Meeting minutes
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Zakim: this will be the Web Editing Group 22-04 meeting
<whsieh> if we have time today, should we discuss how we should proceed with https://
ok, let'
s add that to the end then.
<whsieh> 👍🏻
https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/170
https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/170
Bo: we are in favor of something like that. We ca see how a custom format can turn into wellknown format over time. thumbs up.
whsieh: and that is synchronous?
BoCupp: yes, just a hardcode list
whsieh: we are in support for it as well
BoCupp: is clipboarditem the right place?
whsieh: only alternative method is to have method on clipboard and then have mwethod on it handing it an item.
BoCupp: I favor clipboarditem
RESOLUTION: add synchronous method on clipboarditem to query supported wellknown formats and whether web custom formats are supports.
https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/pull/164
BoCupp: Our objection is that removal of delegation mechanism favors one particular user interface like in safari ... firefox plans to also support similar UI. we don't.
… Problems showing up when one uses an iframe and doesn't do particular type of UI.
BoCupp: Userexperience should be an area where browsers can differ. SO we would be against applying PR removing this.
whsieh: So is permissions prompt currently required?
BoCupp: No, this is when you do have permissions prompt and iframes. That's when you need a delegation model. Can we leave it in the spec. We'll need it even if it isn't in there.
johanneswilm: so having this in spec will not affect firefox/safari?
BoCupp: correct.
BoCupp: we have not really discussed with PR stakeholders.
ACTION: BoCupp will communicate with authors of PR.
https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/75
johanneswilm: user gestures are problematic for remote desktop clients.
anupam: We discussed async. Issue should be resolved.
whsieh: how specifically should we relax user gesture requirement?
…
BoCupp: is timing only applying to write?
whsieh: yes
BoCupp: so how about tab not being active anymore, or a second write being initiated....
…
whsieh: Problem is that we don't even know if something should be written to clipboard. So we just extend the time.
BoCupp: Problem is that it may take longer than 5 seconds to receive an answer from server and knwo whether something should eb added to clipboard.
BoCupp: So we could extend time limit.
BoCupp: Firefox uses 5 seconds.
whsieh: We use 1 second currently settimeout and fetch to propagatae user gestures. This is what we we wanted to use universally.
ACTION: whsieh will check user activation spec and come up with a proposal for a number of seconds.
BoCupp: no amount of time will solve the problem. 1 second seems reasonable.
https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/393
BoCupp: We will discuss async.
https://github.com/w3c/virtual-keyboard/issues/15
BoCupp: I have seen the answer, but we have not time to look at it.
BoCupp: The question is whether the automatic lifting to doing so manually influence screenreaders?
whsieh: talked to accessibility group.
whsieh: The way we deal with having fixed element at bottom is that we allow scrolling so that one have the keyboard below the lowest element on the page.
BoCupp: I understand the concern, but we need to experiment.
BoCupp: cannot commit someone to work on it right now. Cannot [promise answer in a month.
https://github.com/web-platform-tests/interop-2022/issues/17
https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/396
whsieh: Jen Simmons has been coordinating interop 2022 from our side
whsieh: pat of that is making web platform tests universal.
whsieh: many failures in editing is that execCommand behaves differently in different browsers.
whsieh: so what do we do? we historically tried to make them consistent with native UI behavior.
BoCupp: This is not the first time this comes up. We have not tried to align similar behavior.
BoCupp: Becomes large editors don't use DOM. Even editors using DOM use their own commands (even if they use HTML and not their own document model).
BoCupp: It's not very extensible.
BoCupp: There is not much of a surface for web platform developers.
BoCupp: It seesm to me that unless you want to have a ribbon at the top of an editor.... it's not that usable with execCommand.
whsieh: I think we all agree that execCommand goes the way of the dinosaurs.
whsieh: The question is what do we do with the tests? Do we just discard them?
whsieh: The problem is there are still web pages that use them?
BoCupp: Are there some tests that do pass everywhere that we can use as anti-regression tests?
BoCupp: Are there areas where extra tests would make sense?
<whsieh> whsieh: yeah, standardizing selection behavior is at least as hard as execCommand
<snianu> Blink and Webkit have very similar behavior last I checked, but FF differs a lot in the editing commands. me says:I think selection behavior is a much harder problem as there are commands like Word movement and stuff(that depends on the ICU lib) that affects selection and standardizing that is not an easy task me says:and there are platform specific word break behavior as well that complicates it a bit
johanneswilm: For editors that use the native selection (caret), it would be helpful to get more standardization on how that caret behaves.
whsieh: Some of that is currently hard to test.
BoCupp: [multiple examples...] some of the differences are platform dependent.
BoCupp: We have come a long way in the area of input events and target ranges.
BoCupp: It may sometimes be difficult to say how they behave in case of eevry execComnmand.
<whsieh> I think we could all feasibly align on async clipboard API WPT as well
BoCupp: It may be a point to make sure that input text events are behaving the same. There is still an issue with the last event in IME being canceleable.
whsieh: We had some differences in the area of pickling, etc. but taking a step back some more general areas are fairly standardized. If we can tests user gestures.
whsieh: We don't have gesture requirement for same-origin clipboard events, so they could just add those themselves...
BoCupp: So input events has best shot
BoCupp: agree
ACTION: BoCupp will tag implementers + johanneswilm in issue on which parts of editing make sense in interop 2022.