17:02:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:02:07 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-irc
17:02:10 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:02:10 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:02:43 <jamesn> title: ARIA WG
17:03:46 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:03:46 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:03:46 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20220407T130000
17:03:46 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:03:46 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3v1v5YC
17:03:47 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3JsBjWV
17:03:49 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates  Brief Status Updates
17:03:52 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683
17:03:54 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria
17:03:59 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1661
17:04:00 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Secondary actions on items in composite widget roles https://gist.github.com/smhigley/8dbe67f834cc472e3a14bf6b289e6f0c
17:04:04 <agendabot> agenda+  -> When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description? https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57  More In Depth Discussion
17:04:07 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Add combobox value support for aria#1225 https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/76
17:04:09 <sarah_higley> present+
17:04:10 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Initial aria-textseparation (depends on generic PR being merged) https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/996
17:04:18 <chlane> chlane+
17:04:34 <myasonik> myasonik has joined #aria
17:06:41 <joeyang> joeyang has joined #aria
17:06:55 <joeyang> present+
17:08:44 <spectranaut> present+
17:08:45 <jamesn> agenda?
17:09:03 <spectranaut> I can scribe!
17:09:16 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:09:16 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3v1v5YC -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:09:27 <spectranaut> scribe: spectranaut
17:09:41 <spectranaut> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1718
17:09:42 <Jem> Jem has joined #aria
17:09:54 <Jem> present+
17:09:56 <spectranaut> jamesn: move to authoring practices
17:10:13 <spectranaut> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/42
17:10:37 <spectranaut> peter: this might be an aria issue
17:10:44 <spectranaut> peter: might be a scott issue
17:11:03 <myasonik> present+
17:11:16 <spectranaut> jamesn: I'll add him to the issue
17:12:04 <spectranaut> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/394
17:12:25 <spectranaut> jamesn: I think this is in progress, steve is looking at it
17:12:30 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:12:30 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3JsBjWV -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:12:39 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/395
17:13:15 <spectranaut> jamesn: cyns can you add comments on this?
17:13:30 <spectranaut> jamesn: I added you as a reviewer
17:14:00 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:14:09 <spectranaut> cyns: lets add james craig to get an implementer to look
17:14:17 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:14:17 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates  Brief Status Updates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:14:36 <spectranaut> jamesn: I prefer not to have one next week, unless anyone really wants one
17:14:49 <spectranaut> cyns: works for me I have a conflict anyway
17:14:56 <spectranaut> jamesn: so the week after?
17:15:03 <spectranaut> jamesn: we need a dpub aria meeting
17:15:24 <spectranaut> jamesn: we could do it at an earlier hour to make it easier for everyone to attend
17:15:45 <spectranaut> jamesn: we also need a catch up with open ui, maybe the week of April 21st?
17:15:54 <spectranaut> cyns: can we do it 28th instead I can't make that week
17:16:18 <spectranaut> jamesn: I'd like if we can do monthly or every other month with open ui?
17:16:28 <spectranaut> cyns: can we do dialog 1st or 2nd week of may?
17:16:43 <spectranaut> jamesn: I thinkw e can make progress without a meeting on some related issues
17:16:53 <spectranaut> cyns: we can cancel it if necessary
17:17:07 <spectranaut> jamesn: 5th of may holding for dialog deep dive
17:17:12 <jamesn> action: james to schedule Dialog 5th May, OpenUI April 28
17:17:13 <trackbot> 'james' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., jcraig, jnurthen).
17:17:24 <jamesn> action: jnurthen to schedule Dialog 5th May, OpenUI April 28
17:17:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2167 - Schedule dialog 5th may, openui april 28 [on James Nurthen - due 2022-04-14].
17:17:35 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:17:35 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:49 <siri> present +
17:18:04 <spectranaut> jamesn: maybe we should skip until we have scott
17:18:22 <spectranaut> sarah_higley: I think we should just merge this
17:18:33 <spectranaut> jamesn: we have three approving reviewers
17:18:45 <spectranaut> jamesn: peter can you merge?
17:18:51 <spectranaut> peter: yup
17:18:55 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:18:55 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1661 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:20:18 <spectranaut> sarah_higley: the thing that scott brought up on the PR, but it points to something bugger, if you have roving tab index instead of active descent, then you want the one with tabindex 0 to have implicit selection, so what if they all have tabindex 0, this points to the broader issue that it is hard to assume based on the wide variety of how listboxs are authored, it is had to assume implicit selection.
17:20:31 <spectranaut> sarah_higley: so if they all have tabindex=0, do they all get implicit selection?
17:22:00 <spectranaut> matt_king: we made some rules about implicit selection last year... there are conditions underwhich user agents can assume implicit selection, by having those rules we were trying to accommodate legacy implementation, where people didn't specify selection at all in their implementation -- to make up for authors lack of explicit selection
17:22:14 <jamesn> q+
17:22:40 <spectranaut> sarah_higley: yeah, but the changes we made last year -- we took things in tree and added them to listbox. we didn't introduce a new functional change so much as we made something more explicit in listbox
17:22:49 <spectranaut> sarah_higley: this is also a problem in tree
17:23:16 <spectranaut> matt_king: so you are bring up a possibility that there should be no implicit selection based on focus -- but the primary objector is aaron
17:23:50 <spectranaut> matt_king: I'm not so I agree with him
17:24:11 <spectranaut> matt_king: ultimately, some of us would like to move implicit selection completely from the spec. which would be a different PR from this PR
17:24:20 <spectranaut> sarah_higley: yes, but it would solve this PR
17:24:24 <chlane> aria/pull/1683 +1 to removing implicit selection
17:24:33 <spectranaut> cyns: I am nervous about removing defaults
17:25:02 <spectranaut> matt_king: it is a behavior that is being disallowed in more and more cases, and it is more "error correction" that implicit selection
17:25:41 <spectranaut> matt_king: screen readers don't always tell you when something is selected, they tell you when it is not selected. does the non announcment of selection imply selection is a question we are discussing in APG
17:26:01 <spectranaut> jamesn: sounds like we are going into a bigger rabbit hole than this PR is supposed to fix
17:26:51 <spectranaut> sarah_higley: this rabbit hole did exist earlier. we talked about the issue where implicit selection is likely to be wrong, and we decided to go ahead anyway, and now there is just more and more reasons it is likely to be wrong. the problem with this change is that we say the browsers is going to guess as selection
17:26:59 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1682/files
17:27:06 <spectranaut> jamesn: that is not what I'm reading in the original
17:27:36 <spectranaut> jamesn: previously, we it was using active-descendant, you only go the selection only got the selection WHEN the box has the dom focus
17:27:50 <spectranaut> jamesn: the current language is confusing
17:28:07 <spectranaut> matt_king: that is the problem with implicit selection, is that it relies on focus
17:28:24 <spectranaut> matt_king: the user agent has to make a change to the authors content by making the selection stay after focus moves
17:28:38 <spectranaut> cyns: why can't it do implicit selection when there is no focus
17:29:01 <spectranaut>  sarah_higley: the screen reader is communicated persistent selection where as there is no way to know whether that is intended
17:29:49 <spectranaut> matt_king: if you have an entry int he listbox is "choose an item", should that be considered "selected"?
17:29:58 <spectranaut> cyns: in an html select box it would be considered selected
17:30:16 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
17:30:18 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:30:27 <MarkMcCarthy> RRSAgent, make minutes please
17:30:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy
17:31:01 <spectranaut> sarah_higley: we have a focus without roving tab index in a pattern we made. All children are in the tab order in the dom, even though in reality the widget controls the focus, when nothing is selected, everything is considered selected by the browser
17:31:47 <spectranaut> jamesn: do we have authoring guidance on this?
17:31:50 <spectranaut> matt_king: yes
17:32:06 <spectranaut> matt_king: it says ALWAYS use aria-selected
17:33:23 <spectranaut> bryan: I'm favor of ignoring it
17:33:28 <MarkMcCarthy> +1
17:33:37 <spectranaut> cyns: should I close the issue as not a problem?
17:33:49 <spectranaut> jamesn: it doesn't seem like we can make it better in enough cases to make it worth doing?
17:34:05 <spectranaut> sarah_higley: should we add an authors should or must to clarify what should be done?
17:34:28 <spectranaut> jamesn: "must" if you want the user to know for sure what is selected
17:34:57 <spectranaut> jamesn: maybe we just point to the authoring guidance. we should have more links. we don't need a should/must
17:35:13 <spectranaut> matt_king: good to have normative statements in aria to support APG
17:35:16 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:35:16 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, spectranaut
17:35:20 <jamesn> ack me
17:35:24 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:35:24 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Secondary actions on items in composite widget roles https://gist.github.com/smhigley/8dbe67f834cc472e3a14bf6b289e6f0c -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:35:51 <spectranaut> jamesn: this is a reminder to everyone to look at this and comment and participate! :)
17:36:12 <pkra> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440#issuecomment-1091984559
17:36:13 <spectranaut> sarah_higley: I put an issue comment in with proposed specific thing
17:36:18 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440
17:37:38 <spectranaut> jamesn: if we didn't change children presentational, can we make a normative must so that it is not included in any of these?
17:37:47 <spectranaut> sarah_higley: the point is to allow siblings or children
17:38:04 <spectranaut> jamesn: lets give it a week for comments, then try doing a PR?
17:38:11 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:38:11 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description? https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57  More In Depth Discussion -- taken up [from
17:38:14 <Zakim> ... agendabot]
17:38:45 <pkra> PR is https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/150 ?
17:39:02 <spectranaut> jamesn: everyone, please read comments! and comment, thanks. there are people who have been asked to review in teh issue
17:39:13 <spectranaut> jamesn: simplification of accname for hidden subtrees
17:39:23 <spectranaut> jamesn: its a significant change, the more eyes the better~
17:39:41 <spectranaut> cyns: I'll add myself as a reviewer
17:39:44 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:39:44 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- -> Add combobox value support for aria#1225 https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/76 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:40:29 <MarkMcCarthy> spectranaut: i was looking through blocking issues and this looks like a difficult one
17:41:01 <MarkMcCarthy> spectranaut: there's some discussion of an implicit value for combobox. when thinking about how to test that for CORE AAM or anything, there's no spec for what it should be mapped to
17:41:09 <MarkMcCarthy> s/CORE/Core
17:41:29 <MarkMcCarthy> spectranaut: plus, what do we do about accname?
17:41:43 <MarkMcCarthy> s/do about accname?/do about accname if this is the case?
17:42:05 <MarkMcCarthy> spectranaut: basically, there's not a lot of discussiona bout this case so I'm not sure what to do
17:42:16 <MarkMcCarthy> bryan: I'd love to see a way to set an implicit value
17:42:21 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: hurrah for that
17:42:41 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: Matt, what do you think about this? if it were readonly or selectonly for instance?
17:43:50 <MarkMcCarthy> matt_king: its name would be computed from content, basically. that content then is the value. In other words, what's the name if you ignore the label?
17:44:05 <MarkMcCarthy> bryan: that doesn't translate well in the property mappings
17:44:41 <MarkMcCarthy> spectranaut: that's what we're trying to fix
17:45:01 <MarkMcCarthy> bryan: historically, you can have more than just that plain text content.\
17:45:13 <MarkMcCarthy> matt_king: it's an authoring requirement that the content is the value
17:45:50 <MarkMcCarthy> matt_king: if there's an icon in it, it has to be separate. so, if it's a select only combobox, it has to follow authoring requirements
17:45:59 <MarkMcCarthy> matt_king: ideally*
17:46:22 <spectranaut> q+
17:46:27 <MarkMcCarthy> matt_king: since we don't have value text, and at the time, there were other issues with value text so we figured we'd do this later
17:46:41 <MarkMcCarthy> bryan: got it - so in another way, why is it a problem to support value text on a combobox?
17:46:56 <MarkMcCarthy> spectranaut: let me rephrease, thank you for context
17:47:24 <MarkMcCarthy> spectranaut: problem is we say how to specify the value, but in HTML AAM we have nothing for how to map that from a role=combobox
17:47:54 <MarkMcCarthy> matt_king: it should be similar to how you specify the value for a <select>
17:48:03 <MarkMcCarthy> spectranaut: so do we reference that? and if so, where does it belong?
17:48:12 <MarkMcCarthy> matt_king: not necessarily referencing, but mimicking
17:49:17 <MarkMcCarthy> matt_king: so basically, how to we specify this in the accessibility API, HTML AAM?
17:49:26 <MarkMcCarthy> s/basically,/basically in other words,
17:50:21 <MarkMcCarthy> s/specify this/specify and map
17:50:40 <MarkMcCarthy> matt_king: would this be mapped similar to an aria select-only combobox then?
17:50:50 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: i don't think HTML AAM covers that
17:51:22 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: i'd also like to ask: how do we map the value of a textbox in core AAM?
17:51:35 <MarkMcCarthy> bryan: it supports aria-valuetext
17:52:11 <MarkMcCarthy> cyns: it doesn't
17:52:21 <MarkMcCarthy> scotto: why would it, the value is in the textbox
17:52:30 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: looks like it might inherit some things
17:52:59 <MarkMcCarthy> matt_king: this seems like the exact same thing we're trying to achieve with spectranaut'
17:53:18 <MarkMcCarthy> s/spectranaut'/spectranaut's question
17:53:36 <MarkMcCarthy> Jory: is there some nuance with this, though?
17:53:41 <MarkMcCarthy> q?
17:54:34 <MarkMcCarthy> matt_king: maybe in some javascript way, but that might depend on if you want a different value than the inner content
17:55:01 <MarkMcCarthy> scotto: the option element works in the reverse in terms of aria-selected than a select does
17:56:25 <MarkMcCarthy> matt_king: i think jamesn was on the right track, not sure there's a meaningful difference from role=combobox with editable content or not - the value is computed in the same way
17:56:49 <MarkMcCarthy> bryan: i don't think there should be a difference if it's editable or not. but you should be able to set aria-labels or -labelledby if you'd like
17:56:51 <MarkMcCarthy> q?
17:57:02 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: problem then is we don't say how to map values?
17:57:13 <MarkMcCarthy> [general consensus]
17:57:31 <MarkMcCarthy> spectranaut: i think this is a worthy consideration for a next todo
17:57:34 <MarkMcCarthy> matt_king: we'
17:57:51 <MarkMcCarthy> s/we'/we'd still need text cases, and arguably that might have to come first
17:58:03 <MarkMcCarthy> matt_king: or at least with a lot of research
17:58:12 <MarkMcCarthy> spectranaut: where do those tests belong, if not core AAM or HTML AAM?
17:58:25 <MarkMcCarthy> spectranaut: or, where are the ARIA spec tests?
17:58:28 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: core AAM
17:58:45 <MarkMcCarthy> ack spectranaut
17:59:12 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: the tests are in core AAM - every normative statement in ARIA has tests there
17:59:39 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: this is definitely something we need to resolve for 1.2
18:00:03 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: i'll talk to spectranaut about this and see what we can figure out
18:00:07 <MarkMcCarthy> Zakim, who is here?
18:00:07 <Zakim> Present: sarah_higley, joeyang, spectranaut, Jem, myasonik, MarkMcCarthy
18:00:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see MarkMcCarthy, siri, Jem, joeyang, myasonik, sarah_higley, RRSAgent, Zakim, pkra, chlane, tzviya, MichaelC, joanie, `join_subline, spectranaut, timeless_, ZoeBijl,
18:00:09 <Zakim> ... slightlyoff, gregwhitworth, bigbluehat, dcaro, JonathanNeal, Josh_Soref_, github-bot, trackbot, jamesn, jcraig, agendabot
18:00:20 <MarkMcCarthy> present+ BryanGaraventa
18:00:57 <MarkMcCarthy> present+ JoryCunningham ScottO pkra, siri, chlane
18:01:15 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-minutes.html jamesn
18:05:18 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #aria
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19:10:34 <jamesn> scribe: MarkMcCarthy
19:10:43 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:10:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-minutes.html jamesn
19:14:12 <jamesn> s/spectranaut: i was looking through blocking issues and this looks like a difficult one/scribeNick: MarkMcCarthy spectranaut: i was looking through blocking issues and this looks like a difficult one/
19:14:22 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:14:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-minutes.html jamesn
19:20:31 <jamesn> s/we have three approving reviewers/we have three approving reviewers - peter can you merge?/
19:21:47 <jamesn> s/jamesn: peter can you merge?/scribe+ MarkMcCarthy/
19:21:57 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:21:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-minutes.html jamesn
19:22:51 <jamesn> s/scribeNick: MarkMcCarthy spectranaut: i was looking through blocking issues and this looks like a difficult one/spectranaut: i was looking through blocking issues and this looks like a difficult one/
19:22:53 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:22:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-minutes.html jamesn
19:57:07 <jamesn> Meeting: ARIA WG
19:57:18 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
19:57:21 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:57:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-minutes.html jamesn
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