IRC log of ixml on 2022-03-22
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/22-ixml-irc
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- RRSAgent, make logs public
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- Meeting: ixml Group Teleconference
- 15:23:35 [Steven]
- Date: 22 March 2022
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- Chair: Steven
- 15:24:25 [Steven]
- Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2022Mar/0072
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- Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/03/15-ixml-minutes
- 15:24:58 [Steven]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:24:58 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/22-ixml-minutes.html Steven
- 15:26:02 [john]
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- 15:28:29 [Steven]
- Present: John, Steven
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- Present+Norm
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- Present+Bethan
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- 15:30:53 [Steven]
- Present+Tomos
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- Present+Michael
- 15:34:03 [tovey-walsh]
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- 15:34:54 [Steven]
- Topic: Previous Actions
- 15:35:00 [norm]
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- 15:35:29 [Steven]
- Steven: I see 4, but there were another 4, and I have done all 8 and republished the draft
- 15:35:55 [Steven]
- Michael: So all implementations are now broken
- 15:36:16 [Steven]
- Topic: Status of implementations
- 15:36:22 [Steven]
- John: All broken
- 15:37:12 [Steven]
- Topic: Status of testing and test suites
- 15:37:28 [Steven]
- Michael: also broken
- 15:37:34 [Steven]
- Norm: I submitted a bug
- 15:37:41 [Steven]
- ... there is a question to be considered.
- 15:38:15 [norm]
- https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/pull/56
- 15:38:26 [Steven]
- Steven: How the test should be classified.
- 15:39:38 [Steven]
- Michael: Dynamic errors are errors in the grammar; another analysis is that we have "not a sentence" "not a grammar" or "dynamic error"
- 15:39:45 [Steven]
- Norm: Or "Not XML"
- 15:41:05 [Steven]
- John: Like XSLT for some inputs it will cause an error, but not for others, so the stylesheet is not in error
- 15:41:11 [Steven]
- Michael: Depends
- 15:41:53 [Steven]
- Tomos: I don;t think the error is in the input.
- 15:42:24 [Steven]
- Steven: We have no conformance requirements on input.
- 15:42:42 [Steven]
- ACTION: Michael to update schema for test catalogs to add dynamic error
- 15:42:42 [trackbot]
- Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
- 15:43:05 [Steven]
- ACTION: Norm edit the pull request for #56
- 15:43:05 [trackbot]
- Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
- 15:43:35 [Steven]
- Michael: I rely on the test suite, so would like it to be up to speed as soon as possible.
- 15:44:55 [Steven]
- [General agreement to work on it]
- 15:45:14 [Steven]
- Topic: Pull request #54, partial draft of error codes for spec
- 15:45:14 [Steven]
- https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/pull/54
- 15:45:14 [Steven]
- https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/issues/44
- 15:45:34 [Steven]
- Norm: I did a few of them, to see what it would look like.
- 15:45:48 [Steven]
- ... Michael gacve it the thumbs up
- 15:45:53 [Steven]
- s/cv/v/
- 15:47:10 [Steven]
- Tomos: I saw some, but not this one
- 15:47:33 [Steven]
- Steven: I shall look this week.
- 15:48:32 [Steven]
- Tomos: Maybe we should write the spec in a different way
- 15:48:51 [Steven]
- Norm: But with a processing step that generates the errors appendix
- 15:49:14 [Steven]
- Norm: I will set up a CI tool to do the build.
- 15:51:03 [Steven]
- ACTION: John Steven Bethan Tomos to review the errors proposal
- 15:51:03 [trackbot]
- Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
- 15:52:34 [Steven]
- John: Could we have a prefix on the error numbers, not just a number?
- 15:53:20 [Steven]
- Topic: Issue #48 S=a.a.a=c;a.a.a=c;.c='x';a;a.a.
- 15:53:20 [Steven]
- https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/issues/48
- 15:53:20 [Steven]
- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2022Mar/0051.html
- 15:53:26 [norm]
- FYI: Github is bork. https://www.githubstatus.com/
- 15:53:46 [Steven]
- Michael: I agree with Steven's proposal
- 15:54:02 [Steven]
- ACTION: Steven to change the "." in names rule.
- 15:54:02 [trackbot]
- Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
- 15:55:15 [Steven]
- Topic: Issue #28 Schema for grammars
- 15:55:15 [Steven]
- https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/issues/28
- 15:55:15 [Steven]
- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2021Dec/0009.html
- 15:56:08 [Steven]
- Michael: In December I proposed that we have a schema for the grammars in XML form
- 15:56:22 [Steven]
- ... we should create and publish such a thing
- 15:56:30 [Steven]
- ... that also allows extensibility
- 15:56:53 [Steven]
- ... allow namespaced attributes
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- ... in a namespace not in ixml
- 15:57:12 [Steven]
- ... and even namespaced elements
- 15:57:25 [Steven]
- ... that may be a step too far for some.
- 15:57:50 [Steven]
- John: Namespaced attributes matches xslt, foreign declarations allowed, not sure about elements.
- 15:58:03 [Steven]
- .... Can we derive such a schema from ixml?
- 15:58:13 [Steven]
- Michael: Yes
- 15:58:44 [Steven]
- Steven: Sounds like a great topic for a paper
- 15:59:14 [Steven]
- Michael: My code provides relaxng
- 15:59:19 [Steven]
- ... still not perfect
- 15:59:40 [Steven]
- ... requires some hand editing
- 15:59:59 [Steven]
- John: Is there a tool we could make to provide a schema for the output from ixml?
- 16:00:08 [Steven]
- Michael: Yes
- 16:00:24 [Steven]
- Norm: Are we opposed to such a proposal?
- 16:00:27 [Steven]
- [No]
- 16:01:00 [Steven]
- ACTION: Michael to provide a schema for ixml in XML
- 16:01:00 [trackbot]
- Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
- 16:01:37 [Steven]
- Topic: Spec issue #26 - how is ambiguity defined?
- 16:01:37 [Steven]
- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2022Jan/0030.html
- 16:01:37 [Steven]
- https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/issues/26
- 16:01:52 [Steven]
- Norm: I started this...
- 16:02:36 [Steven]
- ... I believe I have now concluded that even if all ambiguous parses produce the same XML it is still ambiguous.
- 16:02:41 [Steven]
- Steven: Agree
- 16:03:42 [Steven]
- Michael: We could create test cases. I would like to find wording that alerts users to the possibility that different processors may return different results.
- 16:04:57 [Steven]
- Michael, for instance is "S: "a"*; "b"*. ambiguous on the empty string?
- 16:05:09 [Steven]
- s/Michael,/Michael:/
- 16:06:40 [Steven]
- Michael: I would like to make flagging of ambiguitya SHOULD rather than a MUST
- 16:07:21 [Steven]
- Tomos: I don't see the value of knowing something is ambiguous.
- 16:07:34 [Steven]
- Bethan: I can think of lots of reasons why people would care.
- 16:08:03 [Steven]
- Norm: We've agreed that it is a user option.
- 16:08:32 [Steven]
- ... this satisfies the I don't care people.
- 16:09:07 [Steven]
- ... a paragraph that calls out that ambiguity is differently spotted
- 16:10:05 [Steven]
- Tomos: If something is ambiguous we shouldn't care which parse we get
- 16:10:23 [Steven]
- Michael: No, for some it is important.
- 16:10:57 [Steven]
- ... if we've got the wording that Norm mentioned, I'm happy.
- 16:11:16 [Steven]
- ACTION: Steven observing that 'ambiguity' isn't precisely defined
- 16:11:16 [trackbot]
- Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
- 16:12:00 [Steven]
- Bethan: I think users should be able to say that they don't care about ambiguity, is different from an implementor saying that.
- 16:12:35 [Steven]
- Norm: You won't pass the test suite if you don't report ambiguity
- 16:13:24 [Steven]
- Tomos: One of the strengths of ixml is allowing ambiguous parses
- 16:13:51 [Steven]
- Michael: Still, an ambiguous parse is almost always an error in the grammar.
- 16:14:16 [Steven]
- Steven: And ambiguity slows parsing quite a lot.
- 16:14:43 [Steven]
- Topic: Issue #50 Characters or octets? both? either?
- 16:14:43 [Steven]
- https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/issues/50
- 16:15:09 [Steven]
- Norm: The current spec is unclear about the input "string".
- 16:15:32 [Steven]
- ... I would prefer not to say that the input has to be an stream of unicode.
- 16:16:06 [Steven]
- ... I would also like to parse binary files possibly.
- 16:17:14 [Steven]
- Michael: I'm nervous. My parser needs to be a sequence of unicode. I don't want to prevent binary parsing though. How gracefully can we say? Implementation defined?
- 16:17:33 [Steven]
- NNorm: Maybe use "it may be able to process binary".
- 16:17:40 [Steven]
- s/NN/N/
- 16:17:57 [Steven]
- John: Seems like a huge rabbit warrne.
- 16:18:19 [Steven]
- Tomos: Be loose about what we accept?
- 16:18:42 [Steven]
- Michael: WHich encoding?
- 16:18:48 [Steven]
- Steven: We say UTF-8
- 16:18:53 [Steven]
- s/WH/Wh/
- 16:19:08 [norm]
- The string "utf" does not appear in the 2022-02-22 spec
- 16:19:34 [Steven]
- Norm: No, there is no UTF in the spec
- 16:19:38 [Steven]
- Steven: Oh!
- 16:20:23 [Steven]
- ACTION: Steven to make it UTF-8
- 16:20:23 [trackbot]
- Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
- 16:21:36 [Steven]
- Norm: Do we do line ending normalisation? To deal with different line-ending styles?
- 16:22:22 [Steven]
- Steven: YOu can write a grammar that accepts all possible line endings, so wwe should just leave it at that.
- 16:22:29 [Steven]
- Norm: I can live with that.
- 16:22:42 [Steven]
- s/YO/Yo/
- 16:23:46 [john]
- s/warrne/warren
- 16:24:18 [Steven]
- Steven: Do we want to mention octets?
- 16:24:41 [Steven]
- Michael: The more I think about it, the more I think we should say that the input stream is implementation defined.
- 16:25:10 [Steven]
- Tomos: I think "may accept other forms" is best
- 16:26:46 [Steven]
- ACTION: Steven to add MUST accept UTF-8, MAY accept other forms.
- 16:26:46 [trackbot]
- Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
- 16:27:12 [Steven]
- Topic: AOB
- 16:27:23 [Steven]
- Steven: Next week pragmas, with an email discussion beforehand
- 16:28:25 [Steven]
- Steven: Next week back to the normal time for USA
- 16:29:00 [Steven]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:29:00 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/22-ixml-minutes.html Steven
- 16:31:07 [Steven]
- s/ambiguitya/ambiguity a
- 16:32:23 [Steven]
- s/wwe/we
- 16:32:47 [Steven]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:32:47 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/22-ixml-minutes.html Steven
- 16:41:41 [norm]
- Steven, are you planning to do the rule change for the soon-to-be published new draft?
- 16:42:16 [norm]
- (By "rule change" I mean reinstating "." to namefollowers and requiring a space following the terminating full stop)
- 16:49:05 [norm]
- I can't remember how you mention someone in IRC. Very sad. /Steven perhaps?
- 16:49:09 [norm]
- No, @Steven perhaps?
- 16:49:11 [norm]
- Sigh.
- 16:51:37 [norm]
- Cheerio.
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