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13:50:41 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
13:50:41 <trackbot> Date: 30 March 2022
13:50:44 <janina> Chair:  Janina
13:50:44 <janina> agenda+ Agenda Review & Announcements
13:50:44 <janina> agenda+ github repositories moved -- Roy
13:50:44 <janina> agenda+ New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22
13:50:47 <janina> agenda+ A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review
13:50:50 <janina> agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html
13:50:52 <janina> agenda+ Dangling Spec Review Cleanup: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:Spec_Review_Assigned
13:50:55 <janina> agenda+ FAST and Maturity Model Deliverables Update
13:50:58 <janina> agenda+ WebXR Open Issues -- Josh
13:51:00 <janina> agenda+ Task Force & Deliverables Updates
13:51:03 <janina> agenda+ Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/open
13:51:05 <janina> agenda+ TPAC (12-16 September) Planning
13:51:08 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
13:51:10 <janina> agenda+ be done
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14:01:38 <Fredrik> present+
14:01:39 <Matthew_Atkinson> present+
14:02:00 <Fredrik> scribe: Fredrik
14:02:11 <janina>  present+
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14:02:15 <Joshue108> present+
14:02:17 <Roy> present+
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14:02:25 <Fredrik> zakim, next item
14:02:25 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Announcements -- taken up [from janina]
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14:03:44 <Fredrik> janina: Agenda flow changed because of the shift betwween Michael and Roy being our staff contacts. Michael is still our senior staff contact.
14:04:20 <Fredrik> zakim, next item
14:04:20 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- github repositories moved -- Roy -- taken up [from janina]
14:04:36 <Roy>  https://github.com/w3c/apa
14:04:41 <Fredrik> Roy: Cocnerning our Github repository for the APA.
14:04:52 <Fredrik> Roy: Formerly we used the repo for our developing documents.
14:05:06 <Roy> https://github.com/w3c/apa#readme
14:05:07 <Fredrik> Roy: We have decieded to split all deliverables into their own repos.
14:05:18 <Fredrik> Roy: I have already done this work. Here is a list to show the new repo address.
14:05:42 <Fredrik> Roy: TAll pull requests, issues and comments have already been transferred to their correct repos.
14:06:28 <Fredrik> Roy: Still some work to do on this, but progressing smoothly.
14:06:50 <Fredrik> janina: all with the object of simplifying hiearchies.
14:07:09 <Fredrik> zakim, next item
14:07:09 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22 -- taken up [from janina]
14:07:49 <Fredrik> MichaelC: No new charters this week.
14:07:52 <Fredrik> zakim, clos ethis item
14:07:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'clos ethis item', Fredrik
14:07:55 <Fredrik> zakim, next item
14:07:55 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, Fredrik
14:08:01 <Fredrik> zakim, clos ethis item
14:08:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'clos ethis item', Fredrik
14:08:16 <Fredrik> zakim, close this item
14:08:16 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
14:08:17 <Zakim> I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:08:17 <Zakim> 4. A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review [from janina]
14:08:22 <Fredrik> zakim, next item
14:08:22 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review -- taken up [from janina]
14:08:33 <MichaelC> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1167
14:08:57 <MichaelC> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/blob/main/accessibility-considerations-explainer.md
14:09:02 <Fredrik> MichaelC: WebXR a11y overview doc. Someone recently flagged it to our attention while also saying it has been completed.
14:09:16 <Fredrik> MichaelC: I think, from a review comment tracker perspective, this should be closed. Do we want to review this thing maybe?
14:09:31 <Fredrik> janina: Maybe. WebXR has a separate item further down. Josh?
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14:10:00 <Fredrik> Joshue108: I would keep an eye on it I guess.
14:10:43 <Fredrik> janina: Any time sensitivity on this?
14:10:55 <Fredrik> MichaelC: I donät know. I think itäs reasonable for us to take a few weeks.
14:11:25 <Fredrik> Fredrik: Iäd do it.
14:11:26 <Joshue108> Fredrik to review
14:11:47 <Joshue108> ACTION: Fredrik to review https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/blob/main/accessibility-considerations-explainer.md
14:11:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2320 - Review https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/blob/main/accessibility-considerations-explainer.md [on Fredrik Fischer - due 2022-04-06].
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14:12:43 <Fredrik> MichaelC: Nothing more ob substance.
14:12:47 <Fredrik> zakim, next item
14:12:47 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html -- taken up [from janina]
14:13:02 <Fredrik> zakim, close this item
14:13:02 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
14:13:03 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:13:03 <Zakim> 6. Dangling Spec Review Cleanup: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:Spec_Review_Assigned [from janina]
14:13:05 <Fredrik> zakim, next item
14:13:05 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Dangling Spec Review Cleanup: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:Spec_Review_Assigned -- taken up [from janina]
14:13:05 <Joshue108> s/ob/of
14:13:40 <Fredrik> MichaelC: I think itäs just the ones assigned...
14:13:55 <Fredrik> MichaelC: I18n glossary. lionel took this one.
14:14:14 <Fredrik> lionel: Everything paused until next week.
14:14:20 <Fredrik> MichaelC: Paul had a spec as well.
14:14:28 <Fredrik> PaulG: Iäve recorded my actions on that.
14:14:32 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:Spec_Review_Active
14:14:41 <Fredrik> MichaelC: I looked through the new active specs (meaning something has happened).
14:14:59 <Fredrik> MichaelC: The first oen is POE Use Cases and Requirements. WG is closed and the spec is hibernated.
14:15:07 <Fredrik> janina: Sounds like we can abandon this.
14:15:17 <Fredrik> MichaelC: I don't know that htis is advancing anywhere.
14:15:59 <Fredrik> MichaelC: Skipping WebXR.
14:16:07 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/WebRTC_Encoded_Transform
14:16:21 <Fredrik> MichaelC: WebRTC Encoeded Transform. Will close that.
14:16:27 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2022/02/09-apa-minutes#t13
14:17:38 <Fredrik> janina: I need to contact them.
14:17:45 <Fredrik> MichaelC: Moving back to assigned because of middleware question.
14:17:50 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Notifications_API
14:18:06 <Fredrik> MichaelC: Notifications API. We filed an issue with them 4½ years ago and had a meeting with them at TPAC. Nothing is recorded since then.
14:18:13 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2017/10/11-apa2-minutes.html
14:18:24 <Fredrik> janina: We had a joint meeting on a teleconference here.
14:19:54 <Fredrik> janina: It's a WHATWG spec and we can negotiate with them about this. There is an a11y consideratiosn section probably failing.
14:20:48 <Fredrik> Fredrik: I'll have a look at it as well.
14:21:27 <Joshue108> ACTION: Fredrik to draft a11y considerations on https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Notifications_API due 5th May
14:21:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2321 - Draft a11y considerations on https://www.w3.org/wai/apa/wiki/notifications_api due 5th may [on Fredrik Fischer - due 2022-04-06].
14:21:50 <Fredrik> MichaelC: That is it!
14:21:54 <Fredrik> zakim, next item
14:21:54 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- FAST and Maturity Model Deliverables Update -- taken up [from janina]
14:22:05 <Fredrik> subtopic: FAST
14:22:37 <Fredrik> Joshue108: We met during the week with the a11y for Chidlren CG. They are interested in our work and they highlighted a little about what is interesting about children and a11y and cognitive disabilities and so on.
14:22:50 <janina> q+
14:22:57 <Fredrik> Joshue108: They are quite interested inteh matrix that we have, the user needs and requirements. WE took them a little throught his. They will work off our main functional needs document.
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14:23:09 <Fredrik> Joshue108: They will develop their own functional and user needs documents which we can then incorporate into our documents.
14:23:15 <Lionel_Wolberger_> present+
14:23:49 <Fredrik> MichaelC: The functional needs subgroup has been workingon this matrix of functional categories and user needs as part of trying to figure out how WCAT2 success criteria might fit into WCAG3.
14:24:23 <Fredrik> MichaelC: This also included breaking them down into slices in order to try to have versions that matter only to one type of content or to one type of test. Then we coudl take those slices and fit them into WCA3 in different ways.
14:24:50 <Joshue108> s/WCAT2/WCAG2
14:24:52 <Fredrik> MichaelC: It's an attempt to get things from one space to another so to speak. No one is committing to anything, but some of us are finding it a useful way to think about things.
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14:25:36 <Fredrik> janina: One issue that kind of jumped out of the work of this group that is focusing on the needs of children came to the attention of Pronunciation. There might be solid use cases to say that when you do TTS you should do a child's voice.
14:25:46 <Fredrik> janina: We don't have any way to specify that.
14:26:54 <Fredrik> janina: The use cases laid out are as folows: among other thigns in pronunciation we are trying to lock in hwo you say something. It's more than just heteronyms and abbreviations.
14:27:20 <Fredrik> janina: One that keeps coming up is pronouncing historical content. Does the language tag in HTML suffice to identify a language for TTS purposes? I have become confinced that is does not.
14:27:37 <Joshue108> q?
14:27:37 <janina> ack ja
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14:28:37 <Fredrik> janina: Soem language will even split out specific dialects. What none of these codes do is provide anything historical. The argument is that Shakespearean English isn't pronounced like current English, neither is koine Greek pronounced the way today's Greek is.
14:28:43 <Fazio> that was going to be my question: how important is this?
14:28:59 <Fredrik> janina: Koine Greek was the lingua franca of the Roman empire, in case you didn't know.
14:29:36 <Fredrik> janina: We might need something time based. If we can buidl it into a set of rules or a TTS engine to be called up by a tag.
14:30:19 <Fredrik> janina: With TTS increasingly becomign an a11y requirement but also a mainstream technology, historical pronunciation, accurate pronunciation may be useful. Build in the children's group here - you want to be able to contemporise English but you also want a child's voice.
14:30:38 <Fredrik> janina: You need the letter-ladies to make the children comfortable with the communciation. We have a little researching to do.
14:31:11 <Fredrik> janina: We have to validate the premise that this doesn't exist curently in Unicode, ISO or any other standard pertaining to the subject. We are rapidly getting to a web-based world where we need that kind of identifier.
14:31:34 <Fredrik> janina: FYI: we're emerging anothe rrequirement that is probably coning to be an APA-I18n conversation during tPAC.
14:31:35 <janina> q?
14:31:42 <janina> ack li
14:32:02 <Fredrik> Lionel_Wolberger_: I find these issues very important and we need dto sort through them quickly and find out where they belong paygradewise.
14:32:30 <Fredrik> Lionel_Wolberger_: The built environment is not made for hildren, most homes aren't, and TTS and screen readers aren't made for children either. It's deep.
14:32:57 <Fredrik> Lionel_Wolberger_: I went through all community groups to find out which a11y groups are alive and which not. It's good to hear that thte children's a11y is.
14:33:13 <Fredrik> q+
14:33:33 <Fredrik> Lionel_Wolberger_: We could ask the screen reader companies about TTS and other technologies for and/or by children.
14:33:42 <Fredrik> Lionel_Wolberger_: Children tend to respond to children's voices.
14:34:27 <Fredrik> Lionel_Wolberger_: That CG thing, we can let that simmer. I would like to capture that the Children CG is active.
14:34:36 <Fredrik> janina: We have a list somewhere. Lionel took a look.
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14:35:29 <Fredrik> Lionel_Wolberger_: I doidn't mean to say TTS and SR aren't made for children. The voices aren't made for children, or have childrenh's voices.
14:35:57 <janina> ack fr
14:36:09 <Lionel_Wolberger_> s/aren't made/are not primarily made
14:36:12 <Joshue108> ack s/doidn't/don't
14:39:02 <Matthew_Atkinson> rrsagent, make minutes
14:39:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/30-apa-minutes.html Matthew_Atkinson
14:39:35 <Fredrik> Lionel_Wolberger_: There is also a number of companies doing speech to text work.
14:39:45 <Fredrik> Fredrik: Don't mix up engines for the creation fo speech and the voices themselves.
14:40:32 <Fazio> cochlear implants too
14:40:32 <Fredrik> Lionel_Wolberger_: It is in our scope to understand voice recognition and uiquitous computing, understanding people who cannot form consonants and vowels, epope who have musculars disorders and so on. some private companies with very promising technologies which are succeeeding in understanding highly differently formed speech.
14:40:52 <Fredrik> Lionel_Wolberger_: Also, what you might heare form a d/Deaf person learning to speak, those kinds of consonatns and vowels.
14:41:51 <Fazio> that creates attentional set
14:42:00 <Fazio> it's a cognitive process
14:42:13 <Fredrik> janina: With any of those conditions that Lionel named (it could be cultural as well, sociolects and so on). Would it be useful in teaching children to read if you show them standard written text but give them pronunciation closer to what they would speak?
14:42:49 <Fazio> q+
14:43:12 <Fredrik> janina: I can almost see an agenda for our meeting with i18n forming.
14:43:25 <janina> ack Fredrik
14:43:33 <janina> ack fa
14:43:55 <Fredrik> Fazio: This is importnat ot the attentional set. We creat our images of how soemthing will look based on past experiences. In our minds we have an attentioanl set we react to in terms of understanding.
14:44:50 <Fredrik> zakim, next item
14:44:50 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- WebXR Open Issues -- Josh -- taken up [from janina]
14:45:10 <Fredrik> subtopic: WebXR
14:45:28 <Fredrik> Joshue108: The purpose of this is to walk through some of hte comments I have posted on different specs of WebXR.
14:45:39 <Fredrik> Joshue108: I have sent a few pings to the list. I'll go through each one.
14:45:39 <Joshue108> WebXR DOM Overlays Module FPWD
14:45:47 <Fredrik> Joshue108: WebXR DOM Overlays.
14:46:18 <Fredrik> Joshue108: This module descirbes a mechanism for showing interactive 2D content during a VR experience. Thsi DOM Overlays module can be quite useful rfor rendering semantics within an XR environment.
14:46:37 <Joshue108> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa/2021Sep/0032.html
14:46:40 <Fredrik> jsohI had some questions relating to this.
14:47:17 <Fredrik> Joshue108: My concerns were that the APA has reviewd the spec. If this module is content accesible.. If this module can be used as a container for accessibility semantics. And if this has been considered.
14:47:42 <Fredrik> Joshue108: I worte this response six months ago.
14:48:43 <Fredrik> Joshue108: There are three of these comments. One has been dealt with.
14:48:53 <Fredrik> janina: Anyone mind forwarding those right now as they are?
14:49:16 <Fredrik> Joshue108: Michael had some comments here. He made some comment about this before.
14:49:32 <Fredrik> janina: We give better responses when we can suggest solutions. Sometimes, thoguh, we simply don't know the answer.
14:50:12 <Fredrik> Joshue108: This is an imporntat hook for a11y technolgoies in XR environments.
14:50:23 <Fredrik> janina: Is the Silver groupon XR still active?
14:50:32 <Fredrik> Joshue108: At least I haven't been active on it for a while.
14:50:47 <Fredrik> janina: We are looking for someone who would be in a position to follow up on XR issues.
14:51:09 <Fredrik> Joshue108: URIs are in the minutes here, they can be used as bthe basis for more detailed repsonses if you like.
14:51:39 <Fredrik> Joshue108: The next one is the review of the WebXR Hit Test module.
14:51:39 <Joshue108> WebXR Hit Test Module FPWD
14:51:44 <Joshue108> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa/2021Sep/0033.html
14:52:22 <Fredrik> Joshue108: This describes a mechanism to allow WebXR apps to ccast rays into the user's environmetn. It's essentialoloy hit testing in the user's environment.
14:52:37 <Fredrik> Joshue108: When a signal from an AR defice hits something the real world, soemthing can be put upon that surface.
14:52:51 <Fredrik> Joshue108: It is rather low level. My point is that it bubles fast, it becomes important quickly.
14:53:05 <Fredrik> Joshue108: It has privacy implications as well if you ahve the capabilities of scanning a user's environemtn.
14:53:32 <Fredrik> Joshue108: I did a boilerplate response.
14:53:50 <Fredrik> Joshue108: I think we would want to flag privacy as a concern. There are however more sensitivtiies with PWDs.
14:54:01 <Fredrik> Joshue108: There may also be issues related to orientation with this module.
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14:54:49 <Joshue108> WebXR Layers API Level 1
14:54:55 <Joshue108> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa/2022Jan/0011.html
14:54:57 <Fredrik> Joshue108: WebXR Layers API Level 1.
14:55:02 <Joshue108> https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/278
14:55:09 <Fredrik> Joshue108: It is kind of resolved. I posted an issue in the immersive Web Grpouip Github relating to this.
14:55:24 <Fredrik> Joshue108: We had this question aroudn the resolution aroudn eye buffers.
14:55:45 <Fredrik> Joshue108: Would this lead to issues for people with captions or legibility issues in such a setting?
14:56:22 <Fredrik> Joshue108: That was all on that Github and it is still an open issue.
14:56:46 <Lionel_Wolberger_> q+
14:56:47 <Fredrik> janina: Captions could conceivably be rendered at another resolution even if the background is downsampled?
14:56:53 <Fredrik> Joshue108: Basically, yes.
14:56:58 <Joshue108> ack lion
14:57:00 <Fredrik> ack Lionel_Wolberger_
14:57:01 <janina> ack li
14:57:42 <Fredrik> Lionel_Wolberger_: I was absorbing the WebXR Hit discussion. I recalled our original discussion. Your response in teh summary didn't cover, I could be wrong, if I put rays in my environment and the reays rays find that I'm sitting in a wheelchair, that is a kind fo privacy that would be a concern, right?
14:58:11 <Lionel_Wolberger_> "APA are asking if there any aspects of how assistive  technology may use or interact this the dynamics of this module that are  of concern?"
14:58:14 <Fredrik> Joshue108: jAll of these things increase the fingerprinting surface. We need to be careful with people's privacy.
14:59:50 <Fredrik> Joshue108: That's basically it from my side.
14:59:50 <Lionel_Wolberger_> Our privacy concern goes to the fact that rays in the user's environment may detect artificial limbs, wheelchairs, canes and other artifacts that would reveal highly private information.
15:00:06 <Fredrik> janina: Thanks for that in particular and thanks for all you've done in all the last years.
15:00:12 <Fredrik> Joshue108: I will be back in any shape or form.
15:00:33 <Fredrik> janina: I know there a re a couple of actions due next week - one of them ine.
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15:01:02 <Fredrik> janina: Quick reminder of the actions page.
15:01:05 <janina> http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my
15:01:55 <Fredrik> janina: TPAC: We did respond. There will be others. We will create our own page soon. Not yet. Today we had a good conversation about i18n. We do expect a good number of us will be in Vancouver.
15:03:39 <Fredrik> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/30-apa-minutes.html Fredrik
15:16:39 <Fredrik> zakim
15:16:41 <Fredrik> bye rrsagent
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16:04:56 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: APA Teleconference; Wednesday 6 April at 1400Z
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