IRC log of ag on 2022-03-29
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:56:34 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/29-ag-irc
- 14:56:36 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 14:56:38 [ToddL]
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- 14:56:38 [Zakim]
- Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
- 14:56:53 [alastairc]
- agenda?
- 14:56:55 [alastairc]
- agenda+ Guideline breakdown tryout, process
- 14:57:03 [janina]
- present+
- 14:57:09 [Rachael]
- present+
- 14:57:10 [alastairc]
- agenda+ WCAG 3 Example Conformance Scenarios https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios
- 14:57:22 [alastairc]
- agenda+ WCAG 2.2 Visual Controls https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-visible-controls/
- 14:57:57 [Chuck]
- agenda?
- 14:58:13 [Chuck]
- present+
- 14:58:26 [alastairc]
- regrets: AlistairG, BruceB, LauraC
- 14:58:42 [ShawnT]
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- 14:58:47 [alastairc]
- present+
- 14:58:49 [jeanne]
- present+
- 14:58:52 [JakeAbma]
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- 14:59:07 [JakeAbma]
- present+
- 14:59:12 [ShawnT]
- Present+
- 14:59:41 [Wilco]
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- 15:00:12 [Wilco]
- scribe: Wilco
- 15:00:15 [Wilco]
- present+
- 15:00:16 [sarahhorton]
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- 15:00:18 [Wilco]
- agenda?
- 15:00:21 [Jennie]
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- 15:00:27 [Jennie]
- present+
- 15:00:45 [sarahhorton]
- present+
- 15:00:46 [JustineP]
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- 15:01:29 [JustineP]
- present+
- 15:01:54 [thbrunet]
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- 15:01:57 [Fazio]
- present+
- 15:02:22 [thbrunet]
- present+
- 15:02:23 [Wilco]
- Alastair: Anyone who wants to introduce themselves?
- 15:02:29 [GN015]
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- 15:02:54 [Wilco]
- ... Any agenda items for upcoming meetings?
- 15:03:09 [Wilco]
- ... Hearing none.
- 15:03:10 [maryjom]
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- 15:03:11 [alastairc]
- zakim, take up next item
- 15:03:11 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- Guideline breakdown tryout, process -- taken up [from alastairc]
- 15:03:28 [Chuck]
- +1 to recording
- 15:03:42 [Wilco]
- Alastair: I'll be recording this section, we had a few regrets.
- 15:04:15 [Wilco]
- ... if anyone doesn't want to be on the recording, don't say anything.
- 15:04:19 [kirkwood]
- present+
- 15:04:30 [maryjom]
- present+
- 15:04:41 [jo-weismantel]
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- 15:05:03 [Wilco]
- ... This is an exercise, moving WCAG 2 to 3 migration, this enables us to structure what goes into WCAG 3.
- 15:05:30 [Wilco]
- ... To do that we reconfigure the requirements from WCAG 2. If you transport it across you transport the granularity.
- 15:05:41 [Wilco]
- ... Some criteria are bigger / more complicated than others.
- 15:05:53 [Wilco]
- ... To reconfigure that we need to break things down.
- 15:06:24 [Wilco]
- ... Thinking through how this breakdown works is useful for our progress of WCAG 3.
- 15:06:54 [Wilco]
- ... We ran a pilot a few weeks ago. The most successful one was to apply categorizations to existing criteria.
- 15:07:29 [Wilco]
- ... Also to think about the units of testing. Component, view, process, site.
- 15:07:52 [Wilco]
- ... And then there is types of test, objective tests. Does it have alt text or not.
- 15:08:00 [Wilco]
- ... Conditions, test cases, and protocols.
- 15:08:25 [Wilco]
- ... What we tried to do is create smaller units. We're not trying to fill in gaps.
- 15:08:31 [mbgower]
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- 15:08:33 [mbgower]
- present+
- 15:08:43 [Wilco]
- ... It's easy to add extra requirements, but that's not what we're aiming to do.
- 15:08:58 [Wilco]
- ... Non-text content can be divided. Functional needs were fairly straight-forward.
- 15:09:05 [Wilco]
- ... How you test it is a little more complicated.
- 15:09:29 [Wilco]
- ... yes / no does it have alt text. Then, does it have appropriate meaning.
- 15:09:44 [Wilco]
- ... Complex materials might be better at the view level.
- 15:10:16 [Wilco]
- ... We noted down functional needs from the subgroup work.
- 15:10:49 [Wilco]
- ... This is all listing what we think the success criteria does now.
- 15:11:27 [Wilco]
- ... Funtional needs was a subset of the original ones.
- 15:12:42 [Wilco]
- ... How this works varies depending on the success criteria.
- 15:13:00 [Wilco]
- ... Audio-only / video-only are quite similar in terms of test type, but the functional needs vary a lot.
- 15:14:14 [Wilco]
- ... The exercise today, we'll split into groups of 4. Everyone can open the functional needs link.
- 15:14:14 [Jaunita_George]
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- 15:14:22 [Jaunita_George]
- Present+
- 15:14:53 [Wilco]
- ... Pick the criterion, add the categories, see how the success criteria can be divided up. Does it make sense to divide by types of test, by functional needs, user needs.
- 15:15:02 [Wilco]
- ... Try to create the smallest useful unit of test.
- 15:15:04 [mbgower]
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- 15:15:14 [alastairc]
- Functional / user needs https://docs.google.com/document/d/16ZeCqTRTY0lmWvp1Xv_wO0iH1OzyECBa1UXQ_UeocjQ/edit#heading=h.4jiwp8jpc143
- 15:15:14 [ShawnT]
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- 15:15:22 [sarahhorton]
- q+
- 15:15:23 [alastairc]
- Mapping https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MGGgqgeL779aJu7iNuXQMHgJygV7l6GouM7--5ABJ5U/edit#heading=h.9oxnj9cw11i8
- 15:15:27 [AWK]
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- 15:15:34 [AWK]
- +AWK
- 15:15:40 [ShawnT]
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- 15:15:51 [alastairc]
- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tXIaJxQCyuOTkvLcJR5QgTN13h6dIgtUlE7H9CUCvew/edit#gid=0
- 15:15:51 [Wilco]
- Alastair: Make a copy of the document, this is the bit we'll fill in.
- 15:16:06 [Wilco]
- ... This is where you can pick the success criterion to tackle.
- 15:16:14 [alastairc]
- Example of one done already: https://docs.google.com/document/d/10Fdy-o7DKfWwzxk1AJbAGGedtE4VeJ_f6tNV_4Og7WU/edit
- 15:16:31 [MelanieP]
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- 15:16:36 [alastairc]
- https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1sGLpBwAAsZfhANpWO3jo0zMOdwDtckhjSmsYpisQfFU/edit#slide=id.g11f44e61c34_0_12
- 15:16:37 [MelanieP]
- present+
- 15:16:39 [mbgower]
- yep, no access
- 15:16:41 [Caryn]
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- 15:16:53 [Caryn]
- present +
- 15:17:07 [Wilco]
- Sarah: I was wondering if you thought about using severity as help in getting to the smallest unit?
- 15:17:20 [Wilco]
- ... In other projects I've done it helped to align severity with needs.
- 15:18:12 [Wilco]
- Alastair: For the moment it's together what we have from WCAG 2. We're working with "included or not".
- 15:18:26 [Wilco]
- ... When we get to recombining it we'll need to go through severity.
- 15:19:08 [Wilco]
- ... If people want to think about that through the exercise I think that'll be useful.
- 15:19:44 [Wilco]
- Rachael: I'll start the breakout rooms. If you need captioning you can come to the main room.
- 15:20:02 [Wilco]
- ... You'll get an invitation. Feel free to come back to the main room.
- 15:20:49 [sarahhorton]
- q+
- 15:20:55 [alastairc]
- ack sarahhorton
- 15:21:15 [PeterKorn]
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- 15:21:21 [Wilco]
- Alastair: Start a fresh document and work in there
- 15:21:44 [Wilco]
- ... We're doing a categorisation exercise.
- 15:22:23 [alastairc]
- Template to start from, but create your own copy: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MGGgqgeL779aJu7iNuXQMHgJygV7l6GouM7--5ABJ5U/edit#heading=h.9oxnj9cw11i8
- 15:26:18 [ToddL]
- present+
- 15:28:01 [Francis_Storr]
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- 15:29:52 [KimD]
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- 15:32:13 [shawn9]
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- 15:47:27 [shadi]
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- 15:47:38 [shadi]
- present+
- 15:47:45 [Rachael]
- https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1sGLpBwAAsZfhANpWO3jo0zMOdwDtckhjSmsYpisQfFU/edit#slide=id.p
- 15:47:52 [jeanne]
- present+
- 15:49:12 [Rachael]
- We will wrap up in 1-2 minutes to come back and regroup
- 15:53:06 [Wilco]
- Alastair: I had a useful session with my group looking at focus order.
- 15:53:30 [Wilco]
- ... We got through needs and types, got started into breaking it down into probably two requirements.
- 15:53:33 [Chuck]
- q+
- 15:53:40 [mbgower]
- q+
- 15:53:53 [Wilco]
- ... Anything people found particularly easy or difficult?
- 15:53:53 [alastairc]
- ack Chuck
- 15:54:25 [Wilco]
- Chuck: We selected pointer cancellation, we came across sub-guidelines. In this case it was one of the following. To us it felt like these could not be broken up.
- 15:54:28 [PeterKorn]
- q+
- 15:54:46 [alastairc]
- ack PeterKorn
- 15:55:16 [Wilco]
- Peter: When we looked at test types, one was clearly automatable, the others maybe not, even if they were objective.
- 15:55:33 [Wilco]
- ... We wanted to make them sub-guidelines but didn't think it was possible.
- 15:55:50 [Wilco]
- ... We noted different facets of cognitive related to some but not all of the four.
- 15:55:55 [Wilco]
- ... We though the exercise was interesting.
- 15:56:07 [Fazio]
- +1 Peter
- 15:56:23 [alastairc]
- ack mbgower
- 15:56:24 [Wilco]
- Alastair: We came across a couple that we thought could not be broken down. Still helpful to get them at the same level of granularity.
- 15:56:34 [Fazio]
- q+
- 15:56:53 [Wilco]
- Mike: We worked on 1.3.3, we spent the entire time on functional and user needs.
- 15:57:09 [Wilco]
- ... I suspect part of that is because we're not super familiar with the newer needs.
- 15:57:30 [Wilco]
- ... Since this is about instructions it hit on a lot of things. We ended up discussing what it did and did not cover from a COGA perspective.
- 15:57:41 [MichaelC]
- q+
- 15:58:07 [alastairc]
- ack Fazio
- 15:58:09 [Wilco]
- Alastair: Our pilot was three 2-hour sessions. We got through one SC every half hour or so.
- 15:58:12 [alastairc]
- q+
- 15:58:15 [Regina]
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- 15:58:34 [Wilco]
- Fazio: It might be a good idea to reference design notes like Content usable. It helps testers figure out how to achieve user needs.
- 15:58:40 [alastairc]
- ack MichaelC
- 15:58:41 [mbgower]
- Group 1 was Gundula, Janina, Jaunita and Mike (covered 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics)
- 15:59:17 [Wilco]
- MichaelC: In part the SC target AT users, regardless of why they are AT users. It seems false to map them to functional needs.
- 15:59:29 [alastairc]
- q?
- 15:59:35 [Wilco]
- ... In this case there were needs beyond users. But guidelines created for AT continues to be a question
- 15:59:56 [Wilco]
- Alastair: What we found so far, some guidelines break down nicely along functional needs and can potentially be separated.
- 16:00:10 [Wilco]
- ... Some guidelines cover so many functional needs, but break down along user needs.
- 16:00:20 [Wilco]
- ... Others break down better as test type or component type.
- 16:00:32 [Wilco]
- ... There is no one good way to do this.
- 16:01:18 [Wilco]
- Rachael: If you have a document, move it to a shared folder.
- 16:01:21 [Francis_Storr]
- present+
- 16:01:32 [Wilco]
- ... Next to the title, there is a star, move, then move it to the correct drive.
- 16:02:14 [Wilco]
- ... Please share it with Jeanne or me and we'll move it for you.
- 16:02:46 [MelanieP]
- q+ to ask what email address(es) you'd like us to use to share the doc, please
- 16:02:54 [Wilco]
- Alastair: We've been working on this database, it'll go into that and we can filter and export from there.
- 16:02:59 [alastairc]
- ack me
- 16:03:02 [MelanieP]
- q-
- 16:04:15 [alastairc]
- zakim, pick a scribe
- 16:04:15 [Zakim]
- Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ToddL
- 16:04:30 [alastairc]
- zakim, pick a scribe
- 16:04:30 [Zakim]
- Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Wilco
- 16:04:33 [alastairc]
- zakim, pick a scribe
- 16:04:33 [Zakim]
- Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Chuck
- 16:04:44 [alastairc]
- zakim, pick a scribe
- 16:04:44 [Zakim]
- Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Fazio
- 16:05:05 [alastairc]
- zakim, pick a scribe
- 16:05:05 [Zakim]
- Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ShawnT
- 16:05:23 [alastairc]
- zakim, pick a scribe
- 16:05:23 [Zakim]
- Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose sarahhorton
- 16:05:46 [alastairc]
- zakim, take up item
- 16:05:46 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'take up item', alastairc
- 16:05:49 [sarahhorton]
- scribe: sarahhorton
- 16:05:50 [alastairc]
- zakim, take up next item
- 16:05:50 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- WCAG 3 Example Conformance Scenarios https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios -- taken up [from alastairc]
- 16:06:14 [sarahhorton]
- alastairc: Shared scenarios, shared before meeting, Janina to present
- 16:07:10 [sarahhorton]
- Janina: assuming everyone in scenarios operating in best of faith
- 16:07:10 [alastairc]
- s/Shared scenarios/Conformance Scenarios
- 16:07:53 [shadi]
- https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1VrEl43FAqLBQc2IsQCCBuxtDhb5p1Ccc/
- 16:07:55 [sarahhorton]
- ... talking about part, not all, come to conclusions, interested in feedback but haven't spent time on details, go easy on details, focus on organization
- 16:08:56 [sarahhorton]
- shadi: Collection of scenarios, content authors have challenges conforming with WCAG, develop shared understanding of situations
- 16:09:14 [sarahhorton]
- ... discussions across groups, scenarios help understand what we mean
- 16:09:29 [sarahhorton]
- ... buckets, not proposing solutions
- 16:10:08 [sarahhorton]
- ... [reads from slides]
- 16:10:27 [sarahhorton]
- ... not everything has to be in WCAG
- 16:10:46 [sarahhorton]
- ... some solutions policy, technical, on spectrum
- 16:10:53 [Jen_G]
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- 16:10:58 [Jen_G]
- Present+
- 16:11:11 [Jen_G]
- Present+
- 16:11:53 [sarahhorton]
- ... release early, often, looking at first draft, some doesn't have full consensus, looking for feedback, it this useful, should we keep at it
- 16:12:03 [sarahhorton]
- ... all comments welcome
- 16:13:17 [sarahhorton]
- ... bugs occur in content — where there's software, there are bugs
- 16:13:43 [Fazio]
- This is where the Maturity Model we're developing will be applicable/useful
- 16:14:00 [sarahhorton]
- ... large content accumulating rapidly, e.g., user generated content, reviews, videos, etc
- 16:14:26 [sarahhorton]
- ... auto-generated content, weather pictures, etc
- 16:14:53 [sarahhorton]
- ... large volumes of content not able to conform immediately
- 16:15:02 [Jaunita_George_]
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- 16:15:05 [Jaunita_George_]
- Present+
- 16:15:32 [sarahhorton]
- ... takes time to adjust content after acquisition, [reads slides]
- 16:16:19 [sarahhorton]
- ... many examples that require human intervention, not publish until accessible or take other steps?
- 16:17:24 [sarahhorton]
- ... Content provider doesn't control content, website that allows users to create websites, technical requirements for CMS, tool producer might not be responsible for sites created
- 16:18:16 [sarahhorton]
- ... aggregating portal, syndicated, different relationships between content and provider
- 16:18:43 [sarahhorton]
- ... content provider, e.g., payment service, can select service but have dependency
- 16:19:12 [sarahhorton]
- ... social media embedding, content management used by website and dependent on CMS
- 16:19:58 [sarahhorton]
- ... live content, e.g., reduced caption quality for live, might have higher bar for prerecorded
- 16:20:00 [mbgower]
- q+ to say that a lot of this seems to be already in the ATAG material. The content aggregator is a new consideration to address. I don't think authors should be excepted from responsibility for choosing an inaccessible service feature
- 16:20:32 [sarahhorton]
- ... some types of content difficult to conform, e.g., immersive environments, sensory experiences, lack of AT support
- 16:20:57 [AWK]
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- 16:21:21 [sarahhorton]
- ... content rarely used, aspects in WCAG 2x, outdated/archived content, useful to go back, e.g., ancient weather forecast?
- 16:21:43 [sarahhorton]
- ... things put online but not known if going to be used, same priority?
- 16:22:31 [sarahhorton]
- ... experimental for all users, included people with disabilities, e.g., some feature, robot, drone, figure out as we go along
- 16:22:55 [sarahhorton]
- ... things known beta, could break, not excuse but what is reasonable effort
- 16:23:33 [sarahhorton]
- ... not all requirements applicable to all content, limited group of users, known set of user tech, WCAG 2x accessibility supported, can we build on that?
- 16:24:11 [sarahhorton]
- ... small business have limited expertise, for many factors including accessibility
- 16:24:24 [sarahhorton]
- ... limited resources, too, might be policy
- 16:25:01 [sarahhorton]
- ... get in touch, link in agenda, Silver Conformance Options Subgroup, Janina and Jeanne leading, Shadi lead editor
- 16:25:13 [sarahhorton]
- ... contact to get involved or provide feedback
- 16:25:16 [alastairc]
- ack mbgower
- 16:25:16 [Zakim]
- mbgower, you wanted to say that a lot of this seems to be already in the ATAG material. The content aggregator is a new consideration to address. I don't think authors should be
- 16:25:19 [Zakim]
- ... excepted from responsibility for choosing an inaccessible service feature
- 16:26:12 [sarahhorton]
- mbgower: Question whether a lot should in WCAG, enforcement, applicability for those that adopt WCAG, doing pretty well, jurisdictions decide
- 16:26:46 [sarahhorton]
- ... covered by ATAG, separate spec, how much bringing in?
- 16:27:00 [sarahhorton]
- ... content aggregator new considerations, good to consider
- 16:27:30 [alastairc]
- q+ to ask / suggest that we need to be aware of these considerations, but not necessarily build into WCAG 3.
- 16:27:56 [sarahhorton]
- ... exceptions, can create problems, old stuff mark as not going to make accessible, similar outcome, user understands company is not going to make accessible, otherwise don't need to list
- 16:28:16 [sarahhorton]
- ... like transparency that company needs to report
- 16:28:35 [sarahhorton]
- shadi: Policy consideration? Maybe, but maybe can do better
- 16:29:14 [sarahhorton]
- ... SC 1.1.1 broken down, identify images you put online, provide more descriptions, put requirements on 2 levels to address separately\
- 16:29:18 [Wilco]
- q+
- 16:29:30 [sarahhorton]
- ... outlining scenarios that content authors experience
- 16:29:42 [sarahhorton]
- ... to be worked out, not making proposal for how to work with it
- 16:29:44 [mbgower]
- thanks for the presentation. it's a really interesting space to discuss
- 16:30:17 [sarahhorton]
- ... unclear whether ATAG is included in WCAG 3
- 16:31:02 [alastairc]
- ack me
- 16:31:02 [Zakim]
- alastairc, you wanted to ask / suggest that we need to be aware of these considerations, but not necessarily build into WCAG 3.
- 16:31:03 [sarahhorton]
- ... not proposing exceptions, possible ways forward, outline things to be discussed, situations
- 16:31:23 [alastairc]
- ack Wilco
- 16:31:24 [sarahhorton]
- alastairc: Need to be aware of considerations, not building in, not making blanket exceptions
- 16:32:04 [PeterKorn]
- q+
- 16:32:09 [sarahhorton]
- Wilco: Leave up to policy makers, will exempt generally, potentially to provide more informed ways to deal with it
- 16:32:15 [shadi]
- +1 to Wilco
- 16:32:25 [sarahhorton]
- ... need to give policy makers tools to ask questions
- 16:32:38 [Jaunita_George_]
- +1 to wilco
- 16:32:41 [maryjom]
- q+
- 16:32:44 [alastairc]
- ack PeterKorn
- 16:32:48 [sarahhorton]
- shadi: Can we do better than blanket exceptions, e.g., maps
- 16:32:52 [kirkwood]
- q+
- 16:33:13 [sarahhorton]
- PeterKorn: Policy makers don't think about how to navigate these situations more intelligently
- 16:33:35 [sarahhorton]
- ... e.g., everything needs to conform, what about bugs, what about user generated?
- 16:33:45 [alastairc]
- Next step if you have feedback: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance
- 16:33:49 [sarahhorton]
- ... as we write guidelines, etc, address where bext
- 16:33:57 [sarahhorton]
- s/bext/best
- 16:34:13 [sarahhorton]
- alastairc: Provide feedback to work
- 16:34:14 [alastairc]
- ack maryjom
- 16:34:47 [alastairc]
- ack kirkwood
- 16:34:49 [sarahhorton]
- maryjom: Policy-makers don't understand topic, some countries remove products when not 100% conformant
- 16:34:55 [sarahhorton]
- ... has difficulties
- 16:35:02 [shadi]
- [[please feel free to use the "Discussions" tab to add your feedback too]]
- 16:35:24 [alastairc]
- zakim, close the q
- 16:35:24 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'close the q', alastairc
- 16:35:45 [sarahhorton]
- kirkwood: Fantastic, aspect of undue burden, legal reasons, business reasons should be addressed more, measurement of undue burden
- 16:36:35 [sarahhorton]
- ... has to be core to this, W3C showing it can be done to standards, transforming internet to decrease burden, esp for technical, legal documents, scaling for small businesses
- 16:36:40 [alastairc]
- zakim, take up next item
- 16:36:40 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 -- WCAG 2.2 Visual Controls https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-visible-controls/ -- taken up [from alastairc]
- 16:37:02 [sarahhorton]
- shadi: Survey? What's process to get more feedback
- 16:37:30 [sarahhorton]
- Janina: Take offline, talk to chairs
- 16:37:41 [alastairc]
- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-visible-controls/results
- 16:38:17 [alastairc]
- https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1895#issuecomment-1051108085
- 16:38:25 [alastairc]
- https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2238
- 16:38:40 [sarahhorton]
- alastairc: 7 agree, 1 agree with adjust, few comments
- 16:39:02 [sarahhorton]
- ... Wilco comment about brackets addressed in PR
- 16:39:10 [sarahhorton]
- ... last call?
- 16:39:43 [alastairc]
- Draft RESOLUTION: Accept response and PR
- 16:39:49 [sarahhorton]
- RESOLUTION: Accept response and PR
- 16:39:58 [Rachael]
- +1
- 16:40:33 [alastairc]
- TOPIC: Excluding design canvases #1888
- 16:40:48 [sarahhorton]
- mbgower: Will address Patrick's editorial comment
- 16:41:24 [sarahhorton]
- alastairc: concerns about canvas interface, lots of objects, multiple controls/layers
- 16:41:38 [alastairc]
- https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GfEgRs99CBc9vVHhCNowwj07v6UDGb-2QaB9IlfBZ5A/edit#
- 16:41:41 [sarahhorton]
- ... combined approached into suggestion
- 16:42:16 [sarahhorton]
- ... one approach takes out focus
- 16:42:17 [alastairc]
- "The trigger for hover is an editable item within a region of the page dedicated to editable items."
- 16:42:52 [sarahhorton]
- ... exception for those types of editors
- 16:43:28 [sarahhorton]
- ... if add persistent controls would overwhelm interface
- 16:43:56 [sarahhorton]
- ... [reads responses]
- 16:44:50 [sarahhorton]
- ... focus added to close loophole but if focus on hover requirement (as orig intent) makes it more narrow, excluded interactions we didn't want included
- 16:45:18 [sarahhorton]
- ... [reads responses]
- 16:46:32 [sarahhorton]
- Wilco: Don't think correct in saying it's a problem, have to have selected, doesn't matter they're hidden if not selected
- 16:46:54 [sarahhorton]
- ... interact with graphical object, have visual indicator that tells where to go for controls
- 16:47:07 [sarahhorton]
- ... doesn't apply, could have explanation in understanding document
- 16:47:27 [sarahhorton]
- alastairc: Applicability? What is indicator?
- 16:47:35 [alastairc]
- q+ to talk about applicability
- 16:48:24 [sarahhorton]
- GN015: Question about exception or focus, confusing
- 16:49:01 [sarahhorton]
- ... canvas, if and when needed, e.g., email tool, icons appear only when mail selected, same with editable object
- 16:49:05 [mbgower]
- q+ to say I think "visual indicator" is VERY difficult concept to pin down; I suspect we would not get agreement on when something fails
- 16:49:48 [sarahhorton]
- alastairc: Deleted bits (hover or focus) is one option, take away focus bit. Second is to add exception
- 16:49:49 [alastairc]
- ack me
- 16:49:49 [Zakim]
- alastairc, you wanted to talk about applicability
- 16:50:36 [sarahhorton]
- ... Editor interface, trying to make keyboard accessible so options appear on focus, if have hover or focus, when focused equivalent of selected
- 16:50:56 [alastairc]
- ack mbgower
- 16:50:56 [Zakim]
- mbgower, you wanted to say I think "visual indicator" is VERY difficult concept to pin down; I suspect we would not get agreement on when something fails
- 16:51:16 [GN015]
- q+
- 16:51:58 [sarahhorton]
- mbgower: SC at risk because of visual indicator, difficult to pin down, when is indicator or when realize operable
- 16:52:14 [sarahhorton]
- ... might be interesting exercise, see if we can agree
- 16:52:37 [sarahhorton]
- ... suspect we can't
- 16:52:47 [sarahhorton]
- alastairc: Can try running exercise
- 16:52:54 [alastairc]
- ack GN015
- 16:52:57 [alastairc]
- ack gn
- 16:53:43 [sarahhorton]
- GN015: Another aspect with dropping focus, element visible only on hover then requirement applies, what about when on hover and focus, still have elements user has to look through
- 16:53:51 [sarahhorton]
- ... e.g., tab or moving mouse
- 16:54:18 [sarahhorton]
- alastairc: Good point, providing options on both makes out of scope
- 16:54:18 [Rachael]
- q+
- 16:54:24 [alastairc]
- ack ra
- 16:54:29 [Wilco]
- +1, that's where my "substantial down grade" comment came from.
- 16:54:47 [sarahhorton]
- Rachael: Wilco's point, address in understanding document, preferred way to go
- 16:55:15 [alastairc]
- "The trigger for hover is an editable item within a region of the page dedicated to editable items."
- 16:55:16 [sarahhorton]
- alastairc: With focus aspect, does some form of it help?
- 16:56:06 [alastairc]
- https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GfEgRs99CBc9vVHhCNowwj07v6UDGb-2QaB9IlfBZ5A/edit#
- 16:57:11 [sarahhorton]
- AWK: It helps, with some of understanding language suggested, being able to say sufficient to have text next to control, challenge because not everything is editable
- 16:57:27 [sarahhorton]
- ... winds up getting complex
- 16:58:08 [sarahhorton]
- ... need to say, there's an area here with a lot of editable things, interface provides way to determine those, challenges, e.g., focus order
- 16:58:33 [sarahhorton]
- ... region exempted from this because designed as place to edit things
- 16:58:43 [sarahhorton]
- ... different from general expectation
- 16:58:58 [mbgower]
- Is the delineated canvas region itself the "visual indicator"? Is that acceptable to people?
- 16:59:18 [alastairc]
- https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cn9SvuOiu_m-phcyK5IdtipNzyoM2pkcCHbnWfcqsNc/edit#
- 16:59:46 [sarahhorton]
- alastairc: Visual thing, created examples, question whether things have visual indicator
- 17:00:11 [sarahhorton]
- ... look through document for next week, agree? Yes/No?
- 17:00:27 [sarahhorton]
- ... leave comments on each example, does it have visible indicator?
- 17:00:42 [mbgower]
- q+ to say and provide failure examples!?
- 17:00:50 [alastairc]
- ack mbgower
- 17:00:50 [Zakim]
- mbgower, you wanted to say and provide failure examples!?
- 17:00:58 [GN015]
- present+
- 17:01:01 [sarahhorton]
- mbgower: Add examples of failures
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- rssagent, make minutes
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- rrsagent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/29-ag-minutes.html alastairc
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- rrsagent, set logs public
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- chair:alastairc
- 17:02:49 [alastairc]
- rrsagent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/29-ag-minutes.html alastairc
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