terminology ]
16:47:33 <jamesn> ack cyns
16:47:53 <jamesn> agenda?
16:48:43 <hdv> q+
16:48:45 <bkardell_> jamesn: you can add me to that
16:48:49 <chrisdholt> q+
16:48:59 <Matt_King> q?
16:49:03 <jamesn> ack hdv
16:49:34 <cyns> +1 to regular syncs
16:49:34 <bkardell_> sgtm
16:49:36 <chlane> yes
16:49:40 <hdv> sounds good!
16:49:41 <aaronlev> +1
16:49:43 <jcraig> q+ to consider codifying an ARIA API review expectations section? e.g. for every new ARIA feature proposal, has it been considered how it will be used in practice in popular frameworks patterns and new emerging technologies... eg. does this enforce more structure than it needs to? If there are rigid limitations, are they really necessary or just preferred?
16:49:54 <Matt_King> +1 to syncing every 8 to 10 weeks
16:50:02 <chlane> chrisdholt: everyother month seems good
16:50:14 <jcraig> ack c
16:50:16 <jamesn> ack chrisdholt
16:50:25 <jcraig> ack j
16:50:25 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to consider codifying an ARIA API review expectations section? e.g. for every new ARIA feature proposal, has it been considered how it will be used in practice
16:50:26 <jamesn> agenda?
16:50:29 <Zakim> ... in popular frameworks patterns and new emerging technologies... eg. does this enforce more structure than it needs to? If there are rigid limitations, are they really necessary
16:50:29 <Zakim> ... or just preferred?
16:50:42 <chlane> jcraig: what if codified expectations
16:51:05 <bkardell_> that would be helpful
16:51:08 <chlane> is this going to work with js frameworks, emerging technologies
16:51:17 <chlane> propose solutions where needed
16:51:31 <jamesn> q?
16:51:31 <chlane> lightweight way to group elements
16:51:44 <jamesn> agenda?
16:51:57 <chlane> siri_: if you want to add new items
16:52:05 <chlane> is there a process to do that?
16:52:22 <chlane> jamesn: there is open ui research
16:52:32 <chlane> jamesn: ?
16:52:37 <JonathanNeal> [ Radio Button Research: https://open-ui.org/components/radio-button.research ]
16:52:47 <chlane> siri_: radio groups, and scotts issue
16:52:52 <chrisdholt> q+
16:53:10 <chlane> jamesn: browsers change implementation
16:53:13 <chlane> ?
16:53:17 <chlane> siri_: yes
16:53:35 <chlane> chrisdholt: open issue articulating problem
16:53:51 <chlane> dig in together
16:54:03 <chlane> the delta is are we proposing something different
16:54:16 <chlane> file bugs on browser if needed
16:54:19 <jamesn> agenda?
16:54:27 <chlane> different ideas
16:54:48 <chlane> you dont have to have a prescribed structure?
16:54:55 <bkardell_> jamesn: I would love to get to the question about what to do about our current situation - I guess #8
16:55:00 <Matt_King> q+
16:55:07 <bkardell_> sorry not 8 I guess :(
16:55:08 <Matt_King> q?
16:55:18 <jamesn> ack chrisdholt
16:55:22 <chlane> start by filing bugs on browser
16:55:30 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
16:55:50 <JonathanNeal> I am interested in the #8 agenda item as well, jamesn. At least how we could follow up on that.
16:56:53 <chlane> matt are keyboard behaviors specced anywhere?
16:56:54 <chlane> no
16:57:19 <chlane> if open ui is addressing keyboard behaviors what is the end result?
16:57:53 <chlane> jamesn: there would be a new select element?
16:58:08 <chlane> chrisdholt: we cannot break the web
16:58:36 <chlane> matt, input type radio is not specified, open ui does not help with that problem
16:58:48 <chlane> if you come up with a new kind of select
16:59:04 <chlane> is the way that it gets specced?
16:59:14 <JonathanNeal> I do not wish to be rude, but may we please refocus on the agenda?
16:59:15 <chlane> what would keep things interoperable
17:00:02 <chlane> jamesn: aria actions can be native
17:00:17 <chlane> sarah_higley: is working on it
17:00:24 <chlane> rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/28-aria-dive-minutes.html chlane
17:00:53 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/28-aria-dive-minutes.html jamesn
17:02:19 <chlane> quit
17:02:24 <chlane> exit
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