14:01:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pwe
14:01:21 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/29-pwe-irc
14:01:23 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:01:24 <Zakim> Meeting: Positive Work Environment CG
14:02:00 <Ralph> present: Liz, WendyReid, Sheila_Moussavi, Chris_Wilson
14:02:05 <Ralph> present+
14:02:08 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #pwe
14:02:29 <wendyreid> present+
14:03:54 <sheila> sheila has joined #pwe
14:04:01 <wendyreid> scribe+
14:04:21 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pwe/2022Mar/0005.html
14:04:39 <Ralph> agenda+ Inclusion fund discussion [Liz]
14:04:49 <Ralph> agenda+ Ombuds budget [Sheila]
14:05:00 <Ralph> agenda+ ombuds vs mediator vs investigation vs escalation of criminal activity - how should W3C approach these? [Liz]
14:05:07 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: Let's get started then
14:05:08 <Ralph> agenda+ Scheduling in april [Tzviya]
14:05:12 <Ralph> zakim, next item
14:05:12 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Inclusion fund discussion -- taken up [from Liz]
14:05:14 <wendyreid> ... Inclusion fund discussion
14:05:24 <wendyreid> ... call out for anyone interested in participating this year
14:05:31 <wendyreid> ... we have last year's documentation
14:05:43 <wendyreid> ... we should put it in a more permanent place, and revise it
14:05:56 <wendyreid> ... I think we're assuming it will be an in-person event this year
14:05:58 <Ralph> i|scribe+|-> https://www.w3.org/2022/03/01-pwe-minutes.html previous 1 March
14:06:07 <wendyreid> ... or hybrid, what will that look like
14:06:26 <wendyreid> ... three people from this group do a shortlist of the submissions, send to W3C for selection
14:06:35 <Ralph> chair: Liz
14:06:38 <wendyreid> sheila: I'll do it!
14:06:41 <wendyreid> wendyreid: I'll do it
14:06:56 <wendyreid> sheila: Is there something you're looking for in particular?
14:06:59 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: Anyone
14:07:03 <wendyreid> ... couple of responsibilities
14:07:06 <wendyreid> ... revise the documents
14:09:32 <wendyreid> ... move them to GitHub
14:09:32 <wendyreid> ... write some comms for announcements
14:09:32 <wendyreid> ... work with W3M Comms to make a better announcement
14:09:33 <wendyreid> ... then shortlisting and recommending people to fund
14:09:33 <wendyreid> ... last year almost all the submissions were lacking
14:09:33 <wendyreid> ... the legitimate ones were approved
14:09:34 <wendyreid> ... I wonder if there is a way to help filter the submissions better
14:09:34 <wendyreid> q+
14:09:34 <wendyreid> ... are you both on ET?
14:09:35 <wendyreid> sheila: Yes
14:09:35 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Yes
14:09:35 <wendyreid> Ralph: For getting better proposal requests
14:09:36 <wendyreid> ... useful to document
14:09:36 <wendyreid> ... you're always going to get "spam"
14:09:43 <wendyreid> ... but we can tweak the language
14:09:53 <wendyreid> ... one question
14:10:06 <wendyreid> ... separate action to create the ask for sponsors for next year
14:10:17 <wendyreid> ... to be added to the ask
14:10:37 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: That's more W3M, we just reused the previous ones, but we can structure it a bit better problem
14:10:55 <wendyreid> ... looking at it from a content design perspective, it's a bit all over the place
14:11:07 <wendyreid> q-
14:11:12 <Ralph> zakim, next item
14:11:12 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Ombuds budget -- taken up [from Sheila]
14:11:22 <wendyreid> sheila: We presented this a while back
14:11:31 <wendyreid> ... funding needed to build an ombuds program
14:11:38 <wendyreid> ... full team training plus ombuds stipend
14:11:43 <wendyreid> ... compensating ombuds
14:11:52 <wendyreid> ... $26k / year
14:12:10 <wendyreid> ... for training, 2 trainings twice annually, 4hrs at $1500/hour
14:12:18 <wendyreid> ... annual total of $12k
14:12:21 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2022/02/15-pwe-minutes.html#t01 15-Feb discussion of Ombuds training
14:12:31 <wendyreid> ... stipends, 4 ombuds at 70hrs per year
14:12:35 <wendyreid> ... $50/hour
14:12:45 <wendyreid> ... reasonable and managable budget
14:12:48 <wendyreid> ... $14k
14:12:59 <wendyreid> ... the next thing we discussed was putting together a pitch
14:13:08 <wendyreid> ... to present to W3M or to find a sponsor
14:13:22 <wendyreid> ... I was waiting to take that next step, and I'm read y to do it whenever
14:13:26 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: Any thoughts?
14:13:34 <wendyreid> ... can we combine it with the ask for investigators
14:13:38 <wendyreid> ... case management workers
14:13:41 <wendyreid> ... would increase it
14:13:47 <wendyreid> ... we've not looked into that yet
14:13:53 <wendyreid> sheila: Sounds good to me
14:14:02 <wendyreid> ... does that feel like the right breakdown of costs?
14:14:10 <wendyreid> ... we're estimating
14:14:16 <wendyreid> ... it really is a stipend
14:14:29 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: We assume most things will be related to virtual
14:14:38 <wendyreid> sheila: We might need to pad it
14:14:39 <cwilso> q+
14:14:42 <wendyreid> ... all costs in USD
14:14:45 <wendyreid> q+
14:14:52 <wendyreid> cwilso: This sounds really well put together
14:14:57 <wendyreid> ... on travel
14:15:01 <wendyreid> ... I might mention that in future
14:15:11 <wendyreid> ... we'd want to make sure there is some support at TPAC
14:15:25 <wendyreid> ... it's probably naturally accomplishable
14:15:30 <wendyreid> ... this feels cheap, I might pad it
14:15:38 <wendyreid> ... let's take it to W3M
14:15:52 <wendyreid> sheila: Once we take it to W3M we could add a travel budget
14:15:53 <cwilso> s/pad/make sure we're accounting for growth in the future/
14:16:06 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: Possibly have an expenses line
14:16:11 <wendyreid> ... for documents and such
14:16:34 <wendyreid> sheila: Agreed, I think the thing people will be most resistant to is the ombuds
14:16:42 <wendyreid> ... easier pitch for mediators and investigators
14:16:50 <wendyreid> ... anything we can do as a budget across roles might help
14:16:56 <wendyreid> ... but I understand
14:17:01 <cwilso> ack cw
14:18:29 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Travel for ombuds should be considered, since we'd want at least one present at TPAC
14:18:39 <wendyreid> Ralph: Agreed with cwilso, look at other orgs
14:18:52 <wendyreid> ... what do they do in terms of stipends or compensation
14:19:01 <wendyreid> sheila: I can find some corrolaries
14:19:15 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: Add those items to the budget, and I'll look at investigators and mediators
14:19:22 <Ralph> s/cwilso/cwilso's thanks for putting this together
14:19:26 <wendyreid> ... try and find some US based ones
14:19:41 <wendyreid> ... anything else on that?
14:19:51 <Ralph> zakim, next item
14:19:51 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Ralph
14:20:00 <Ralph> zakim, next item
14:20:00 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- ombuds vs mediator vs investigation vs escalation of criminal activity - how should W3C approach these? -- taken up [from Liz]
14:20:15 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: Next thing, my attempt at refining the roles
14:20:27 <wendyreid> ... four levels
14:20:36 <wendyreid> ... ombudsperson, entry level
14:20:47 <wendyreid> ... a union rep of sorts, give advice, help with CEPC, provide support
14:20:55 <wendyreid> ... signpost other areas of information or service
14:21:01 <wendyreid> ... they themselves don't resolve issues
14:21:18 <wendyreid> Ralph: That's an interesting distinction
14:21:24 <wendyreid> ... between ombud and mediator
14:21:32 <wendyreid> ... I think they are currently combined in our current process
14:21:35 <wendyreid> ... the waypost role
14:21:42 <wendyreid> ... is consistent with the stipend discussed
14:21:47 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: I think it would be
14:22:07 <wendyreid> ... in my experience, as a union rep, the caseload was consistently 20+ people
14:22:17 <wendyreid> Ralph: And no mediation
14:22:29 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: Yes, I just attended meetings, and supported
14:22:34 <wendyreid> ... it would also require more training
14:22:49 <wendyreid> ... would the training we're considering include mediation?
14:22:59 <wendyreid> Ralph: I wonder if the budget is sufficient if we're considering this
14:23:06 <wendyreid> sheila: I thought of it as separate
14:23:20 <wendyreid> ... I don't know of any circumstances where an ombud would also serve as mediator
14:23:21 <Ralph> s/this/this as separate from the mediator role
14:23:39 <wendyreid> ... I think mediation transcends the ombud role
14:23:59 <wendyreid> ... some of these points are qualifications
14:24:08 <wendyreid> ... are these expectations?
14:24:15 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: Yes this would be part of the roles
14:24:37 <wendyreid> cwilso: In the past, systems I've been a part of haven't had this disctinction
14:24:46 <wendyreid> ... I think the union rep analogy is helpful
14:24:56 <wendyreid> ... I think there's a line you cross when you try to resolve an issue
14:25:00 <wendyreid> ... you would need more training
14:25:08 <wendyreid> ... I wonder how much of what you put with ombuds
14:25:13 <wendyreid> ... would be innate to other roles
14:25:41 <wendyreid> ... I'm not sure if we offer too many roles to people if they'll know how to interact with the system
14:25:46 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: It's definitely a risk
14:25:52 <wendyreid> ... there's a number of options in my department
14:25:56 <wendyreid> ... and it confuses people
14:25:59 <wendyreid> ... the difference is
14:26:12 <wendyreid> ... where you can have an internal volunteer vs needing a paid professional
14:26:22 <wendyreid> ... where they are trained to resolve issues
14:26:35 <wendyreid> ... in other orgs, we have a top layer to help interpret or understand
14:26:40 <wendyreid> ... ombuds serve there
14:26:52 <wendyreid> ... in terms of conflict, you don't want to have people who are involved
14:27:07 <wendyreid> ... depending on the issue, people will not trust an internal view of the issue
14:27:11 <wendyreid> ... they'll assume bad faith
14:27:26 <wendyreid> ... perceived history
14:27:34 <wendyreid> ... to get around it, you bring in someone external
14:27:54 <wendyreid> ... bring someone in who doesn't care about the context or relationships
14:28:11 <wendyreid> ... hopefully, 90% of the cases are handled by ombuds, and the remaining 10% go on to mediation
14:28:32 <wendyreid> cwilso: I think it makes sense, udnerstanding how frequently certain roles are brought in
14:28:37 <tzviya> present+
14:28:44 <wendyreid> ... in some cases a chair could take a role
14:28:55 <wendyreid> ... I sent a mail about this to the list last week
14:29:09 <wendyreid> ... the role we're taking on with ombuds is understanding and applying CEPC
14:29:20 <wendyreid> ... if it's not the chair, within the group, we'll need someone outside with experience
14:29:26 <Ralph> [-> https://github.com/cwilso/standards-of-behavior Chris's document "Improving Standards of Behavior in Standards Discussions" ]
14:29:32 <wendyreid> ... providing impartial advice is a challenge
14:29:58 <wendyreid> ... I'm just trying to think through how you easily explain this process to someone who has a problem
14:30:04 <wendyreid> ... basically, go get an ombud
14:30:10 <wendyreid> ... they can steer you through the process
14:30:23 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: These are just definitions for now
14:30:26 <wendyreid> ... there's no context
14:30:37 <wendyreid> sheila: Complicating factor here, most of the time it's a progression
14:30:52 <wendyreid> ... part of the value in an ombud, is giving someone more than one option of someone to turn to when they have an issue
14:31:09 <wendyreid> ... it would be ok for someone to leapfrog the ombud if they feel they need someone else
14:31:27 <wendyreid> ... we want to include language explaining it's ok, but here is the process
14:31:38 <tzviya> +1 to sheila
14:31:40 <wendyreid> ... from the DEI lens, you want people to have options
14:31:44 <cwilso> +1
14:31:47 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: Exactly how it works in our org
14:31:53 <Ralph> +1 to Sheila's points
14:32:07 <wendyreid> ... you can start with your manager, but if it's your manager that is the issue, you can go to other places
14:32:11 <wendyreid> ... it's never one or the other
14:32:14 <wendyreid> ... here are the optiosn
14:32:28 <wendyreid> ... I think we'd emphasize talking to an ombuds first
14:32:38 <wendyreid> ... because investigation and mediation will have a cost
14:32:47 <wendyreid> Ralph: Thanks Liz
14:32:55 <wendyreid> ... this is a useful distinction between the roles
14:33:03 <wendyreid> ... I value your experience
14:33:19 <wendyreid> ... ombuds as a union rep, not an unreasonable analogy
14:33:42 <wendyreid> ... but it breaks down for me, because our community doesn't have the same employee/employer relationship
14:34:00 <wendyreid> ... this does help, we have to distinguish those who are expected to provide advice
14:34:20 <wendyreid> ... you approach the people you know who have this knowledge
14:34:33 <wendyreid> ... my concern, in Feb, when we first discussed the budget, the number of hours
14:34:47 <wendyreid> ... included mediation in the estimate
14:34:55 <wendyreid> ... they are combined currently in W3C
14:35:09 <wendyreid> ... I'm worried about the estimate
14:35:24 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: I think it'll be slightly impossible to project time since we don't have previous data
14:35:30 <wendyreid> ... we won't know until this is in place
14:35:41 <wendyreid> ... I don't necessarily think it's bad to combine the roles
14:35:49 <wendyreid> ... it does limit the pool of candidates
14:36:10 <wendyreid> Ralph: Not disagreeing, but the estimates might need to change
14:36:20 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: Maybe having a combined budget can help with this breakdown
14:36:23 <Ralph> s/estimates/time estimates
14:36:31 <wendyreid> ... Mediator, chairs can serve this role but require training
14:36:43 <cwilso> strong  +1 that chairs should have mediator training
14:36:52 <tzviya> q+
14:36:55 <wendyreid> ... Investigator, this is a serious allegation, require a professional
14:37:01 <wendyreid> ... empowered to investigate
14:37:09 <wendyreid> ... interviewing, gathering evidence
14:37:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/29-pwe-minutes.html Ralph
14:38:11 <wendyreid> ... within the procedure we've written, their report goes to W3M for disciplinary action
14:38:30 <wendyreid> ... how this is handled can be done different ways
14:38:40 <wendyreid> ... you would likely want an external party to do this
14:38:56 <wendyreid> ... final one, if there is a crime, you report to police
14:39:01 <wendyreid> ... where do you report it?
14:39:08 <Ralph> s/LizLutgendorff_/Liz/G
14:39:23 <wendyreid> ... if its online, and they are from a different country, complicated
14:39:33 <wendyreid> sheila: Is there a world where we can explore alternatives
14:39:44 <wendyreid> ... to the police? Or assuming a solution
14:39:50 <wendyreid> ... international nature makes this complex
14:39:57 <wendyreid> ... alternatives to the police
14:40:04 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: Just initial impressions
14:40:18 <wendyreid> ... most extreme cases
14:40:23 <wendyreid> ... but there could be alternatives
14:40:54 <wendyreid> sheila: I wonder if there is a world where we can find someone to help guide someone to find the solution for this
14:41:10 <wendyreid> tzviya: I had envisioned this, especially for certain crimes
14:41:26 <wendyreid> ... it can be unclear where the point going to law enforcement is needed
14:41:45 <wendyreid> ... mediators and other roles can be trained to know when reporting needs to occur
14:42:11 <wendyreid> ... someone serving as a victims advocate or directing to one
14:42:28 <wendyreid> ... international, it can be more difficult and can be traumatic
14:42:47 <wendyreid> ... asking someone to help you can help, but should be able to provide advice and guidance
14:42:54 <wendyreid> ... and there's some cases when reporting is mandatory
14:43:27 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: As part of ombuds training, include something like knowing when law enforcement is required
14:43:49 <wendyreid> tzviya: I don't think we can have mediators be exclusively chairs
14:43:58 <wendyreid> ... One of the things we could attempt to determine
14:44:10 <wendyreid> ... if the role of ombud and mediator should be distinct roles
14:44:19 <wendyreid> ... are we intentionally merging them
14:44:24 <wendyreid> ... what does the training look like
14:44:34 <wendyreid> ... are we offering more training to alternate roles
14:44:34 <tzviya> ack me
14:44:45 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: We had some of this discussion, we are leaning towards separate
14:44:53 <wendyreid> ... we'd need to make more revisions and adjust the budget
14:45:18 <wendyreid> ... other thought, looking at all of these roles as a total package in a budget proposal
14:45:32 <wendyreid> Ralph: Liz convinced me that the roles should be separate
14:46:11 <wendyreid> ... in our multinational organization, illegal acts can happen in person and virtually
14:46:41 <wendyreid> ... in our international meetings, it's really important we provide information to the non-locals on what the appropriate resources are
14:46:57 <tzviya> ack ra
14:47:01 <wendyreid> ... their expectations of LE in the place of the meeting may not be the same as their home
14:47:13 <wendyreid> ... one of our requirements for hosted meetings, ombuds are present
14:47:23 <wendyreid> ... and know what the local resources are and how best to advise on them
14:47:45 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: We should also remember, some of the things involved in the place may not have anything to do with W3C
14:47:55 <wendyreid> ... it would not be subject to any of our internal processes
14:48:07 <wendyreid> ... we'd still want to support them with advice or resources
14:48:43 <tzviya> q+ to ask if we should write a mediator job description
14:48:44 <sheila> q+
14:48:47 <wendyreid> ... there are a number of nuances
14:48:55 <wendyreid> Ralph: And we should be equipped to provide that advice
14:49:10 <wendyreid> ... there may be things that are unsafe to do even if they sound right
14:49:15 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask if we should write a mediator job description
14:49:24 <wendyreid> tzviya: I wonder if we should next write a mediator job description
14:49:40 <wendyreid> ... and someone to put together a mediator budget
14:49:59 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: I can take some of it, if someone could look up mediation services in the US
14:50:54 <wendyreid> sheila: I think there's a point at which, if you wish to seek legal recourse, we can connect you to a legal resource
14:51:08 <wendyreid> ... I'd be nervous about training people to directly deal with the law
14:51:29 <wendyreid> ... as Ralph said, depending on the country, race of the person, other factors, it can be very complex
14:51:37 <wendyreid> ... it's not included in the training plan
14:51:57 <wendyreid> ... we figure out internally within the W3C how to deal with those instead of leaving for the ombuds
14:52:02 <tzviya> ack sheila
14:52:35 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: I think most people as members would be on their own, separate from W3C. I do think we need to be clear about the boundaries
14:52:52 <wendyreid> ... we need W3C to fill in the remainder for what they are willing to do
14:53:06 <wendyreid> ... I do like at events like TPAC for the ombuds to be aware of what the options are
14:53:19 <wendyreid> ... that's an appropriate level of information to provide
14:53:19 <tzviya> q+ to talk about special training for in-person events
14:53:25 <wendyreid> ... we need to write it out
14:53:39 <wendyreid> sheila: We also need to be clear on what the bounds are
14:53:46 <wendyreid> ... what to do if a member is assaulted or something
14:53:51 <wendyreid> ... has that been discussed
14:54:09 <wendyreid> tzviya: I'm on the queue about doing some kind of special training before events
14:54:16 <wendyreid> ... emergency services
14:54:29 <wendyreid> ... in terms of what is currently done today
14:54:33 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about special training for in-person events
14:54:39 <wendyreid> ... current ombuds, there is little formal information
14:55:05 <wendyreid> ... we formed a rapid response, but all that is local emergency services and an email
14:55:12 <wendyreid> Ralph: In truth, I'm not aware of anything
14:57:30 <wendyreid> tzviya: We have a lot of work to do
14:57:43 <wendyreid> LizLutgendorff_: Immediate actions to write the descriptions and revise the budget
14:57:54 <wendyreid> ... reconvene when we have that and some place specifics figured out
14:58:06 <wendyreid> tzviya: Can we discuss the month of april
14:58:51 <wendyreid> ... the meeting on 26th overlaps with the AC meeting
14:59:01 <wendyreid> ... we'd not be meeting at all this month
14:59:09 <wendyreid> ... we could schedule something on the 19th
14:59:51 <wendyreid> wendyreid: We have tasks, we could work on our tasks and reconvene
14:59:57 <wendyreid> tzviya: Ok, next meeting in May
15:00:04 <wendyreid> ... we can all keep in touch!
15:00:50 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
15:00:50 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Liz, WendyReid, Sheila_Moussavi, Chris_Wilson, Ralph, tzviya
15:00:52 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:00:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/29-pwe-minutes.html Zakim
15:00:56 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:01:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwe
15:15:17 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #pwe
15:15:21 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #pwe
16:21:09 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #pwe
16:21:12 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #pwe
17:12:57 <`join_subline> `join_subline has joined #pwe
17:57:20 <Jem> Jem has joined #pwe