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13:43:19 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:43:19 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:43:36 <jeanne> agenda?
13:43:47 <jeanne> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:43:47 <jeanne> present:
13:43:47 <jeanne> chair: Shawn, jeanne
13:43:47 <jeanne> present+
13:43:47 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
13:43:47 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
13:43:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/18-silver-minutes.html jeanne
13:43:47 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:43:48 <jeanne> q?
13:45:41 <jeanne> agenda+ Issues related to Requirements
13:47:13 <jeanne> Scribe List -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List#Scribe_List
13:47:49 <Lauriat> Lauriat has joined #silver
13:47:57 <Lauriat> agenda?
13:48:09 <Lauriat> Present+
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13:59:52 <janina> present+
14:00:17 <shadi> present+
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14:03:59 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up item 1
14:03:59 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Issues related to Requirements -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:06:47 <Makoto> present+
14:07:03 <Rachael> present+
14:07:08 <Lauriat> https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/307
14:07:15 <shadi> scribe: shadi
14:08:36 <jeanne> Propose: Accessibility guidelines should … offer a structure of accompanying documents, that are clear and concise and allow to find technical information (methods, how-tos) quickly and in one place.
14:09:36 <shadi> SL: don't the design principles already speak to this?
14:09:54 <shadi> JS: seems to me that this has always been our goal
14:10:03 <Rachael> ...offer a structure of accompanying documents, that are clear and concise and allow *readers/end users* to find technical information (methods, how-tos) quickly and in one place.
14:10:04 <shadi> ...not necessarily easy to do that
14:10:19 <shadi> ...what does non-technical language mean?
14:10:25 <Rachael> q+
14:10:31 <shadi> ...how non-technical can we get?
14:10:44 <shadi> SL: not using overly technical terms
14:10:53 <Lauriat> ack Rachael
14:11:10 <shadi> RMB: need a noun there
14:11:17 <jeanne> q+ to say that mechanism
14:11:29 <Lauriat> q+ to propose keeping principles higher level, rather than increasingly numerous
14:11:32 <Lauriat> ack jeanne
14:11:32 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say that mechanism
14:11:43 <ToddL> ToddL has joined #silver
14:11:49 <ToddL> present+
14:12:02 <jeanne> ack jea
14:12:15 <jeanne> ack shaw
14:12:27 <shadi> SL: think this is also covered at a higher level
14:12:47 <shadi> ...design principles may be better at a high level
14:12:56 <shadi> ...not paint ourselves into a corner
14:13:02 <Rachael> +1 to addressing within current principles
14:13:03 <janina> +1 to Shawn's response approach
14:13:07 <Lauriat> ack me
14:13:07 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to propose keeping principles higher level, rather than increasingly numerous
14:13:55 <shadi> Jeanne: think #10 addresses this
14:14:44 <jeanne> #4, 5, and 10 cover this.  We  want to keep it at a high level
14:16:14 <Rachael> +1 to the easy to translate
14:16:17 <shadi> Jeanne: think the proposal is a rewrite for 5
14:16:27 <shadi> ...could add "easy to translate" part
14:16:37 <Lauriat> "Be written in plain language, as easy as possible to understand and translate."
14:17:17 <shadi> Janina: think both go together
14:17:30 <shadi> ...the more plain language, the easier to translate
14:17:34 <jeanne> #5 original: Be written in plain language, as easy as possible to understand. Note: We need a definition of plain language that includes the ease of translation. Ideally, it will be a broadly accepted definition internationally. EndNote
14:18:47 <Rachael> q+
14:19:01 <Lauriat> ack Rachael
14:19:31 <shadi> Rachael: wonder if we should refer to plainlanguage.gov?
14:19:44 <shadi> ...or another set of principles for plain language
14:20:00 <shadi> ...without saying we are going to be perfect at it
14:20:02 <Lauriat> +1 to reference instead of reinventing, if we can do that later on somehow?
14:20:05 <jeanne> proposed RESOLUTION: Change Design principle 5 to say "Be written in plain language, as easy as possible to understand and translate."
14:21:31 <shadi> Rachael: don't feel strongly
14:21:53 <shadi> ...but think the comments was trying to put principles for plain language
14:22:04 <shadi> s/comments/commenter
14:22:30 <shadi> Jeanne: there is a reference that the COGA group identified
14:23:06 <shadi> Rachael: there are several different options, I think
14:23:19 <shadi> ...difficult term for us to pick up
14:23:55 <jeanne> PLain Language Association International (PLAIN) <- https://plainlanguagenetwork.org/
14:24:12 <shadi> Shawn: maybe respond saying we are aligned on the intention but still figuring out the details?
14:24:16 <jeanne> International Plain Language Federation <- http://www.iplfederation.org/
14:24:31 <jeanne> ISO is working on a standard based around PLAIN
14:25:26 <shadi> Jeanne: go forward with the proposal?
14:25:39 <shadi> Shawn: prefer not to change if we can avoid it
14:25:50 <Makoto> +1 to Shawn
14:26:01 <jeanne>  proposed RESOLUTION: Change Design principle 5 to say "Be written in plain language, as easy as possible to understand and translate."
14:26:02 <Rachael> Could we consider "Be written to follow plain language principles, to be as easy as possible to understand and traslate" ?
14:27:39 <shadi> Jeanne: do we want to preserve what we have or change it?
14:27:46 <jeanne> Poll: Fine tune or preserve the original whenever possible?
14:28:06 <jeanne> preserve
14:28:06 <Rachael> Fine tune
14:28:09 <janina> preserve
14:28:14 <Makoto> preserve
14:28:21 <ToddL> preserve
14:28:33 <shadi> fine serve
14:29:11 <Lauriat> neither, really
14:29:58 <shadi> Rachel: think important to get the document in a good shape
14:30:18 <shadi> Shawn: think we need to work on the requirements
14:30:34 <shadi> ...so it makes sense to other people
14:31:05 <shadi> ...in this particular case, not sure if the tweak adds much
14:31:14 <shadi> ...but could complicate things
14:31:41 <shadi> Janina: could spend a lot of time polishing
14:31:51 <shadi> ...is it really needed?
14:32:09 <shadi> Shawn: see this as a confirmation of what we intended
14:32:28 <shadi> Jeanne: will take an action to respond
14:32:41 <shadi> ...say we think it is covered by 4, 5, and 10
14:33:01 <shadi> ...we think it is an affirmation of our position
14:33:11 <Lauriat> +1, sounds good (with Janina's framing)!
14:33:23 <shadi> Janina: maybe point out they may have missed it
14:33:46 <jeanne> action: Jeanne to draft a response based on the above discussion
14:34:27 <Lauriat> https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/466
14:34:40 <jeanne> Topic: 466
14:37:16 <janina> But no suggested alternative language/
14:37:34 <shadi> Shawn: really challenging comment
14:37:40 <shadi> ...completely valid
14:37:47 <jeanne> 1. Support the needs of a wide range of people with disabilities and recognize that people have individual and multiple needs.
14:37:47 <jeanne> 2. Support a measurement and conformance structure that includes guidance for a broad range of disabilities. This includes particular attention to the needs of low vision and cognitive accessibility, whose needs don't tend to fit the true/false statement success criteria of WCAG 2.x.
14:37:48 <shadi> ...could make more concise
14:38:00 <shadi> ...remove some and clean up
14:38:12 <shadi> ...but also recognize how we got here
14:38:20 <shadi> ...we started off small
14:38:31 <shadi> ...then people kept making valid suggestions
14:38:43 <shadi> ...so agree with the comment to shrink it down
14:39:03 <shadi> ...but at the same time aware of the process required
14:39:14 <Lauriat> q+ to ask about W3C principles or such that we can point to?
14:39:18 <jeanne> +1 to Janina
14:39:20 <shadi> Janina: could be a similar response to the previous
14:39:41 <jeanne> ack lau
14:39:41 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to ask about W3C principles or such that we can point to?
14:40:29 <shadi> Shawn: wonder if there are some overall W3C principles we could point to?
14:40:45 <shadi> Janina: maybe there is something in the process document
14:41:25 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/2003/Editors/
14:41:41 <shadi> https://w3c.github.io/manual-of-style/
14:41:54 <Rachael> Isn't this what we are measuring success by?
14:43:03 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/People/Bos/DesignGuide/introduction
14:43:59 <shadi> Shawn: would be good if we can refer to existing design principles
14:44:57 <shadi> ...maybe explain to the commenter that we agree in principle
14:45:04 <shadi> ...and also how we got here
14:45:24 <shadi> ...then look at simplification as we move forward
14:46:29 <Lauriat> proposed RESOLUTION: Respond with an overall acknowledgement of the benefits of simplifying the design principles, and note that we'll make our way through other potential changes and then revisit how we can simplify.
14:46:47 <jeanne> +1
14:46:54 <janina> +1
14:46:55 <Lauriat> +1
14:47:02 <Rachael> 0
14:47:08 <Makoto> +1
14:47:12 <ToddL> +1
14:48:27 <shadi> RESOLUTION: Respond with an overall acknowledgement of the benefits of simplifying the design principles, and note that we'll make our way through other potential changes and then revisit how we can simplify.
14:49:01 <shadi> [last paragraph of the comment]
14:49:11 <jeanne> Topic: Sencond Part of 466
14:49:14 <jeanne> The Requirements are also comprehensive and useful. Motivation is particularly good as a requirement – but is there a write-up of how a scoring system became the preferred way to achieve that goal? If not, it might be useful to have one to refer to as the standard moves through the draft stages. Or if the scoring system isn't seen as the only way to motivate people, maybe the reference to
14:49:14 <jeanne> it needs to be removed from this Requirement.
14:49:17 <Lauriat> Re: https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0-requirements/#motivation
14:49:31 <Lauriat> "The Guidelines motivate organizations to go beyond minimal accessibility requirements by providing a scoring system that rewards organizations which demonstrate a greater effort to improve accessibility."
14:50:10 <shadi> Shawn: agree with the comment but not sure how to change it
14:50:22 <shadi> ...talked about these things a lot already
14:50:39 <shadi> ...think the direction is sufficiently clear
14:51:58 <shadi> Jeanne: might want to find the discussion on how the scoring system ended up in there
14:52:05 <Rachael> q+ to ask since we are not sure at this point that a scoring system is the way to go do we want to reenforce this?
14:52:54 <shadi> Rachael: do we want to reinforce this at the current stage?
14:52:58 <shadi> ack rach
14:52:58 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to ask since we are not sure at this point that a scoring system is the way to go do we want to reenforce this?
14:53:09 <Rachael> The Guidelines motivate organizations to go beyond minimal accessibility requirements by rewarding organizations which demonstrate a greater effort to improve accessibility.
14:53:15 <shadi> Jeanne: we meant it in a very broad sense
14:53:30 <shadi> ...to give people an idea
14:53:52 <shadi> ...someone even thought reward meant monetarily
14:54:15 <Rachael> The Guidelines motivate organizations to go beyond minimal accessibility requirements by designing WCAG 3 to reward organizations which demonstrate a greater effort to improve accessibility.
14:54:20 <shadi> Janina: use the word "incentive"?
14:54:31 <shadi> Jeanne: may be same misunderstanding
14:54:56 <shadi> Rachael: I understand but think we may regret that word long term
14:55:09 <shadi> Jeanne: maybe "conformance structure"?
14:55:23 <shadi> Janina: or "encouraging"?
14:55:27 <ToddL> +1 to Rachael
14:56:23 <Rachael> The Guidelines motivate organizations to go beyond minimal accessibility requirements by structuring WCAG 3 to reward organizations which demonstrate a greater effort to improve accessibility.
14:58:22 <Rachael> The Guidelines motivate organizations to go beyond minimal accessibility requirements by structuring WCAG 3 to encourage organizations which demonstrate a greater effort to improve accessibility.
14:59:00 <Makoto> +1 to "structuring" and "encourage"
15:00:18 <ToddL> +1 again to Rachael
15:00:25 <ToddL> +1
15:00:26 <Lauriat> +1
15:00:28 <Makoto> +1
15:00:29 <jeanne> +1
15:01:03 <shadi> RESOLUTION: reword motivation as above
15:01:33 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/18-silver-minutes.html jeanne
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