16:53:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:53:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/31-aria-irc
16:53:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:53:36 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:53:38 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:53:44 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
16:53:48 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:53:48 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:53:48 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20220331T130000
16:53:48 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:53:48 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3qOJLJf
16:53:49 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3JWvYrF
16:53:51 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:53:54 <agendabot> agenda+  -> ARIA APG migration plan - latest preview https://main--wai-aria-practices2.netlify.app/
16:54:40 <jamesn> agenda+ [Update paragraph in option to remove DOM focus requirement #1682](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1662)
16:54:40 <jamesn> agenda+  [Support aria-description](https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69)
16:54:40 <jamesn> agenda+  [Secondary actions on items in composite widget roles](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440)
16:54:59 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
16:55:13 <jamesn> regrets+ PeterKrautzberger
16:55:39 <jamesn> agenda+ Meeting Time
16:55:45 <jamesn> agenda?
16:56:00 <jamesn> agenda is 1,2,3,4,8,5,6,7
16:56:10 <jamesn> zakim, agenda is 1,2,3,4,8,5,6,7
16:56:10 <Zakim> sorry, jamesn, I do not recognize a party named 'agenda'
16:56:20 <jamesn> agenda order is 1,2,3,4,8,5,6,7
16:56:37 <jamesn> s/agenda is 1,2,3,4,8,5,6,7//
16:56:46 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:56:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/31-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:00:48 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
17:01:01 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:01:02 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria
17:01:44 <chlane> big fan of Sarah's tooltip rant
17:02:08 <Jaunita_George> Jaunita_George has joined #aria
17:02:34 <chlane> scribe: chlane
17:02:45 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
17:02:45 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3qOJLJf -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:02:46 <myasonik> myasonik has joined #aria
17:03:03 <myasonik> present+
17:03:11 <siri_> siri_ has joined #aria
17:03:17 <joeyang_> joeyang_ has joined #aria
17:03:19 <chlane> 1717 editorial
17:03:26 <spectranaut> present+ valerie_young
17:03:30 <joeyang_> present+
17:03:37 <siri_> Present+
17:03:39 <Jaunita_George> Present+
17:03:42 <StefanS> present+
17:03:47 <chlane> 1716
17:03:58 <chlane> scott looking at it
17:04:23 <chlane> assinging to scott
17:05:07 <chlane> aam 393
17:05:20 <chlane> scott looking rewriting that
17:05:37 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
17:05:37 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3JWvYrF -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:05:39 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:05:46 <scotto> present+
17:05:56 <chlane> zakim. close this item
17:06:04 <chlane> zakim, close this item
17:06:04 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
17:06:05 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:06:05 <Zakim> 3. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
17:06:08 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
17:06:08 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:07:02 <chlane> dialogs rescheduled to 4/7
17:07:20 <chlane> week after next, follow up on secondary actions if needed
17:07:37 <chlane> other thing, have an Open UI catchup
17:07:45 <chlane> scotto: agrees
17:08:01 <chlane> jamesn: should we do that on 4/14?
17:08:36 <chlane> sarah_higley can attend
17:09:22 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
17:09:22 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> ARIA APG migration plan - latest preview https://main--wai-aria-practices2.netlify.app/ -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:09:58 <chlane> website rather than a note
17:10:04 <chlane> won't be versioned
17:10:14 <chlane> things will break
17:10:30 <chlane> target is GAAD for the site to go live 5/19?
17:10:47 <chlane> GAAD is 5/19
17:10:53 <chlane> people can see latest preview
17:11:07 <chlane> jamesn: some things in flux
17:11:21 <chlane> not complete, major comments speak up
17:13:03 <Jem> Jem has joined #aria
17:13:21 <chlane> ask questions using mailing list
17:14:02 <chlane> JaEun is available for questions
17:14:23 <chlane> still reviewing content you can also file an issue in their github
17:14:46 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
17:14:46 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- Meeting Time -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:15:10 <chlane> jamesn: one attendee can't make current time due it being 3am for him
17:15:28 <Jem> agenda?
17:15:29 <chlane> jamesn: what is the earliest or latest time in the day
17:16:20 <chlane> jamesn: if we want to have a global meeting ... trying to think about to make it work for all
17:16:44 <chlane> scotto: will have to choose between this and open UI if pushed an hour later
17:16:53 <chlane> jamesn: could change the meeting day
17:17:02 <chlane> 3am or 4am not suitable
17:17:07 <MarkMcCarthy> s/scotto: will have to choose between this and open UI if pushed an hour later/
17:17:58 <chlane> jamesn: will put in a poll
17:18:13 <chlane> jamesn: or different times/weeks
17:18:26 <chlane> people may miss
17:18:31 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
17:18:31 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Update paragraph in option to remove DOM focus requirement #1682](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1662) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:19:27 <MarkMcCarthy> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1682
17:19:29 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1682
17:19:46 <chlane> 1682 is the correct one
17:19:57 <chlane> sarah_higley was looking at it
17:20:30 <chlane> sarah_higley: talked about this 28 days ago
17:20:37 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1682#issuecomment-1058488408
17:20:46 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:21:00 <chlane> sarah_higley: 1682 needs discussion
17:21:20 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
17:21:20 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [Support aria-description](https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:22:18 <chlane> bryan doesn't know current status, aaron had family emergency
17:22:31 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
17:22:31 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- [Secondary actions on items in composite widget roles](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:22:42 <jamesn> https://gist.github.com/smhigley/8dbe67f834cc472e3a14bf6b289e6f0c
17:22:45 <chlane> sarah_higley: wrote a proposal for aria-actions
17:22:58 <chlane> takes an ID list of secondary actions
17:23:02 <chlane> for an element
17:23:08 <chlane> would effect naming algo
17:23:33 <chlane> children would be normally be skipped
17:23:46 <chlane> aria-controls should refer back
17:24:28 <chlane> should be allowed on other roles
17:24:44 <chlane> jamesC brought that up, and video play/pause/mute
17:24:58 <chlane> range of roles this would be allowed on?
17:25:00 <StefanS> q+
17:25:09 <chlane> range of roles allowed to be secondary actions?
17:25:23 <chlane> should the allow roles that can be secondary be limited
17:25:24 <chlane> ?
17:25:33 <chlane> q
17:26:11 <chlane> StefanS: adding icons for delete, select, tons of more actions if you press shift f10 for context menu
17:26:23 <chlane> you can always have more actions than depicted
17:26:44 <chlane> context menus and keyboard shortcuts should also be considered
17:27:00 <chlane> list items, options that contains a click handler
17:27:17 <chlane> aria-actions would be valuable for these kind of things
17:27:24 <chlane> q
17:27:46 <StefanS> q-
17:28:06 <chlane> sarah_higley:  context menus are a good point
17:28:28 <chlane> attribute is intended for ID that exist in the DOM only
17:28:47 <chlane> aria-actions would not be necessary if there is a context menu
17:28:58 <chlane> this is more for things in the DOM
17:29:06 <chlane> the ref IDs must exist in the DOM
17:29:24 <chlane> the actual mechanism to expose it would be to announce "three actions available"
17:29:28 <chlane> if I
17:30:04 <cyns> q+ to ask about default keyboard behavior, also wondering if it would be a good idea for a browser to expose these actions as a context menu
17:30:05 <chlane> this attribute is not scoped to that
17:30:23 <chlane> stuff built into browser like key shortcuts, I think it would be great
17:31:04 <chlane> when browsers create <select> menu, more flexible content in native elemennt, browser could add feature
17:31:23 <chlane> scotto: would agree, being explicit is less prone to guesswork
17:31:36 <cyns> +1 to scotto
17:31:56 <MarkMcCarthy> q+ Siri
17:32:09 <jamesn> ack cyns
17:32:09 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to ask about default keyboard behavior, also wondering if it would be a good idea for a browser to expose these actions as a context menu
17:32:20 <chlane> cyns: wondering what default kb behavior be?
17:32:43 <chlane> tabs stops, if running a screeen reader different behavior?
17:32:57 <chlane> might be useful for a browser to collect things?
17:33:17 <chlane> sarah_higley: would love if browsers collect ref ids and put them in a context menu
17:33:37 <chlane> sarah_higley: what roles are allowed? would be really cool
17:33:50 <chlane> virtual/cursor suggested shoulds/musts
17:33:59 <chlane> ref controls must exist in the dom
17:34:14 <jamesn> q+ to ask if we are limiting secondary action roles?
17:34:23 <chlane> there must be a keyboard mechanism to navigate between primary/secondary
17:34:32 <chlane> linear list left/right arrows
17:34:49 <chlane> context dependent linear vs tree
17:35:08 <chlane> the aria attribute should specify kb behaviors
17:35:22 <chlane> cyns: no change to default behavior
17:35:34 <chlane> sarah_higley: say mechanism exists
17:35:52 <chlane> select menu in open UI would be the best place to talk about it
17:36:03 <MarkMcCarthy> ask Si
17:36:07 <jamesn> ack Siri
17:36:08 <MarkMcCarthy> s/ask Si/
17:36:32 <chlane> siri_: likes approach, social media like buttons can be informed to screen reader users
17:36:43 <chlane> how to tie up with message, it will help
17:37:28 <chlane> if you reference by ID, having so many buttons, if we want to provide an explicit label for all is it repetetive, too much?
17:37:51 <chlane> sarah_higley: part of the mechanism, is to change acc name step 2 f3 processing children
17:38:30 <chlane> secondary action children would not contribute to the accname
17:38:42 <chlane> don't know how screen reader will expose
17:38:55 <chlane> something like "three actions available"
17:39:10 <chlane> a UX choice for screen reader vendors
17:39:27 <chlane> scotto: would solve details summary list
17:40:06 <chlane> scotto: taking a page from voiceover, navigate to heading with nested element and hearing "heading with 3 items"
17:40:11 <MarkMcCarthy> sarah_higley: +1
17:40:13 <jamesn> ack me
17:40:13 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to ask if we are limiting secondary action roles?
17:40:18 <chlane> q
17:40:25 <chlane> q-
17:41:03 <chlane> scotto: VO does that , made plea to jaws to do similar
17:41:07 <jamesn> q+ Bryan
17:41:09 <MarkMcCarthy> q+ Bryan
17:41:11 <chlane> bryan on queue
17:41:31 <chlane> jamesn: are we limiting the things that can be secondary actions?
17:41:34 <jcraig> q+
17:42:11 <chlane> jamesn: only allow certain roles to be secondary actions
17:42:48 <chlane> sarah_higley: combobobox with a combobox secondary actions
17:42:58 <chlane> jamesn: limit to widgets not composites
17:43:02 <jcraig> q+ to suggest limiting the primitive may not be necessary
17:43:13 <chlane> scotto: search field
17:43:39 <chlane> sarah_higley: for a text field, people try to put enter your fav item then there is "other"
17:43:54 <chlane> jamesn: not stop things like that
17:43:59 <chlane> want to limit a bit
17:44:18 <chlane> jamesn: can't imagine a grid a a secondary actions
17:45:00 <chlane> myasonik: tertiary actions?
17:45:19 <chlane> jamesn: takes that pointed
17:45:31 <MarkMcCarthy> q+ Scott
17:45:44 <jcraig> ack b
17:46:00 <chlane> bryan, aria-actions on focusable element and ref the id of the action element?
17:46:03 <chlane> sarah_higley: yes
17:46:16 <myasonik> q+ to ask if we're ok encouraging child actions
17:46:37 <chlane> bryan, what interestets him, the exclusion from recursion in naming, common issue
17:46:50 <chlane> if you have col header that references a aria grid
17:47:04 <jcraig> q+ to mention I'm not even sure the container or the referenced action elements need to limited to focusables
17:47:04 <chlane> menu buttons in columnn header
17:47:13 <chlane> crap is put in acc name
17:47:37 <chlane> would be awesome to find a way to exclude things from algo
17:47:56 <chlane> sarah_higley: was hoping this scenario was covered
17:48:03 <jcraig> ack me
17:48:03 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to suggest limiting the primitive may not be necessary and to mention I'm not even sure the container or the referenced action elements need to limited to
17:48:06 <Zakim> ... focusables
17:48:45 <chlane> jcraig:  see a trend to develop an API, want to encourage those open and primitive
17:48:52 <chlane> to be more flexible
17:49:01 <chlane> limitations lead to workarounds
17:49:09 <chlane> if antipattern arises
17:49:16 <chlane> add futere limitations
17:49:39 <chlane> times when something causes nothing on the doc to be accessible
17:49:49 <chlane> limited to generics
17:50:19 <chlane> checkboxes. textfields could be actions
17:50:27 <chlane> clicking on 'other' button
17:50:36 <chlane> dialog to popup is reasonable
17:50:45 <chlane> video container
17:50:56 <chlane> buttons or click on entire container
17:51:02 <chlane> not limited to specific roles
17:51:12 <chlane> or just focusable
17:51:24 <chlane> limit to AT focusable
17:51:44 <chlane> close action on dialog button not a11y
17:51:53 <chlane> don't stick to the box we have now
17:51:56 <jamesn> q?
17:52:06 <MarkMcCarthy> +1 to jcraig, that seems a reasonable explantion
17:52:10 <sarah_higley> q+
17:52:11 <chlane> keep it primitive and change with antipatterns arrive
17:52:19 <jamesn> zakim, close queue
17:52:19 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed
17:53:13 <chlane> scotto: secondary actions, would remain siblings, could see aria-actions pointing to any interactive element
17:53:47 <chlane> scotto: JAWS still treats these things that's presentational
17:53:58 <chlane> mish mash of error correction in browsers
17:54:09 <chlane> some nested interactives not allowed
17:54:17 <chlane> like textbox inside an option
17:54:35 <jcraig> s/keep it primitive and change with antipatterns arrive/keep it primitive (not overly limited) and ONLY add limitations when antipatterns arise/
17:54:44 <jamesn> q
17:54:53 <jamesn> ack scotto
17:54:58 <jamesn> ack scott
17:54:59 <chlane> scotto: good for column headers but would not resolve bigger issues
17:55:11 <chlane> make abbr attribute on col headers
17:55:19 <jamesn> ack myasonik
17:55:19 <Zakim> myasonik, you wanted to ask if we're ok encouraging child actions
17:55:29 <chlane> myasonik:
17:55:43 <chlane> child action not encouraged in spec?
17:56:09 <chlane> can we limit this to video players and open UI select?
17:56:16 <jamesn> ack sarah_higley
17:56:26 <chlane> do we want to encourage authors to do it
17:56:54 <jcraig> Actions is available on iOS with no limits and app authors use it for a lot of great reasons we never anticipated
17:56:56 <chlane> sarah_higley: make aria-actions an exception to children presentational
17:57:16 <chlane> sarah_higley: the idea of allowed roles as id refs for aria-actions
17:57:25 <chlane> widget roles make sense to me
17:57:53 <chlane> does not make sense to referenc a paragraph with aria-actions
17:58:03 <MarkMcCarthy> ack s
17:58:38 <chlane> limiting will help when encouraging browsers to do something like provide shortcut or add to context menu
17:58:48 <chlane> but over limiting is not great
17:59:11 <chlane> rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/31-aria-minutes.html chlane
17:59:20 <MarkMcCarthy> Seems like a great idea!
17:59:35 <chlane> + MarkMcCarthy
17:59:56 <chlane> james c this does not out the user
18:00:00 <chlane> rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/31-aria-minutes.html chlane
18:01:00 <scotto> great job sarah
18:01:16 <MarkMcCarthy> 🎉
18:01:22 <chlane> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/31-aria-minutes.html chlane
18:02:27 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #aria
18:10:32 <chlane> https://www.w3.org/2022/03/31-aria-minutes.html 1d
18:10:35 <chlane> quit
18:10:39 <chlane> exit