17:58:56 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 17:58:56 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/19-aria-apg-irc 17:59:15 MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practice Guide 17:59:28 Chair: MattKing 17:59:37 rrsagent, make minutes 17:59:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/19-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem 17:59:53 rrsagent, make log public 18:00:16 Regret+ Sarah, Rich 18:01:04 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria-apg 18:01:25 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/April-19%2C-2022-Agenda 18:01:54 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:02:08 Matt_King has joined #aria-apg 18:02:41 regrets+ SarahHigley RichNoah 18:02:42 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/April-19%2C-2022-Agenda 18:03:02 present+ 18:03:37 present+ BryanGaraventa Siri 18:04:15 scribe: MarkMcCarthy 18:05:08 siri_ has joined #aria-apg 18:05:23 jongunderson has joined #aria-apg 18:05:49 TOPIC: APG Issue Triage 18:06:16 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2293 18:06:18 present + 18:08:18 MarkMcCarthy: This example 18:08:19 https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/examples/listbox/listbox-collapsible.html 18:08:24 Matt_King: oh we're deprecating this one 18:09:01 Matt_King: i'll add a link to the new example 18:09:04 present+ jongund 18:10:23 Matt_King: oh this is the 1.1 listbox, that'll affect my comment 18:11:04 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2292 18:12:15 MarkMcCarthy: same issue, closed with comment 18:12:23 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2290 18:13:21 Matt_King: I know it doesn't require its own label, and it's a controlled listbox... Bryan, should the listbox have a label? since it's controlled, not owned 18:13:31 Bryan: I don't ever label them, when I tried that it's really spammy 18:13:48 Bryan: In some cases it annouces the label for every option 18:14:18 Matt_King: not sure if we're labelling it in our current combobox as is... 18:15:19 siri_: i think the name of the combobox conveys what the listbox will do 18:15:22 Bryan: +1 18:15:30 CurtBellew: we point back to the main label (of the combobox) 18:15:51 jongunderson: listbox has a required label, right? 18:15:57 Matt_King: good question 18:16:13 siri_: in ARIA roles states properties, it says it needs it if it's NOT part of another widget 18:16:42 jongunderson: this might complicate things for validators though 18:17:06 siri: From spec - If the element with role listbox is not part of another widget, such as a combobox, then it has either a visible label referenced by aria-labelledby or a value specified for aria-label. 18:17:50 jongunderson: then the ARIA spec should change. til its updated, I don't know that we can change this 18:17:56 s/change this/comment on this 18:19:01 Matt_King: the thing about a listbox, if there isn't anything about the listbox that tells a validator that it's part of the combobox, then it might indeed be confusing 18:20:16 MarkMcCarthy: issue filer originally opened ticket in axe-core, says: For a combobox pattern, the listbox is part of a composite widget and isn’t independently focusable nor navigable. Focus remains on the associated textfield (which has role combobox), which does require a label. So to me it seems duplicative at best and confusing/misleading at worst to also require a label for the listbox. 18:20:27 Matt_King: that helps! so there is a spec issue I think 18:20:47 Matt_King: the only clue is that the listbox itself is not focusable. could use roving tabindex... hmm 18:21:06 Bryan: I worry about using a touchscreen on iOS for instance, then the focusable thing doesn't apply 18:21:20 Matt_King: but iOS doesn't require that to be focusable from a DOM perspective 18:21:31 Bryan: but the logic for not requiring a name... 18:21:51 Matt_King: ah true, it is technically "focusable" on its own 18:22:15 jongunderson: the example for the 1.2 combobox, the

Matt_King: i think the spec is clear except the table part you mentioned jongunderson - could you raise an issue against ARIA? 18:24:36 siri_: what I had read was part of APG documentation 18:24:44 Matt_King: OHH so we're in conflict with ARIA spec 18:24:54 jongunderson: as written. the example is in conflict then too! 18:25:07 Matt_King: if you could reference this issue and the axe-core issue, that'll help resolve 18:25:47 siri_: so based on this issue, what should we decide? that listbox has a label? 18:25:51 bryan: I'm not clear on that 18:25:54 Matt_King: i'm not sure either 18:26:46 siri_: thinking about , and select-only-combobox doesn't have a label. 18:26:51 Matt_King: right... but there's only one element 18:27:33 Matt_King: if size is 1 anyway, 2 or greater becomes a listbox 18:27:52 CurtBellew: our combobox example with a listbox has aria-labelledby that points to the combobox label 18:27:58 Matt_King: i'm not sure which way is the bestd way to go 18:29:16 present+ 18:29:19 Matt_King: if Jon makes an ARIA issue, we should have a discussion there about this and move forwar from there 18:29:29 and with that I need to drop off. See you all next time. 18:30:15 MarkMcCarthy: we are agenda+ing this for a later day 18:32:06 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2289 18:33:30 Matt_King: if anyone has ideas of resources to share, please do! 18:33:36 Matt_King: no need to be an expert 18:33:45 jongunderson: sounds like webcomponents, i'll try to respond 18:34:30 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2281 18:36:12 Matt_King: i can take a look at this one, seems more related to screen reader issues 18:36:32 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2284 18:37:57 Matt_King: does this need discussion? or is it immediately obviously one way or the other 18:38:04 Matt_King: i wouldn't say i'm an expert in reflow 18:38:59 jongunderson: are we going to get into responsive design in APG? that'd complicate them. if the examples are about **explaining ARIA**, it's going to obfuscate things to add more code 18:39:12 jongunderson: maybe we have a separate example that shows reflow, to show what's different 18:39:34 jongunderson: i want to avoid people thinking that this is a component library 18:40:30 Matt_King: as far as I know WCAG doesn't require full responsive design... do we want to explictly state we're not trying to satisfy this particular success criterion? 18:41:42 Matt_King: somewhere int he scope of our practices stuff, it does seem like we should have a statement/position on what we're achieving and why we mgiht not meet certain WCAG requirements 18:41:49 Matt_King: i want to agenda+ this 18:42:20 jongunderson: even in WCAG it says "Except for parts of the content which require two-dimensional layout for usage or meaning." and the tabs have meaning 18:42:46 Matt_King: that doesn't help much with the response we're coming up with 18:43:29 Matt_King: i think as a group, we need a positional statement about wcag compliance 18:44:09 jongunderson: there's a ton of exceptions to reflow. i'm not sure if you think we're out of compliance with reflow or not... 18:44:15 Matt_King: we'll spend some time on this in the future 18:44:26 TOPIC: Radio Group Focus Behavior 18:44:39 Matt_King: we'll move on to radio groups, as file directory requires Sarah 18:44:46 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2258 18:45:11 Matt_King: our radio example is a bit different than native browser behavior 18:46:13 Matt_King: ARIA example is nice because, if going backwards, it's _exactly_ the same as how it was going forward 18:46:26 Matt_King: i've suggested raising a bug against browsers re: how native ones behave 18:47:20 Matt_King: if you're going quick, you won't get to the same place with a native group, which could be confusing 18:47:45 jongunderson: i can already hear them saying "how important is this?" *chuckle* 18:49:41 Matt_King: Well, we all reviewed and approved our radiogroup examples, and we have a note in there about this. 18:50:28 MarkMcCarthy: I'm in favor of raising issues with the browsers, it's slightly jarring even as a sighted user 18:50:37 siri: +1, I think it should be the same order 18:51:56 Matt_King: well, that all said, I could mention Jory specifically and ask if he'd be willing to raise issues against browsers 18:52:10 Matt_King: or if we could just get one to change, like Google *chuckle* 18:52:20 Matt_King: well it is the most popular browser! 18:52:47 Matt_King: i could make that comment and close as wontfix, or we could get some followthrough 18:53:29 Matt_King: i don't think i'd be misrepresneting the group if i made a comment that the TF won't be changing the example, or something like that 18:54:29 MarkMcCarthy: i can't think of any major objections 18:54:44 Matt_King: certainly not a hill worth dying on either way 18:55:43 Matt_King: it seems like OpenUI would be a good forum for this discussion, that deep dive is... 18:55:46 MarkMcCarthy: next week -- https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/caa84703-c666-47c3-a42f-e106a4052871 18:55:56 siri_: I'll ask my manager and see what he thinks 18:56:01 Matt_King: oh right you're at Google now! 18:56:36 siri_: LOL 18:57:01 Matt_King: i think this is a good place to stop. i don't want to close this so others can respond, but i'll leave a comment 18:57:50 jongunderson: i've been looking at the radiobutton components - they make every radio button a tabstop *laughs* 18:58:25 zakim, who is here? 18:58:25 Present: MarkMcCarthy, BryanGaraventa, Siri, jongund, CurtBellew 18:58:27 On IRC I see jongunderson, siri_, Matt_King, MarkMcCarthy, RRSAgent, Zakim, Jem, MichaelC, zcorpan, github-bot, ZoeBijl, trackbot, jamesn 18:58:30 present+ Matt_King 18:58:33 RRSAgent, make minutes 18:58:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/19-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy 18:59:08 https://www.carbondesignsystem.com/components/radio-button/code