13:09:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub
13:09:18 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/08-epub-irc
13:09:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:09:22 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
13:09:31 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2022-04-08: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2022Apr/0001.html
13:09:32 <ivan> Chair: dauwhe
13:09:32 <ivan> Date: 2022-04-08
13:09:32 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2022Apr/0001.html
13:09:32 <ivan> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telco
13:39:13 <AramZS> AramZS has joined #epub
13:53:22 <ivan> regrets: tzviya
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13:56:10 <MURATA> present+
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13:58:48 <ivan> present+
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13:59:16 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
13:59:26 <wendyreid> present+
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13:59:27 <ivan> present+ wendyreid
13:59:41 <ivan> present+ shiestyle
13:59:44 <dauwhe> present+
13:59:47 <ivan> present+ charles
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13:59:56 <BenSchroeter> present+
13:59:56 <ivan> present+ MasakazuKitahara
14:00:00 <CharlesL1> present+
14:00:17 <MattChan> present+
14:00:38 <MattChan> scribe+
14:01:14 <ivan> present+ aimee
14:01:22 <ivan> present+ billk
14:01:34 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #epub
14:01:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
14:01:43 <ivan> present+ gpellegrino
14:02:34 <Aimee_> Aimee_ has joined #epub
14:02:40 <ivan> present+ zheng
14:02:41 <Aimee_> present+
14:02:50 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #epub
14:02:53 <ivan> present+ dan, matt
14:02:55 <mgarrish> present+
14:03:08 <MattChan> TOPIC: Close Privacy & Security Issues
14:03:15 <dlazin> dlazin has joined #epub
14:04:03 <MattChan> dauwhe: the TAG has reappeared of making a couple comments, I am making a PR to mention that when using web APIs, which have the most dramatic privacy and security implications (geolocations, push notifs) then you should get user consent
14:04:07 <ivan> present+ JenG
14:04:13 <ivan> present+ george
14:04:29 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1959
14:04:38 <MattChan> ... we have several issues where there was never much discussion in the issue (#1959 for example)
14:04:43 <ivan> github-bot, bye
14:04:43 <github-bot> github-bot has left #epub
14:04:54 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:04:56 <MattChan> ... I think the PR i mentioned earlier would serve to close this issue
14:05:07 <MattChan> ... agree/disagree?
14:05:09 <Jen_G> Jen_G has joined #epub
14:05:13 <GeorgeK> present+
14:05:15 <ivan> q+
14:05:18 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:05:18 <Jen_G> Present+
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14:05:45 <zheng_xu_> present+
14:05:48 <MattChan> ivan: we had a lot of discussion with PING, good discussions, after which we made extensive additions to answer the issues they raised
14:06:10 <MattChan> ... and we contacted them several times to get their acknowledgement. So at this point we consider these issues closed.
14:06:16 <MattChan> ... they have the right to reopen issues if they like
14:06:42 <MattChan> ... aimee from TAG has closed the issue of epub review on the TAG repo, so that is an indication of how they feel
14:06:54 <wendyreid> s/aimee/Amy/
14:07:00 <MattChan> gpellegrino: so is this passed? it is okay?
14:07:01 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1872
14:07:04 <MattChan> ivan: yes, it is okay
14:07:29 <MattChan> dauwhe: risk of exposure and finger printability
14:07:42 <MattChan> ... this was raised before we clarified the threat model, can we close this now?
14:07:48 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1873
14:08:12 <MattChan> dauwhe: obfuscation, which we've discussed extensively, followed by updates to the spec docs
14:08:20 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1875
14:08:34 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1876
14:08:42 <MattChan> ... interactivity, which we've addressed as best we can given that it's ambiguous
14:09:25 <MattChan> ... self-contained packages, this is a case where its appropriate to close because epub is clear that it is largely self-contained, subject to exceptions enumerated in the spec. Not dramatically impacting privacy
14:09:26 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1957
14:09:49 <MattChan> ... we enumerated the threat model, which deals with #1957
14:09:54 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1958
14:10:10 <MattChan> ... permission prompts, we're dealing with this, strengthened text
14:10:25 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1959
14:10:45 <dauwhe> q?
14:10:47 <wendyreid> Proposed: Close remaining privacy and security issues
14:10:51 <MattChan> ... broad user expectations issues, which is covered by the other changes we've made
14:10:56 <ivan> +1
14:11:00 <MattChan> +1
14:11:00 <shiestyle> +1
14:11:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
14:11:00 <dauwhe> +7
14:11:01 <wendyreid> +1
14:11:02 <mgarrish> +1
14:11:02 <MURATA> +1
14:11:04 <dlazin> +1
14:11:05 <CharlesL1> +1
14:11:05 <BenSchroeter> +1
14:11:05 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:11:12 <dlazin> present+
14:11:40 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Close remaining privacy and security issues
14:11:48 <ivan> clap, clap
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14:12:08 <MattChan> dauwhe: I think the spec is now much more informative/clear about some of these issues, so thanks everyone
14:12:22 <GeorgeK> +1
14:12:36 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2153
14:12:43 <MattChan> TOPIC: Missing CSS Values
14:13:03 <MattChan> dauwhe: this refers to our appendix documenting epub's prefixed CSS properties
14:13:38 <MattChan> ... original intent was to document what epub had and how that related to the current state of CSS, but we did not exhaustively document all modern CSS properties with epub equivalents
14:14:01 <MattChan> ... there was a suggestion in the issue, and I have no objection to that
14:14:15 <MattChan> ... mgarrish had sample text in issue
14:14:26 <MattChan> ... "The prefix definitions are no longer being synchronized with their CSS counterparts. In some cases, the unprefixed versions of these properties now support additional values. Reading Systems may not support the new syntaxes with the prefixed properties, so EPUB Creators are advised to use the unprefixed versions for newer features."
14:14:34 <MattChan> ... seems like good advice
14:15:03 <MattChan> mgarrish: avoids wg having to maintain this section going forward
14:15:21 <ivan> q+
14:15:24 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:15:27 <MattChan> dauwhe: we'd have to reference various different CSS modules in the appendix to our spec, not the goal
14:15:44 <MattChan> ivan: does this modify the existing CSS tests that wendyreid made? Does it require new tests?
14:15:48 <CharlesL1> CharlesL1 has left #epub
14:15:49 <MattChan> dauwhe: I don't think so
14:16:01 <MURATA> Agreed
14:16:08 <MattChan> mgarrish: we're testing what was already there, but we're not testing what has been added to CSS since the prefixes
14:16:11 <MattChan> ivan: okay, good with me
14:16:34 <MattChan> dauwhe: i don't think we should test using a new value in a epub prefixed property
14:17:12 <MattChan> mgarrish: I'll create PR that just implements that text from the issue
14:17:38 <wendyreid> Proposed: Adopt the recommended text in issue 2153, close issue
14:17:39 <MURATA> +1
14:17:42 <mgarrish> +1
14:17:46 <ivan> +1
14:17:46 <wendyreid> +1
14:17:46 <MattChan> +1
14:17:49 <GeorgeK> +1
14:17:49 <dauwhe> +1
14:17:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
14:17:51 <shiestyle> +1
14:18:02 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:18:07 <BenSchroeter> +1
14:18:21 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Adopt the recommended text in issue 2153, close issue
14:18:29 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2200
14:18:38 <MattChan> TOPIC: Section D.3.2 Review (Registries)
14:19:56 <MattChan> mgarrish: this was basically a mini-registry that IDPF was making, we said you can use certain limited token values unless you provide a URL
14:20:50 <ivan> q+
14:20:53 <MattChan> ... there was a request to add to this mini-registry, but my preference is rather to drop restrictions on registry values
14:21:01 <MattChan> ... add note that we are no longer maintaining this
14:21:06 <dauwhe> ack ivan
14:21:27 <MattChan> ivan: in addition, mgarrish and I went through a number of older IDPF documents
14:21:45 <MattChan> ... Bill_Kasdorf noted that that there are a number of IDPF documents linked to older versions of spec
14:21:52 <MattChan> ... so I updated these links
14:22:16 <MattChan> ... in doing this we found the mini-registry, which is what this issue is about
14:22:38 <MattChan> ... so the proposal is that we use the same IDPF registries that were there before
14:22:52 <MattChan> ... in the meantime, we've gone through the registry values and updated links
14:23:23 <MattChan> ... we've reached out to various wg members, from JP, DE, etc. to ask for clarification on which links would be proper to use
14:23:46 <dauwhe> q?
14:23:53 <MattChan> ... zheng_xu_ if you can please help interpret the link to the chinese website, to see if it is the correct one
14:24:16 <MURATA> +q
14:24:17 <MattChan> ... I wonder if there are other IDPF documents that need updating in the same way, but I'm not sure what those would be
14:24:34 <MattChan> mgarrish: main ones are the vocabs, the CMT, so I think we got most of them
14:24:35 <dauwhe> ack MU
14:24:52 <MattChan> MURATA: do we need to finalize those changes to the IDPF registry today?
14:25:07 <MattChan> ivan: not right now at this meeting, but I'd like to have all of these changes behind us by next week
14:25:40 <MattChan> ... if you could look at the pointer that koike-san provided by then, that would help
14:26:00 <MattChan> MURATA: are there EN versions of the data linked via these links?
14:26:17 <shiestyle> q+
14:26:22 <dauwhe> ack shi
14:26:25 <MattChan> ivan: I'm not sure, but these documents only need to be in their native languages
14:26:48 <MattChan> shiestyle: the first link from koike-san's comment is good for these needs
14:27:13 <MattChan> ... the second one is more an introduction from the committee in charge, so it may not be correct for this use
14:27:27 <MattChan> ivan: okay, I will wait until next week before finalizing any changes to the IDPF registry
14:27:37 <MattChan> MURATA: I will make my comments in the issue
14:27:39 <CharlesL1> CharlesL1 has joined #epub
14:27:44 <MattChan> ivan: okay, thank you
14:27:51 <dauwhe> q?
14:28:21 <CharlesL1> CharlesL1 has left #epub
14:28:23 <CharlesL1> CharlesL1 has joined #epub
14:28:59 <MattChan> mgarrish: noting that there is a PR to resolve this
14:29:12 <wendyreid> Proposed: Do a final update of the IDPF registry, add note that it will no longer be updated, accept PR 2233, close issue 2200
14:29:13 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2233
14:29:16 <wendyreid> +1
14:29:17 <mgarrish> +1
14:29:19 <MattChan> +1
14:29:20 <ivan> +1
14:29:20 <CharlesL1> +1
14:29:20 <GeorgeK> +1
14:29:20 <MURATA> +1
14:29:20 <dlazin> +1
14:29:22 <dauwhe> +hbg:1
14:29:22 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
14:29:26 <BenSchroeter> +1
14:29:31 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:29:49 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Do a final update of the IDPF registry, add note that it will no longer be updated, accept PR 2233, close issue 2200
14:30:13 <MattChan> TOPIC: Move to Candidate Recommendation
14:30:42 <MattChan> ivan: what CR means in terms of the process for the outside world is that the wg declares that the technical work is done
14:30:53 <MattChan> ... there may still be changes on the document, but those should be editorial
14:31:28 <MattChan> ... patenting issues arise at this stage, but likely not for this wg
14:31:47 <MattChan> ... Director will look at the document now, and review our plans for testing
14:32:07 <MattChan> ... the goal is that eventually the testing results will prove that the document is consistent, etc.
14:32:35 <MattChan> ... once CR is published, we can still make editorial changes on the document without any problems the same way we do now, including automatic publishing
14:33:07 <CharlesL1> q+
14:33:13 <MattChan> ... if we realize that there does need to be a technical change, we can request for a new snapshot. We would request with Director for this if we need it.
14:33:24 <MattChan> ... from public facing point of view, it is an important milestone
14:33:58 <MattChan> ... it is worth beating bushes around it, because this means that authors who are producing epubs should begin to look at 3.3 rather than 3.2
14:34:25 <mgarrish> q+
14:34:29 <MattChan> ... they should expect that eventually 3.3 will supplant 3.2
14:34:46 <MattChan> ... going into CR requires a formal vote, after which I will notify Director
14:34:55 <MURATA> +q
14:34:59 <dauwhe> ack char
14:35:13 <MattChan> CharlesL1: looking at our github issues, there are still 3 outstanding PRs
14:35:24 <MattChan> ivan: we have to agree when we go to CR exactly
14:35:48 <dauwhe> q?
14:35:52 <MattChan> ... which I think should be when we merge these existing PRs, close these issues, unless they are editorial only
14:36:01 <dauwhe> ack mg
14:36:03 <MattChan> CharlesL1: good, thank you
14:36:25 <MattChan> mgarrish: do we need to put something on the 3.2 documents?
14:36:27 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #epub
14:36:38 <dauwhe> ack MU
14:36:41 <MattChan> ivan: we will do that only after 3.3 goes to rec
14:37:05 <MattChan> MURATA: after a CR is published, will we be prohibited from introducing technical changes? If we do, will the CR revert to working draft?
14:37:22 <MattChan> ivan: no, in the old process that was the case, but in the new process we decide
14:37:35 <MattChan> ... only for very serious technical issues would we revert to working draft
14:37:51 <MattChan> ... for smaller technical issues, we can just snapshot
14:37:53 <GeorgeK> q+
14:37:57 <dauwhe> ack G
14:38:23 <MattChan> GeorgeK: once the CR is announced, do we recommend to publishers to start producing to 3.3?
14:38:37 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:38:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:38:40 <MattChan> ivan: informally I think so, noting that 3.3 would not be a rec yet
14:38:53 <MattChan> mgarrish: that change at the publisher level will depend on updates to epubcheck too
14:39:17 <MattChan> GeorgeK: those publishers making a move now may support implementation when we get to rec
14:39:40 <MattChan> ivan: just having the publishers indicate that they intend to adopt 3.3 when it becomes rec is good enough
14:39:46 <dauwhe> ack avn
14:39:51 <MattChan> GeorgeK: same goes for authoring tools
14:40:09 <MattChan> AvneeshSingh: a procedural thing, we also need to allow offline voting for 5 days
14:40:38 <MattChan> ... suppose we start voting on date x, what will be the wait time after that? Just in terms of synchronizing with epubcheck
14:40:56 <MattChan> ivan: if we vote today, I will not send the request to go to CR until next Friday
14:40:57 <BenSchroeter> q+
14:41:43 <MattChan> ... the decision of when to publish should also take into account upcoming dates: e.g. upcoming AC meeting, publication moratorium, Director's ability to review
14:41:54 <MattChan> ... so we probably won't publish before May 5th
14:42:17 <MattChan> ... proposing that we make the formal request to go to CR May 5th
14:42:28 <MattChan> ... but if it works better for epubcheck to do it a few days later, we can
14:42:53 <MattChan> AvneeshSingh: that works for us
14:43:02 <MattChan> ... will there be an email vote to go to CR as well?
14:43:28 <MattChan> ivan: no, not an email vote, but there will be a waiting period of 5 business days if anyone wants to object
14:43:39 <dauwhe> ack Bi
14:43:41 <MattChan> ... I will highlight this right in my email of the minutes
14:43:59 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf: we've got 3 specs, so what's the relationship of this to a11y 1.1 and RS?
14:44:03 <dauwhe> ack Ben
14:44:06 <MattChan> ivan: we will have all 3 go to CR at once
14:44:36 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: do we anticipate that content providers will want assurances that RSes will handle 3.3 before they start producing to it?
14:45:03 <MattChan> ... we will probably be asked what has changed between 3.2 and 3.3, what should we direct them to?
14:45:07 <MattChan> dauwhe: the change log
14:45:20 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: is that consumable by the people who will be asking?
14:45:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:45:46 <MattChan> dauwhe: most of the changes will not be major
14:45:48 <dauwhe> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/core/#change-log
14:46:01 <MattChan> ivan: remember that we have a backwards compat clause in our charter
14:46:23 <MattChan> ... the change log is more for RS developers, but these are not for the publishers to worry about too much
14:46:39 <dauwhe> q?
14:46:55 <MattChan> ... for both devs and authors, all the text that we put in about security and privacy are very relevant, these are new
14:47:13 <MattChan> ... this set of sections should be reviewed closely by both devs and authors
14:47:26 <MattChan> ... and then, as dauwhe, all 3 documents have detailed change logs
14:47:58 <MattChan> ... dauwhe and wendyreid and monique will make a presentation at ebookcraft on 04/28
14:48:08 <MattChan> ... this will be available as a video
14:48:43 <dauwhe> q?
14:48:43 <MattChan> ... i hope I will get permission from the speakers to put link to that video to publications page of w3c
14:48:45 <dauwhe> ack Bill
14:49:17 <GeorgeK> q+
14:49:22 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf: just saying that publishers don't need to worry isn't going to make them not worry. The more we can do to provide reassurance (like the presentation), the better.
14:49:28 <dauwhe> q?
14:50:07 <MattChan> ivan: but remember "no good deed goes unpunished". My wish is that once CR is out, we should have a really well written blog on epub 3.3 and CR
14:50:15 <MattChan> ... but I'm not ready to do that
14:50:31 <MattChan> ... but I agree that something like that is necessary, we're taking volunteers
14:51:09 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf: I'd be happy to do that, but I'm thinking that the best thing would be to write up the presentation we discussed earlier, it should be in sync
14:51:24 <dauwhe> ack George
14:51:32 <MattChan> dauwhe: also keep in mind that we've gone through this before with 3.2
14:51:55 <dauwhe> q?
14:52:00 <CharlesL1> q+
14:52:18 <MattChan> GeorgeK: tzviya has requested a similar write-up, potentially for use with WAI announcements
14:52:55 <dauwhe> ack ch
14:53:02 <MattChan> ivan: the fact that a11y 1.1 is central to the new set of spec docs is an important point to make
14:53:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:53:25 <dauwhe> Zakim, close queue
14:53:25 <Zakim> ok, dauwhe, the speaker queue is closed
14:53:29 <dauwhe> ack Bi
14:53:31 <MattChan> CharlesL1: should the business group be involved in this? Should they write the blog article, or at least be harmonized with what we are planning?
14:53:51 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf: I would feel more comfortable with our members writing it, and then just having business group socialize it
14:55:54 <wendyreid> Proposed: Move EPUB 3.3 Core, EPUB 3.3 Reading Systems, and EPUB Accessibility 1.1 to CR, publication date May 5 (preliminary), pending all PRs are closed by April 15th
14:56:08 <dlazin> +1
14:56:08 <dauwhe> +1
14:56:09 <zheng_xu_> +1
14:56:09 <BenSchroeter> +1
14:56:10 <ivan> +1
14:56:10 <GeorgeK> +1
14:56:10 <CharlesL1> +1
14:56:10 <wendyreid> +1
14:56:10 <shiestyle> +1
14:56:11 <MURATA> +1
14:56:11 <mgarrish> +1
14:56:11 <MattChan> +1
14:56:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
14:56:15 <Aimee_> +1
14:56:18 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:56:20 <AvneeshSingh> +1
14:56:27 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Move EPUB 3.3 Core, EPUB 3.3 Reading Systems, and EPUB Accessibility 1.1 to CR, publication date May 5 (preliminary), pending all PRs are closed by April 15th
14:56:37 <MattChan> wendyreid: hooray!!
14:56:59 <MattChan> ivan: so from now on, the boss is dlazin, as all emphasis is on testing
14:57:19 <MattChan> ... this is the prerequisite for going to Rec
14:57:49 <MattChan> ... please everyone, look at tests, write tests, and if you are part of RS dev, then we need you to help run the tests
14:58:19 <MattChan> dlazin: we're in reasonably good shape on RS spec, not terrible shape in Core spec/vocab
14:58:24 <MattChan> ... ivan has a plan for those
14:58:38 <MattChan> ... there is a lot of work to be done, and I have limited capacity right now
14:59:00 <MattChan> ... first step is to finish writing the tests for RS spec, and catalog tests in epubcheck
14:59:17 <MattChan> dauwhe: thanks everyone, congratulations!
14:59:41 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:59:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/08-epub-minutes.html ivan
14:59:54 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #epub
15:00:08 <toshiakikoike> present+
15:00:40 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:00:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/08-epub-minutes.html ivan
15:00:52 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
15:00:52 <RRSAgent> I see no action items