14:56:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ag
14:56:34 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/29-ag-irc
14:56:36 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
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14:56:38 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
14:56:53 <alastairc> agenda?
14:56:55 <alastairc> agenda+ Guideline breakdown tryout, process
14:57:03 <janina> present+
14:57:09 <Rachael> present+
14:57:10 <alastairc> agenda+ WCAG 3 Example Conformance Scenarios https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios
14:57:22 <alastairc> agenda+ WCAG 2.2 Visual Controls https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-visible-controls/
14:57:57 <Chuck> agenda?
14:58:13 <Chuck> present+
14:58:26 <alastairc> regrets: AlistairG, BruceB, LauraC
14:58:42 <ShawnT> ShawnT has joined #ag
14:58:47 <alastairc> present+
14:58:49 <jeanne> present+
14:58:52 <JakeAbma> JakeAbma has joined #ag
14:59:07 <JakeAbma> present+
14:59:12 <ShawnT> Present+
14:59:41 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #ag
15:00:12 <Wilco> scribe: Wilco
15:00:15 <Wilco> present+
15:00:16 <sarahhorton> sarahhorton has joined #ag
15:00:18 <Wilco> agenda?
15:00:21 <Jennie> Jennie has joined #ag
15:00:27 <Jennie> present+
15:00:45 <sarahhorton> present+
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15:01:29 <JustineP> present+
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15:01:57 <Fazio> present+
15:02:22 <thbrunet> present+
15:02:23 <Wilco> Alastair: Anyone who wants to introduce themselves?
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15:02:54 <Wilco> ... Any agenda items for upcoming meetings?
15:03:09 <Wilco> ... Hearing none.
15:03:10 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #ag
15:03:11 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
15:03:11 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Guideline breakdown tryout, process -- taken up [from alastairc]
15:03:28 <Chuck> +1 to recording
15:03:42 <Wilco> Alastair: I'll be recording this section, we had a few regrets.
15:04:15 <Wilco> ... if anyone doesn't want to be on the recording, don't say anything.
15:04:19 <kirkwood> present+
15:04:30 <maryjom> present+
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15:05:03 <Wilco> ... This is an exercise, moving WCAG 2 to 3 migration, this enables us to structure what goes into WCAG 3.
15:05:30 <Wilco> ... To do that we reconfigure the requirements from WCAG 2. If you transport it across you transport the granularity.
15:05:41 <Wilco> ... Some criteria are bigger / more complicated than others.
15:05:53 <Wilco> ... To reconfigure that we need to break things down.
15:06:24 <Wilco> ... Thinking through how this breakdown works is useful for our progress of WCAG 3.
15:06:54 <Wilco> ... We ran a pilot a few weeks ago. The most successful one was to apply categorizations to existing criteria.
15:07:29 <Wilco> ... Also to think about the units of testing. Component, view, process, site.
15:07:52 <Wilco> ... And then there is types of test, objective tests. Does it have alt text or not.
15:08:00 <Wilco> ... Conditions, test cases, and protocols.
15:08:25 <Wilco> ... What we tried to do is create smaller units. We're not trying to fill in gaps.
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15:08:33 <mbgower> present+
15:08:43 <Wilco> ... It's easy to add extra requirements, but that's not what we're aiming to do.
15:08:58 <Wilco> ... Non-text content can be divided. Functional needs were fairly straight-forward.
15:09:05 <Wilco> ... How you test it is a little more complicated.
15:09:29 <Wilco> ... yes / no does it have alt text. Then, does it have appropriate meaning.
15:09:44 <Wilco> ... Complex materials might be better at the view level.
15:10:16 <Wilco> ... We noted down functional needs from the subgroup work.
15:10:49 <Wilco> ... This is all listing what we think the success criteria does now.
15:11:27 <Wilco> ... Funtional needs was a subset of the original ones.
15:12:42 <Wilco> ... How this works varies depending on the success criteria.
15:13:00 <Wilco> ... Audio-only / video-only are quite similar in terms of test type, but the functional needs vary a lot.
15:14:14 <Wilco> ... The exercise today, we'll split into groups of 4. Everyone can open the functional needs link.
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15:14:22 <Jaunita_George> Present+
15:14:53 <Wilco> ... Pick the criterion, add the categories, see how the success criteria can be divided up. Does it make sense to divide by types of test, by functional needs, user needs.
15:15:02 <Wilco> ... Try to create the smallest useful unit of test.
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15:15:14 <alastairc> Functional / user needs https://docs.google.com/document/d/16ZeCqTRTY0lmWvp1Xv_wO0iH1OzyECBa1UXQ_UeocjQ/edit#heading=h.4jiwp8jpc143
15:15:14 <ShawnT> ShawnT has joined #ag
15:15:22 <sarahhorton> q+
15:15:23 <alastairc> Mapping https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MGGgqgeL779aJu7iNuXQMHgJygV7l6GouM7--5ABJ5U/edit#heading=h.9oxnj9cw11i8
15:15:27 <AWK> AWK has joined #ag
15:15:34 <AWK> +AWK
15:15:40 <ShawnT> ShawnT has joined #ag
15:15:51 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tXIaJxQCyuOTkvLcJR5QgTN13h6dIgtUlE7H9CUCvew/edit#gid=0
15:15:51 <Wilco> Alastair: Make a copy of the document, this is the bit we'll fill in.
15:16:06 <Wilco> ... This is where you can pick the success criterion to tackle.
15:16:14 <alastairc> Example of one done already: https://docs.google.com/document/d/10Fdy-o7DKfWwzxk1AJbAGGedtE4VeJ_f6tNV_4Og7WU/edit
15:16:31 <MelanieP> MelanieP has joined #ag
15:16:36 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1sGLpBwAAsZfhANpWO3jo0zMOdwDtckhjSmsYpisQfFU/edit#slide=id.g11f44e61c34_0_12
15:16:37 <MelanieP> present+
15:16:39 <mbgower> yep, no access
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15:16:53 <Caryn> present +
15:17:07 <Wilco> Sarah: I was wondering if you thought about using severity as help in getting to the smallest unit?
15:17:20 <Wilco> ... In other projects I've done it helped to align severity with needs.
15:18:12 <Wilco> Alastair: For the moment it's together what we have from WCAG 2. We're working with "included or not".
15:18:26 <Wilco> ... When we get to recombining it we'll need to go through severity.
15:19:08 <Wilco> ... If people want to think about that through the exercise I think that'll be useful.
15:19:44 <Wilco> Rachael: I'll start the breakout rooms. If you need captioning you can come to the main room.
15:20:02 <Wilco> ... You'll get an invitation. Feel free to come back to the main room.
15:20:49 <sarahhorton> q+
15:20:55 <alastairc> ack sarahhorton
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15:21:21 <Wilco> Alastair: Start a fresh document and work in there
15:21:44 <Wilco> ... We're doing a categorisation exercise.
15:22:23 <alastairc> Template to start from, but create your own copy: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MGGgqgeL779aJu7iNuXQMHgJygV7l6GouM7--5ABJ5U/edit#heading=h.9oxnj9cw11i8
15:26:18 <ToddL> present+
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15:47:38 <shadi> present+
15:47:45 <Rachael> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1sGLpBwAAsZfhANpWO3jo0zMOdwDtckhjSmsYpisQfFU/edit#slide=id.p
15:47:52 <jeanne> present+
15:49:12 <Rachael> We will wrap up in 1-2 minutes to come back and regroup
15:53:06 <Wilco> Alastair: I had a useful session with my group looking at focus order.
15:53:30 <Wilco> ... We got through needs and types, got started into breaking it down into probably two requirements.
15:53:33 <Chuck> q+
15:53:40 <mbgower> q+
15:53:53 <Wilco> ... Anything people found particularly easy or difficult?
15:53:53 <alastairc> ack Chuck
15:54:25 <Wilco> Chuck: We selected pointer cancellation, we came across sub-guidelines. In this case it was one of the following. To us it felt like these could not be broken up.
15:54:28 <PeterKorn> q+
15:54:46 <alastairc> ack PeterKorn
15:55:16 <Wilco> Peter: When we looked at test types, one was clearly automatable, the others maybe not, even if they were objective.
15:55:33 <Wilco> ... We wanted to make them sub-guidelines but didn't think it was possible.
15:55:50 <Wilco> ... We noted different facets of cognitive related to some but not all of the four.
15:55:55 <Wilco> ... We though the exercise was interesting.
15:56:07 <Fazio> +1 Peter
15:56:23 <alastairc> ack mbgower
15:56:24 <Wilco> Alastair: We came across a couple that we thought could not be broken down. Still helpful to get them at the same level of granularity.
15:56:34 <Fazio> q+
15:56:53 <Wilco> Mike: We worked on 1.3.3, we spent the entire time on functional and user needs.
15:57:09 <Wilco> ... I suspect part of that is because we're not super familiar with the newer needs.
15:57:30 <Wilco> ... Since this is about instructions it hit on a lot of things. We ended up discussing what it did and did not cover from a COGA perspective.
15:57:41 <MichaelC> q+
15:58:07 <alastairc> ack Fazio
15:58:09 <Wilco> Alastair: Our pilot was three 2-hour sessions. We got through one SC every half hour or so.
15:58:12 <alastairc> q+
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15:58:34 <Wilco> Fazio: It might be a good idea to reference design notes like Content usable. It helps testers figure out how to achieve user needs.
15:58:40 <alastairc> ack MichaelC
15:58:41 <mbgower> Group 1 was Gundula, Janina, Jaunita and Mike (covered 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics)
15:59:17 <Wilco> MichaelC: In part the SC target AT users, regardless of why they are AT users. It seems false to map them to functional needs.
15:59:29 <alastairc> q?
15:59:35 <Wilco> ... In this case there were needs beyond users. But guidelines created for AT continues to be a question
15:59:56 <Wilco> Alastair: What we found so far, some guidelines break down nicely along functional needs and can potentially be separated.
16:00:10 <Wilco> ... Some guidelines cover so many functional needs, but break down along user needs.
16:00:20 <Wilco> ... Others break down better as test type or component type.
16:00:32 <Wilco> ... There is no one good way to do this.
16:01:18 <Wilco> Rachael: If you have a document, move it to a shared folder.
16:01:21 <Francis_Storr> present+
16:01:32 <Wilco> ... Next to the title, there is a star, move, then move it to the correct drive.
16:02:14 <Wilco> ... Please share it with Jeanne or me and we'll move it for you.
16:02:46 <MelanieP> q+ to ask what email address(es) you'd like us to use to share the doc, please
16:02:54 <Wilco> Alastair: We've been working on this database, it'll go into that and we can filter and export from there.
16:02:59 <alastairc> ack me
16:03:02 <MelanieP> q-
16:04:15 <alastairc> zakim, pick a scribe
16:04:15 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ToddL
16:04:30 <alastairc> zakim, pick a scribe
16:04:30 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Wilco
16:04:33 <alastairc> zakim, pick a scribe
16:04:33 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Chuck
16:04:44 <alastairc> zakim, pick a scribe
16:04:44 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Fazio
16:05:05 <alastairc> zakim, pick a scribe
16:05:05 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ShawnT
16:05:23 <alastairc> zakim, pick a scribe
16:05:23 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose sarahhorton
16:05:46 <alastairc> zakim, take up item
16:05:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up item', alastairc
16:05:49 <sarahhorton> scribe: sarahhorton
16:05:50 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
16:05:50 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- WCAG 3 Example Conformance Scenarios https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:06:14 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Shared scenarios, shared before meeting, Janina to present
16:07:10 <sarahhorton> Janina: assuming everyone in scenarios operating in best of faith
16:07:10 <alastairc> s/Shared scenarios/Conformance Scenarios
16:07:53 <shadi> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1VrEl43FAqLBQc2IsQCCBuxtDhb5p1Ccc/
16:07:55 <sarahhorton> ... talking about part, not all, come to conclusions, interested in feedback but haven't spent time on details, go easy on details, focus on organization
16:08:56 <sarahhorton> shadi: Collection of scenarios, content authors have challenges conforming with WCAG, develop shared understanding of situations
16:09:14 <sarahhorton> ... discussions across groups, scenarios help understand what we mean
16:09:29 <sarahhorton> ... buckets, not proposing solutions
16:10:08 <sarahhorton> ... [reads from slides]
16:10:27 <sarahhorton> ... not everything has to be in WCAG
16:10:46 <sarahhorton> ... some solutions policy, technical, on spectrum
16:10:53 <Jen_G> Jen_G has joined #ag
16:10:58 <Jen_G> Present+
16:11:11 <Jen_G> Present+
16:11:53 <sarahhorton> ... release early, often, looking at first draft, some doesn't have full consensus, looking for feedback, it this useful, should we keep at it
16:12:03 <sarahhorton> ... all comments welcome
16:13:17 <sarahhorton> ... bugs occur in content — where there's software, there are bugs
16:13:43 <Fazio> This is where the Maturity Model we're developing will be applicable/useful
16:14:00 <sarahhorton> ... large content accumulating rapidly, e.g., user generated content, reviews, videos, etc
16:14:26 <sarahhorton> ... auto-generated content, weather pictures, etc
16:14:53 <sarahhorton> ... large volumes of content not able to conform immediately
16:15:02 <Jaunita_George_> Jaunita_George_ has joined #ag
16:15:05 <Jaunita_George_> Present+
16:15:32 <sarahhorton> ... takes time to adjust content after acquisition, [reads slides]
16:16:19 <sarahhorton> ... many examples that require human intervention, not publish until accessible or take other steps?
16:17:24 <sarahhorton> ... Content provider doesn't control content, website that allows users to create websites, technical requirements for CMS, tool producer might not be responsible for sites created
16:18:16 <sarahhorton> ... aggregating portal, syndicated, different relationships between content and provider
16:18:43 <sarahhorton> ... content provider, e.g., payment service, can select service but have dependency
16:19:12 <sarahhorton> ... social media embedding, content management used by website and dependent on CMS
16:19:58 <sarahhorton> ... live content, e.g., reduced caption quality for live, might have higher bar for prerecorded
16:20:00 <mbgower> q+ to say that a lot of this seems to be already in the ATAG material. The content aggregator is a new consideration to address. I don't think authors should be excepted from responsibility for choosing an inaccessible service feature
16:20:32 <sarahhorton> ... some types of content difficult to conform, e.g., immersive environments, sensory experiences, lack of AT support
16:20:57 <AWK> AWK has joined #ag
16:21:21 <sarahhorton> ... content rarely used, aspects in WCAG 2x, outdated/archived content, useful to go back, e.g., ancient weather forecast?
16:21:43 <sarahhorton> ... things put online but not known if going to be used, same priority?
16:22:31 <sarahhorton> ... experimental for all users, included people with disabilities, e.g., some feature, robot, drone, figure out as we go along
16:22:55 <sarahhorton> ... things known beta, could break, not excuse but what is reasonable effort
16:23:33 <sarahhorton> ... not all requirements applicable to all content, limited group of users, known set of user tech, WCAG 2x accessibility supported, can we build on that?
16:24:11 <sarahhorton> ... small business have limited expertise, for many factors including accessibility
16:24:24 <sarahhorton> ... limited resources, too, might be policy
16:25:01 <sarahhorton> ... get in touch, link in agenda, Silver Conformance Options Subgroup, Janina and Jeanne leading, Shadi lead editor
16:25:13 <sarahhorton> ... contact to get involved or provide feedback
16:25:16 <alastairc>  ack mbgower
16:25:16 <Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say that a lot of this seems to be already in the ATAG material. The content aggregator is a new consideration to address. I don't think authors should be
16:25:19 <Zakim> ... excepted from responsibility for choosing an inaccessible service feature
16:26:12 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Question whether a lot should in WCAG, enforcement, applicability for those that adopt WCAG, doing pretty well, jurisdictions decide
16:26:46 <sarahhorton> ... covered by ATAG, separate spec, how much bringing in?
16:27:00 <sarahhorton> ... content aggregator new considerations, good to consider
16:27:30 <alastairc> q+ to ask / suggest that we need to be aware of these considerations, but not necessarily build into WCAG 3.
16:27:56 <sarahhorton> ... exceptions, can create problems, old stuff mark as not going to make accessible, similar outcome, user understands company is not going to make accessible, otherwise don't need to list
16:28:16 <sarahhorton> ... like transparency that company needs to report
16:28:35 <sarahhorton> shadi: Policy consideration? Maybe, but maybe can do better
16:29:14 <sarahhorton> ... SC 1.1.1 broken down, identify images you put online, provide more descriptions, put requirements on 2 levels to address separately\
16:29:18 <Wilco> q+
16:29:30 <sarahhorton> ... outlining scenarios that content authors experience
16:29:42 <sarahhorton> ... to be worked out, not making proposal for how to work with it
16:29:44 <mbgower> thanks for the presentation. it's a really interesting space to discuss
16:30:17 <sarahhorton> ... unclear whether ATAG is included in WCAG 3
16:31:02 <alastairc> ack me
16:31:02 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to ask / suggest that we need to be aware of these considerations, but not necessarily build into WCAG 3.
16:31:03 <sarahhorton> ... not proposing exceptions, possible ways forward, outline things to be discussed, situations
16:31:23 <alastairc> ack Wilco
16:31:24 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Need to be aware of considerations, not building in, not making blanket exceptions
16:32:04 <PeterKorn> q+
16:32:09 <sarahhorton> Wilco: Leave up to policy makers, will exempt generally, potentially to provide more informed ways to deal with it
16:32:15 <shadi> +1 to Wilco
16:32:25 <sarahhorton> ... need to give policy makers tools to ask questions
16:32:38 <Jaunita_George_> +1 to wilco
16:32:41 <maryjom> q+
16:32:44 <alastairc> ack PeterKorn
16:32:48 <sarahhorton> shadi: Can we do better than blanket exceptions, e.g., maps
16:32:52 <kirkwood> q+
16:33:13 <sarahhorton> PeterKorn: Policy makers don't think about how to navigate these situations more intelligently
16:33:35 <sarahhorton> ... e.g., everything needs to conform, what about bugs, what about user generated?
16:33:45 <alastairc> Next step if you have feedback: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance
16:33:49 <sarahhorton> ... as we write guidelines, etc, address where bext
16:33:57 <sarahhorton> s/bext/best
16:34:13 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Provide feedback to work
16:34:14 <alastairc> ack maryjom
16:34:47 <alastairc> ack kirkwood
16:34:49 <sarahhorton> maryjom: Policy-makers don't understand topic, some countries remove products when not 100% conformant
16:34:55 <sarahhorton> ... has difficulties
16:35:02 <shadi> [[please feel free to use the "Discussions" tab to add your feedback too]]
16:35:24 <alastairc> zakim, close the q
16:35:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close the q', alastairc
16:35:45 <sarahhorton> kirkwood: Fantastic, aspect of undue burden, legal reasons, business reasons should be addressed more, measurement of undue burden
16:36:35 <sarahhorton> ... has to be core to this, W3C showing it can be done to standards, transforming internet to decrease burden, esp for technical, legal documents, scaling for small businesses
16:36:40 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
16:36:40 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- WCAG 2.2 Visual Controls https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-visible-controls/ -- taken up [from alastairc]
16:37:02 <sarahhorton> shadi: Survey? What's process to get more feedback
16:37:30 <sarahhorton> Janina: Take offline, talk to chairs
16:37:41 <alastairc> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-visible-controls/results
16:38:17 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1895#issuecomment-1051108085
16:38:25 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2238
16:38:40 <sarahhorton> alastairc: 7 agree, 1 agree with adjust, few comments
16:39:02 <sarahhorton> ... Wilco comment about brackets addressed in PR
16:39:10 <sarahhorton> ... last call?
16:39:43 <alastairc> Draft RESOLUTION: Accept response and PR
16:39:49 <sarahhorton> RESOLUTION: Accept response and PR
16:39:58 <Rachael> +1
16:40:33 <alastairc> TOPIC: Excluding design canvases #1888
16:40:48 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Will address Patrick's editorial comment
16:41:24 <sarahhorton> alastairc: concerns about canvas interface, lots of objects, multiple controls/layers
16:41:38 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GfEgRs99CBc9vVHhCNowwj07v6UDGb-2QaB9IlfBZ5A/edit#
16:41:41 <sarahhorton> ... combined approached into suggestion
16:42:16 <sarahhorton> ... one approach takes out focus
16:42:17 <alastairc> "The trigger for hover is an editable item within a region of the page dedicated to editable items."
16:42:52 <sarahhorton> ... exception for those types of editors
16:43:28 <sarahhorton> ... if add persistent controls would overwhelm interface
16:43:56 <sarahhorton> ... [reads responses]
16:44:50 <sarahhorton> ... focus added to close loophole but if focus on hover requirement (as orig intent) makes it more narrow, excluded interactions we didn't want included
16:45:18 <sarahhorton> ... [reads responses]
16:46:32 <sarahhorton> Wilco: Don't think correct in saying it's a problem, have to have selected, doesn't matter they're hidden if not selected
16:46:54 <sarahhorton> ... interact with graphical object, have visual indicator that tells where to go for controls
16:47:07 <sarahhorton> ... doesn't apply, could have explanation in understanding document
16:47:27 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Applicability? What is indicator?
16:47:35 <alastairc> q+ to talk about applicability
16:48:24 <sarahhorton> GN015: Question about exception or focus, confusing
16:49:01 <sarahhorton> ... canvas, if and when needed, e.g., email tool, icons appear only when mail selected, same with editable object
16:49:05 <mbgower> q+ to say I think "visual indicator" is VERY difficult concept to pin down; I suspect we would not get agreement on when something fails
16:49:48 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Deleted bits (hover or focus) is one option, take away focus bit. Second is to add exception
16:49:49 <alastairc> ack me
16:49:49 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to talk about applicability
16:50:36 <sarahhorton> ... Editor interface, trying to make keyboard accessible so options appear on focus, if have hover or focus, when focused equivalent of selected
16:50:56 <alastairc> ack mbgower
16:50:56 <Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say I think "visual indicator" is VERY difficult concept to pin down; I suspect we would not get agreement on when something fails
16:51:16 <GN015> q+
16:51:58 <sarahhorton> mbgower: SC at risk because of visual indicator, difficult to pin down, when is indicator or when realize operable
16:52:14 <sarahhorton> ... might be interesting exercise, see if we can agree
16:52:37 <sarahhorton> ... suspect we can't
16:52:47 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Can try running exercise
16:52:54 <alastairc> ack GN015
16:52:57 <alastairc> ack gn
16:53:43 <sarahhorton> GN015: Another aspect with dropping focus, element visible only on hover then requirement applies, what about when on hover and focus, still have elements user has to look through
16:53:51 <sarahhorton> ... e.g., tab or moving mouse
16:54:18 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Good point, providing options on both makes out of scope
16:54:18 <Rachael> q+
16:54:24 <alastairc> ack ra
16:54:29 <Wilco> +1, that's where my "substantial down grade" comment came from.
16:54:47 <sarahhorton> Rachael: Wilco's point, address in understanding document, preferred way to go
16:55:15 <alastairc> "The trigger for hover is an editable item within a region of the page dedicated to editable items."
16:55:16 <sarahhorton> alastairc: With focus aspect, does some form of it help?
16:56:06 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GfEgRs99CBc9vVHhCNowwj07v6UDGb-2QaB9IlfBZ5A/edit#
16:57:11 <sarahhorton> AWK: It helps, with some of understanding language suggested, being able to say sufficient to have text next to control, challenge because not everything is editable
16:57:27 <sarahhorton> ... winds up getting complex
16:58:08 <sarahhorton> ... need to say, there's an area here with a lot of editable things, interface provides way to determine those, challenges, e.g., focus order
16:58:33 <sarahhorton> ... region exempted from this because designed as place to edit things
16:58:43 <sarahhorton> ... different from general expectation
16:58:58 <mbgower> Is the delineated canvas region itself the "visual indicator"? Is that acceptable to people?
16:59:18 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cn9SvuOiu_m-phcyK5IdtipNzyoM2pkcCHbnWfcqsNc/edit#
16:59:46 <sarahhorton> alastairc: Visual thing, created examples, question whether things have visual indicator
17:00:11 <sarahhorton> ... look through document for next week, agree? Yes/No?
17:00:27 <sarahhorton> ... leave comments on each example, does it have visible indicator?
17:00:42 <mbgower> q+ to say and provide failure examples!?
17:00:50 <alastairc> ack mbgower
17:00:50 <Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say and provide failure examples!?
17:00:58 <GN015> present+
17:01:01 <sarahhorton> mbgower: Add examples of failures
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17:01:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/29-ag-minutes.html alastairc
17:02:33 <alastairc> rrsagent, set logs public
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17:02:49 <alastairc> rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/29-ag-minutes.html alastairc
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