17:59:51 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 17:59:51 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/05-aria-apg-irc 18:00:39 Zakim has joined #aria-apg 18:01:52 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria-apg 18:01:55 present+ 18:01:56 rrsagent, make minutes 18:01:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/05-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem 18:02:23 MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:02:25 rrsagent, make log public 18:02:39 present+ 18:03:16 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/April-5%2C-2022-Agenda 18:03:23 present+ JaeunJemmaKu 18:03:50 rrsagent, make minutes 18:03:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/05-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 18:05:13 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:05:14 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:07:32 scribe: MarkMcCarthy 18:07:38 zakim, next item 18:07:38 I see nothing on the agenda 18:07:41 Topic: APG Issue Triage 18:08:22 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+created%3A%3E2021-09-01+no%3Alabel+ 18:08:42 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2269 18:08:52 Jem: how best to triage this issue? 18:08:56 jongunderson has joined #aria-apg 18:09:22 jamesn: i don't think this is an APG issue, probably a VO issue. only wanted it here for tracking. filed with apple via feedback assistant 18:09:22 present+ jongunderson 18:09:31 Matt_King: did you get any link from apple? 18:09:35 jamesn: not with feedback assistant 18:10:19 Matt_King: we have labels for AT. if we say this isn't for practices... it'd need to be added to the slider project so people know 18:10:26 jamesn: most people seem to think it's a VO issue 18:10:26 present+ 18:10:57 Matt_King: i've experienced this, I assumed it wasn't our code, but I was trying with safari so thought maybe it was something unique to webkit. is thre anything about webkit that's different? 18:11:02 jamesn: reproduces in chrome too 18:11:21 jamesn: when VO isn't running, the page doesn't scroll. so to me it seems like VO is doing something 18:11:50 Matt_King: should we close this then, since it's not for APG? 18:12:08 jamesn: fair enough. if I hear back from apple i'll let everyone know 18:12:29 Matt_King: this will certainly affect aria-at 18:12:33 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2040 18:12:57 jamesn: I don't want to escalate 2269 really, it's not reproducible enough 18:13:03 Matt_King: 2040 -- 18:13:44 Matt_King: sounds like something to assign to infrastructure? 18:13:45 Jem: yeah 18:13:50 jongunderson: this can be closed 18:14:45 s/I don't want to escalate 2269 really, it's not reproducible enough/I don't want to escalate as it doesn't reproduce on input type=range/ 18:15:19 next issue is https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2037 18:15:22 Matt_King: added infrastructure label, should be part of the infrastructure project 18:16:41 Matt_King: maybe 2040 didn't get done because it wasn't in the project? it's assigned to Jes 18:17:30 Jem: so this one's about how are we going to best indicate when an exmaple was last updated? 18:17:46 jongunderson: some of our examples are 5-6 years old, and it's hard to tell what's using our most up to date code or not 18:17:53 Matt_King: this should be transferred to apg-redesign 18:18:57 Matt_King: i think i got it transferred 18:19:41 Jem: looks good, next item is.. 18:19:49 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2035 18:20:33 https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.2/examples/dialog-modal/datepicker-dialog.html 18:21:10 MarkMcCarthy: If I'm understanding right, I can't reproduce the issue 18:21:14 jamesn: me either 18:21:18 MarkMcCarthy: I'm using Firefox on Windows 18:21:28 jamesn: i'm using a Mac 18:22:06 jamesn: oh, using Edge on Mac, if I Esc out of the context menu, my selection becomes the thing I right clicked 18:22:26 MarkMcCarthy: oh I see it now too, doing it that way 18:22:37 jamesn: i'm not sure it's a WCAG violation though 18:23:06 Matt_King: but the bug report says context menu doesn't appear, AND selection changes, but you two see a context menu 18:23:39 jamesn: is expected behavior that right click doesn't select? Selecting text, right click, text remains selected (on github for instance) 18:23:54 Matt_King: tempted to say we can't reproduce the problem as described, might need more details 18:24:00 Matt_King: seems it's working as intended 18:24:35 jamesn: it's not a change of context, really, right? maybe kinda... hmm 18:25:06 jamesn: maybe it'd just -work better- if it didn't do that 18:25:12 MarkMcCarthy: i'm inclined to agree 18:25:20 jamesn: i don't think it's enough to disorient a user 18:25:22 MarkMcCarthy: righjt 18:25:28 s/righjt/right 18:25:43 jamesn: pointer cancellation though... I don't think it's that either 18:25:45 Something has come up and I need to drop off. 18:25:54 jamesn: maybe a bug but not a WCAG violation 18:26:16 jamesn: maybe we should look at native date pickers 18:27:02 jongunderson: maybe we ignore the right click then? 18:27:24 jamesn: native picker in edge ignores the right click 18:28:02 MarkMcCarthy: native Windows date picker (e.g. Word) seems to ignore right click also 18:28:17 Jem: so maybe assign to jongunderson and he can explore from there? 18:29:21 Jem: cool. next issue is.. 18:29:23 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2034 18:29:48 Matt_King: we do have a generic show/hide, it's the figure caption one 18:30:09 https://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/examples/disclosure/disclosure-image-description.html 18:30:30 Matt_King: let's ask if this meets the needs described 18:31:34 Jem: got this mentioned and linked on github 18:33:17 TOPIC: Tab PR 18:33:33 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2266 18:34:29 Matt_King: what's the linked issue? 18:34:31 jongunderson: 2044 18:34:36 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2044 18:36:52 siri has joined #aria-apg 18:37:52 [general group grumbling about github's recent changes] 18:38:32 MarkMcCarthy: so what do we need for this PR? 18:38:36 Matt_King: is this only editorial? 18:38:42 jamesn: in my opinion yes 18:39:00 Matt_King: i'll merge this after the meeting, all set 18:39:23 jongunderson: been doing some testing with the right click thing while chatting, it's not detectible with a regular click event 18:39:36 jongunderson has joined #aria-apg 18:39:51 jongunderson: it'd complicate the code to add more to listen for that right click 18:40:24 Matt_King: can you add a comment explaining that particular bit? we'll use that as our decision. 18:40:40 MarkMcCarthy: i agree, not in favor of adding complexity for something so small 18:40:42 jamesn: +1 18:41:00 jongunderson: not to mention it'd affect almost every example 18:41:18 Topic: Accordion Example 18:41:40 Rich_Noah has joined #aria-apg 18:41:45 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/974 18:42:02 present+ 18:42:13 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/974 18:42:28 "Should tabbing/using arrow keys skip over disabled headings? The example uses aria-disabled instead of the disabled attribute for the button, though it appears to me the two accomplish the same goal. I imagine for illustrative purposes, the former was used. Nevertheless, using the disabled attribute disallows focusing, so I'm wondering if the example should be updated for consistency?" 18:43:06 Matt_King: why would we NOT want focus to go there? updated for consistency with what? 18:43:22 Matt_King: did we actually take away arrow key behavior? 18:43:49 https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.2/examples/accordion/accordion.html 18:44:32 siri: i'm not seeing a disabled attribute here 18:44:47 Matt_King: OHHH we updated the example. THIS one doesn't have what the issue is describing 18:45:14 Matt_King: do we have another? besides Sarah's PR? 18:45:20 present + 18:46:09 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/accordion-step-example/examples/accordion/accordion.html 18:46:16 Matt_King: is it okay with the group to say we did do as it's asking, I think Sarah's example includes this? any reason we would NOT want the heading in the tab order? 18:46:21 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/accordion-step-example/examples/accordion/accordion-group.html 18:46:37 we have two accordion examples in progress. 18:48:00 siri: well if it's disabled it should not have focus 18:48:54 Matt_King: in accordions, there's an element that visually appears like an icon/button/etc. in addition to the heading text 18:49:18 MarkMcCarthy: there's a little arrow (and +/- on Sarah's example) showing if something is open or closed, but there's no button or anything 18:49:57 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/accordion-step-example/examples/accordion/accordion-group.html 18:49:58 Matt_King: maybe lets look at Sarah's PRs 18:50:19 Jem: this is the more complex one, has a button wrapped with an h3 18:50:39 https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/examples/accordion/accordion.html 18:51:47 jongunderson: aria-disabled is on the button, it's true when expanded 18:51:54 Matt_King: does it look any differnt visually? 18:51:55 jongunderson: no 18:51:59 yes 18:52:14 Matt_King: so siri's point that it's a little confusing that you can tab to it and not doing anything is kinda confusing 18:52:49 bryan: i've never liked disabling an accordion button like this, vs. one that you're actually not supposed to interact with 18:52:57 present+ BryanGaraventa 18:54:02 bryan: yeah, there are some accordions where you can expand and collapse everything, and others where there's always one open. but that doesn't mean the open one has its button disabled 18:54:17 Matt_King: but the button that collapses it doesn't do anything, so it's better to be disabled - right? 18:54:26 Matt_King: rather than removing the button? 18:54:43 bryan: I see accordions all the time that DON'T use aria-disabled, rather than this kind 18:54:52 Matt_King: because they always allow you to collapse it...right? 18:55:12 bryan: no - you can collapse it by expanding another section 18:55:33 bryan: -expanded is meant to convey the current state, not whether or not you can do something with it. imo 18:56:09 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/fluent-ui/web-components/components/accordion gets disabled when it can't be collapsed 18:56:23 bryan: in other words - I think that, for an active accordion, it's hard to tell if there's a REAL disabled button, rather than this kind of "fake" disabled button 18:56:40 Matt_King: but IF an accordion section is disabled, what does it mean? you cannot expand it? 18:56:45 bryan: yes, it's inactive. 18:57:28 Matt_King: okay, it's collapsed and you can't expand it - so now what about the expanded one? can you NOT change the expanded state unless you go to ANOTHER section header and expand THAT ONE? 18:57:37 Matt_King: ergo, it's disabled. 18:58:01 bryan: okay, but I guess what I'm saying is this is more confusing than what's out in the wild 18:58:34 jongunderson: i think part of this is a UI design preference. APG can't solve those. it CAN say "doing it THIS way, then program it THIS way." 18:58:36 + Jon 18:59:01 jongunderson: we aren't going to (and can't make) a pattern for everybody or dictate what they use 19:00:01 zakim, who is here 19:00:01 MarkMcCarthy, you need to end that query with '?' 19:00:03 zakim, who is here? 19:00:03 Present: MarkMcCarthy, Matt_King, JaeunJemmaKu, jongunderson, CurtBellew, Rich_Noah, BryanGaraventa 19:00:05 On IRC I see Rich_Noah, jongunderson, siri, MarkMcCarthy, Zakim, RRSAgent, Matt_King, Jem, ZoeBijl, github-bot, trackbot, jamesn, MichaelC 19:01:07 jamesn: I did include Microsoft's component if anyone needs an example. 19:01:47 MarkMcCarthy: this will be a good discussion for next week 19:02:49 present+ Siri 19:02:55 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:02:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/05-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy 20:05:36 Jem has joined #aria-apg 20:23:43 Jem has joined #aria-apg 21:17:59 Zakim has left #aria-apg 22:24:23 Jem has joined #aria-apg