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15:23:12 <Steven> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:23:19 <Steven> Meeting: ixml Group Teleconference
15:23:35 <Steven> Date:  22 March 2022
15:23:41 <Steven> Chair: Steven
15:24:25 <Steven> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2022Mar/0072
15:24:50 <Steven> Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/03/15-ixml-minutes
15:24:58 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:24:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/22-ixml-minutes.html Steven
15:26:02 <john> john has joined #ixml
15:28:29 <Steven> Present: John, Steven
15:28:53 <Steven> Present+Norm
15:30:02 <Steven> Present+Bethan
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15:30:53 <Steven> Present+Tomos
15:31:35 <Tom> Tom has joined #ixml
15:31:39 <Steven> Present+Michael
15:34:03 <tovey-walsh> tovey-walsh has joined #ixml
15:34:54 <Steven> Topic: Previous Actions
15:35:00 <norm> norm has joined #ixml
15:35:29 <Steven> Steven: I see 4, but there were another 4, and I have done all 8 and republished the draft
15:35:55 <Steven> Michael: So all implementations are now broken
15:36:16 <Steven> Topic:  Status of implementations
15:36:22 <Steven> John: All broken
15:37:12 <Steven> Topic:  Status of testing and test suites
15:37:28 <Steven> Michael: also broken
15:37:34 <Steven> Norm: I submitted a bug
15:37:41 <Steven> ... there is a question to be considered.
15:38:15 <norm> https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/pull/56
15:38:26 <Steven> Steven: How the test should be classified.
15:39:38 <Steven> Michael: Dynamic errors are errors in the grammar; another analysis is that we have "not a sentence" "not a grammar" or "dynamic error"
15:39:45 <Steven> Norm: Or "Not XML"
15:41:05 <Steven> John: Like XSLT for some inputs it will cause an error, but not for others, so the stylesheet is not in error
15:41:11 <Steven> Michael: Depends
15:41:53 <Steven> Tomos: I don;t think the error is in the input.
15:42:24 <Steven> Steven: We have no conformance requirements on input.
15:42:42 <Steven> ACTION: Michael to update schema for test catalogs to add dynamic error
15:42:42 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
15:43:05 <Steven> ACTION: Norm edit the pull request for #56
15:43:05 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
15:43:35 <Steven> Michael: I rely on the test suite, so would like it to be up to speed as soon as possible.
15:44:55 <Steven> [General agreement to work on it]
15:45:14 <Steven> Topic:  Pull request #54, partial draft of error codes for spec
15:45:14 <Steven>     https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/pull/54
15:45:14 <Steven>     https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/issues/44
15:45:34 <Steven> Norm: I did a few of them, to see what it would look like.
15:45:48 <Steven> ... Michael gacve it the thumbs up
15:45:53 <Steven> s/cv/v/
15:47:10 <Steven> Tomos: I saw some, but not this one
15:47:33 <Steven> Steven: I shall look this week.
15:48:32 <Steven> Tomos: Maybe we should write the spec in a different way
15:48:51 <Steven> Norm: But with a processing step that generates the errors appendix
15:49:14 <Steven> Norm: I will set up a CI  tool to do the build.
15:51:03 <Steven> ACTION: John Steven Bethan Tomos to review the errors proposal
15:51:03 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
15:52:34 <Steven> John: Could we have a prefix on the error numbers, not just a number?
15:53:20 <Steven> Topic:  Issue #48 S=a.a.a=c;a.a.a=c;.c='x';a;a.a.
15:53:20 <Steven>     https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/issues/48
15:53:20 <Steven>     https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2022Mar/0051.html
15:53:26 <norm> FYI: Github is bork. https://www.githubstatus.com/
15:53:46 <Steven> Michael: I agree with Steven's proposal
15:54:02 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to change the "." in names rule.
15:54:02 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
15:55:15 <Steven> Topic: Issue #28 Schema for grammars
15:55:15 <Steven>     https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/issues/28
15:55:15 <Steven>     https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2021Dec/0009.html
15:56:08 <Steven> Michael: In December I proposed that we have a schema for the grammars in XML form
15:56:22 <Steven> ... we should create and publish such a thing
15:56:30 <Steven> ... that also allows extensibility
15:56:53 <Steven> ... allow namespaced attributes
15:57:05 <Steven> ... in a namespace not in ixml
15:57:12 <Steven> ... and even namespaced elements
15:57:25 <Steven> ... that may be a step too far for some.
15:57:50 <Steven> John: Namespaced attributes matches xslt, foreign declarations allowed, not sure about elements.
15:58:03 <Steven> .... Can we derive such a schema from ixml?
15:58:13 <Steven> Michael: Yes
15:58:44 <Steven> Steven: Sounds like a great topic for a paper
15:59:14 <Steven> Michael: My code provides relaxng
15:59:19 <Steven> ... still not perfect
15:59:40 <Steven> ... requires some hand editing
15:59:59 <Steven> John: Is there a tool we could make to provide a schema for the output from ixml?
16:00:08 <Steven> Michael: Yes
16:00:24 <Steven> Norm: Are we opposed to such a proposal?
16:00:27 <Steven> [No]
16:01:00 <Steven> ACTION: Michael to provide a schema for ixml in XML
16:01:00 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
16:01:37 <Steven> Topic: Spec issue  #26 - how is ambiguity defined?
16:01:37 <Steven>     https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2022Jan/0030.html
16:01:37 <Steven>     https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/issues/26
16:01:52 <Steven> Norm: I started this...
16:02:36 <Steven> ... I believe I have now concluded that even if all ambiguous parses produce the same XML it is still ambiguous.
16:02:41 <Steven> Steven: Agree
16:03:42 <Steven> Michael: We could create test cases. I would like to find wording that alerts users to the possibility that different processors may return different results.
16:04:57 <Steven> Michael, for instance is "S: "a"*; "b"*. ambiguous on the empty string?
16:05:09 <Steven> s/Michael,/Michael:/
16:06:40 <Steven> Michael: I would like to make flagging of ambiguitya SHOULD rather than a MUST
16:07:21 <Steven> Tomos: I don't see the value of knowing something is ambiguous.
16:07:34 <Steven> Bethan: I can think of lots of reasons why people would care.
16:08:03 <Steven> Norm: We've agreed that it is a user option.
16:08:32 <Steven> ... this satisfies the I don't care people.
16:09:07 <Steven> ... a paragraph that calls out that ambiguity is differently spotted
16:10:05 <Steven> Tomos: If something is ambiguous we shouldn't care which parse we get
16:10:23 <Steven> Michael: No, for some it is important.
16:10:57 <Steven> ... if we've got the wording that Norm mentioned, I'm happy.
16:11:16 <Steven> ACTION: Steven observing that 'ambiguity' isn't precisely defined
16:11:16 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
16:12:00 <Steven> Bethan: I think users should be able to say that they don't care about ambiguity, is different from an implementor saying that.
16:12:35 <Steven> Norm: You won't pass the test suite if you don't report ambiguity
16:13:24 <Steven> Tomos: One of the strengths of ixml is allowing ambiguous parses
16:13:51 <Steven> Michael: Still, an ambiguous parse is almost always an error in the grammar.
16:14:16 <Steven> Steven: And ambiguity slows parsing quite a lot.
16:14:43 <Steven> Topic:  Issue #50 Characters or octets? both? either?
16:14:43 <Steven>     https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/issues/50
16:15:09 <Steven> Norm: The current spec is unclear about the input "string".
16:15:32 <Steven> ... I would prefer not to say that the input has to be an stream of unicode.
16:16:06 <Steven> ... I would also like to parse binary files possibly.
16:17:14 <Steven> Michael: I'm nervous. My parser needs to be a sequence of unicode. I don't want to prevent binary parsing though. How gracefully can we say? Implementation defined?
16:17:33 <Steven> NNorm: Maybe use "it may be able to process binary".
16:17:40 <Steven> s/NN/N/
16:17:57 <Steven> John: Seems like a huge rabbit warrne.
16:18:19 <Steven> Tomos: Be loose about what we accept?
16:18:42 <Steven> Michael: WHich encoding?
16:18:48 <Steven> Steven: We say UTF-8
16:18:53 <Steven> s/WH/Wh/
16:19:08 <norm> The string "utf" does not appear in the 2022-02-22 spec
16:19:34 <Steven> Norm: No, there is no UTF in the spec
16:19:38 <Steven> Steven: Oh!
16:20:23 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to make it UTF-8
16:20:23 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
16:21:36 <Steven> Norm: Do we do line ending normalisation? To deal with different line-ending styles?
16:22:22 <Steven> Steven: YOu can write a grammar that accepts all possible line endings, so wwe should just leave it at that.
16:22:29 <Steven> Norm: I can live with that.
16:22:42 <Steven> s/YO/Yo/
16:23:46 <john> s/warrne/warren
16:24:18 <Steven> Steven: Do we want to mention octets?
16:24:41 <Steven> Michael: The more I think about it, the more I think we should say that the input stream is implementation defined.
16:25:10 <Steven> Tomos: I think "may accept other forms" is best
16:26:46 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to add MUST accept UTF-8, MAY accept other forms.
16:26:46 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
16:27:12 <Steven> Topic: AOB
16:27:23 <Steven> Steven: Next week pragmas, with an email discussion beforehand
16:28:25 <Steven> Steven: Next week back to the normal time for USA
16:29:00 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:29:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/22-ixml-minutes.html Steven
16:31:07 <Steven> s/ambiguitya/ambiguity a
16:32:23 <Steven> s/wwe/we
16:32:47 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/22-ixml-minutes.html Steven
16:41:41 <norm> Steven, are you planning to do the rule change for the soon-to-be published new draft?
16:42:16 <norm> (By "rule change" I mean reinstating "." to namefollowers and requiring a space following the terminating full stop)
16:49:05 <norm> I can't remember how you mention someone in IRC. Very sad. /Steven perhaps?
16:49:09 <norm> No, @Steven perhaps?
16:49:11 <norm> Sigh.
16:51:37 <norm> Cheerio.
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