IRC log of aria on 2022-03-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:54:14 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:54:14 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-aria-irc
17:54:16 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:54:18 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:54:19 [jamesn]
meeting: ARIA WG
17:54:23 [jamesn]
chair: JamesNurthen
17:54:30 [jamesn]
agendabot, find agenda
17:54:30 [agendabot]
jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:54:30 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/9f5d06ee-0254-462c-ba37-53bca9b8d9b1/20220310T130000
17:54:30 [agendabot]
clear agenda
17:54:30 [agendabot]
agenda+ Introductions
17:54:30 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3sYNgi1
17:54:33 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3tM4fmP
17:54:35 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:54:38 [agendabot]
agenda+ Should we meet next week? CSUN / axe-con
17:54:41 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683 -> @cookiecrook https://github.com/cookiecrook to review
17:54:44 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Should form-with-name map to IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK? https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/100 - can we close?
17:54:47 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Figure out what to do with the DPUB mappings overlap with the ARIA Core spec, in the context of newer implementation differences https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643 - publishing responded - what is next?
17:54:51 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69 - how can we move this forward?
17:54:54 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description? https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57 - any updates?
17:54:58 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Should SPACE to be allowed to activate the <a> element? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1701
17:55:52 [jamesn]
zakim, agenda order is 1,2,3,5,4
17:55:52 [Zakim]
ok, jamesn
17:55:58 [jamesn]
agenda?
17:56:20 [aaronlev]
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17:58:17 [jamesn]
regrets+ PeterKrautzberger
17:58:25 [jamesn]
regrets+ CurtBellew
17:58:32 [jamesn]
present+
17:59:50 [melsumner]
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18:00:57 [Jaunita_George]
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18:01:00 [Jaunita_George]
Present+
18:02:33 [scotto]
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18:02:33 [aaronlev]
present+
18:02:58 [aria]
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18:03:58 [scotto]
present+
18:04:43 [melsumner]
present+
18:04:47 [aria]
present+
18:05:02 [spectranaut]
present+
18:05:07 [spectranaut]
scribe: spectranaut
18:05:11 [aria]
aria has left #aria
18:05:15 [spectranaut]
zakim, next item
18:05:15 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Introductions -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:05:23 [siri]
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18:05:25 [myasonik]
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18:05:31 [myasonik]
present+
18:06:28 [chlane]
present +
18:08:03 [chlane]
scribe; chlane
18:09:22 [spectranaut]
chlane: I said I'd scribe today :) unless you really wwant to
18:09:49 [chlane]
ok
18:09:51 [cyns]
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18:09:57 [spectranaut]
zakim, next item
18:09:57 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3sYNgi1 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:10:24 [spectranaut]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1701 - milestone 1.4, put on agenda for later
18:10:38 [spectranaut]
https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/110
18:11:35 [spectranaut]
scott: figcaption is not up to date in html-aam for UIA
18:11:43 [spectranaut]
scott: I'll probably make a PR updating
18:12:01 [scotto]
https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/375
18:12:38 [spectranaut]
scotto: scoped is used in reference in header, footer and soon aside, when then map to implicit landmark roles or become generic
18:12:53 [spectranaut]
scotto: spectranaut pointed out "scoped" is not a defined term
18:13:24 [spectranaut]
scotto: I want to get some more information on similar terms, if we should use it, or if we should just define it
18:13:50 [spectranaut]
jamesn: css defines something called "scoped" which might actually work!
18:14:01 [Mayuri]
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18:14:17 [jamesn]
https://drafts.csswg.org/css-contain-2/#property-scoped
18:14:22 [spectranaut]
jamesn: they defined it as an exported definition, so if we mean what they have defined scoped as, we should use it
18:14:32 [melsumner]
do we mean something other than what computer science means?
18:14:33 [jamesn]
https://respec.org/xref/
18:14:44 [spectranaut]
jamesn: utility called "xref" which you can use to search for references
18:14:57 [spectranaut]
jamesn: and how to reference it when writing spec
18:15:02 [spectranaut]
zakim, next item
18:15:02 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3tM4fmP -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:15:15 [spectranaut]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1700
18:15:26 [spectranaut]
jamesn: editorial, peter reviewed, is that enough scott?
18:15:27 [jcraig]
q+ to say (metaphorically "say") sorry I have a meeting conflict, but if there are review assignments or other actions for me, please mention them here with jcraig in the notes and I'll review later. Thanks all.
18:15:34 [spectranaut]
scotto: its a single work sounds good
18:15:45 [spectranaut]
s/work/word
18:15:59 [spectranaut]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1699
18:16:07 [spectranaut]
scotto: needs minor review
18:16:27 [spectranaut]
scotto: trying to close carolyns old simpler issues
18:17:36 [spectranaut]
jamesn: reviewers chris lane and juanita (who needs to be added to the github org) and melanie
18:17:40 [spectranaut]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1698
18:18:23 [spectranaut]
jamesn: reviewers: melanie and james and valerie
18:18:32 [spectranaut]
https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/372
18:19:51 [spectranaut]
scotto: another html-aam from caroyln, if you review please read linked discussion
18:20:11 [spectranaut]
jamesn: sounds like something aaron or cynthia should review?
18:20:29 [spectranaut]
cyns: me and aaron are probably too swamped right now
18:20:58 [spectranaut]
cyns: if it can wait I can do it in a couple weeks
18:21:11 [spectranaut]
scotto: it can wait
18:21:28 [spectranaut]
reviewers: james, siri and cyns
18:22:07 [spectranaut]
zakim, next item
18:22:07 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, spectranaut
18:22:20 [jamesn]
q?
18:22:29 [spectranaut]
ack jcraig
18:22:29 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to say (metaphorically "say") sorry I have a meeting conflict, but if there are review assignments or other actions for me, please mention them here with jcraig
18:22:32 [Zakim]
... in the notes and I'll review later. Thanks all.
18:22:41 [spectranaut]
zakim, next item
18:22:41 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Should we meet next week? CSUN / axe-con -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:23:04 [spectranaut]
jamesn: some members are going to be at CSUN and others at axe-con
18:23:17 [spectranaut]
jamesn: if you will be there, speak up and you can all meet!
18:24:05 [spectranaut]
jamesn: maybe we will need to move the deep dive next week
18:24:22 [spectranaut]
melsumner: I agree we should push
18:24:33 [spectranaut]
jamesn: what about hte meeting next week, should we skip?
18:24:38 [spectranaut]
scotto: the internet can wait
18:25:08 [spectranaut]
jamesn: next meeting will be the 24th of march, and the next deep dive will be then as well
18:25:31 [spectranaut]
jamesn: if there is any more details to put into the agenda, melsumner please email me
18:25:57 [spectranaut]
jamesn: day lights saving is this weekend btw
18:26:01 [spectranaut]
zakim, next item
18:26:01 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:26:23 [spectranaut]
jamesn: we now have one for the 24th, any one want to propose one for 31st of march?
18:26:43 [spectranaut]
jamesn: if not, people have time
18:26:51 [spectranaut]
zakim, next item
18:26:51 [Zakim]
agendum 4 was just opened, spectranaut
18:27:04 [spectranaut]
zakim, close this item
18:27:04 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
18:27:05 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:27:05 [Zakim]
6. -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683 -> @cookiecrook https://github.com/cookiecrook to review [from agendabot]
18:27:10 [spectranaut]
zakim, next item
18:27:10 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683 -> @cookiecrook https://github.com/cookiecrook to review -- taken up [from
18:27:13 [Zakim]
... agendabot]
18:27:30 [spectranaut]
jamesn: jcraig is down to review
18:27:44 [spectranaut]
this is a nudge to jcraig
18:27:51 [spectranaut]
please review you are the last outstanding :)
18:27:56 [spectranaut]
zakim, close this item
18:27:56 [Zakim]
agendum 6 closed
18:27:57 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:27:57 [Zakim]
7. -> Should form-with-name map to IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK? https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/100 - can we close? [from agendabot]
18:27:59 [spectranaut]
zakim, next item
18:27:59 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- -> Should form-with-name map to IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK? https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/100 - can we close? -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:28:29 [spectranaut]
jamesn: scott thinks nothing needs to be updated at this point?
18:28:42 [spectranaut]
scotto: yeah I made a PR for this, but I do have one more question on the issue
18:28:50 [spectranaut]
scotto: I need clarification from jcraig
18:29:07 [spectranaut]
jamesn: we need jcraig !
18:29:09 [spectranaut]
zakim, next item
18:29:09 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- -> Figure out what to do with the DPUB mappings overlap with the ARIA Core spec, in the context of newer implementation differences
18:29:11 [Zakim]
... https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643 - publishing responded - what is next? -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:30:01 [spectranaut]
jamesn: another jcraig thing. we were waiting for the DPUB working group to get back to us and they made a comment.
18:30:09 [spectranaut]
jamesn: aaron can you read the comment?
18:30:32 [spectranaut]
aaronlev: I'll take a look
18:30:55 [spectranaut]
scotto: I'm sort of familiar with this... it seems like a lot of these roles could be solved with aria-roledescription
18:31:23 [spectranaut]
jamesn: seems like they think all things are equally important
18:32:02 [spectranaut]
jamesn: can I leave this with aaronlev and jcraig ?
18:32:33 [spectranaut]
aaronlev: I don't have time for it, I support the idea, I don't see the urgency
18:32:53 [spectranaut]
aaronlev: btw we are looking for a full time standards person at google
18:33:23 [spectranaut]
jamesn: I'm going to move the agenda and deep dive, because we just aren't ready to move anything forward here
18:33:38 [sarah_higley]
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18:33:40 [spectranaut]
zakim, next item
18:33:40 [Zakim]
agendum 9 -- -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69 - how can we move this forward? -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:34:21 [spectranaut]
bryan: I'm not sure how to consolidate everything that has been discussed into one simple PR
18:34:37 [spectranaut]
jamesn: melsumner can you help with responding to jcraig comments?
18:35:11 [spectranaut]
melsumner: we are actually waiting on jcraig who thinks he can resolve some of it, and I can also look into what I can resolve
18:35:29 [spectranaut]
zakim, next item
18:35:29 [Zakim]
agendum 10 -- -> When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description? https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57 - any updates? -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:35:50 [spectranaut]
jamesn: any updates to this accname issue?
18:36:15 [spectranaut]
aaronlev: I'm waiting for jacobo to respond to the comments I left on his PR, I pinged him yesterday
18:36:36 [aaronlev]
https://github.com/jaragunde/accname/pull/1
18:36:47 [spectranaut]
aaronlev: spectranaut can you help move this one forward?
18:36:52 [spectranaut]
yes
18:36:58 [aaronlev]
That's the current PR for the accname improvements for invisible/hidden content
18:38:04 [spectranaut]
aaronlev: it's a very long project, there is a lot of nuance
18:38:21 [spectranaut]
jamesn: I'm concerned about how hard it is in chromium, will it be hard to get into firefox and webkit?
18:38:29 [spectranaut]
aaronlev: it's harder to pave the road than drive down it
18:38:44 [spectranaut]
zakim, next item
18:38:44 [Zakim]
agendum 11 -- -> Should SPACE to be allowed to activate the <a> element? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1701 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:39:32 [spectranaut]
melsumner: specifically, I am proposing that browsers implement these space bar to active to an <a> element for links the same way a space bar will active a button
18:39:36 [Jaunita_George]
+1!!
18:39:39 [MarkMcCarthy]
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18:39:45 [MarkMcCarthy]
present+
18:39:53 [MarkMcCarthy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:39:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-aria-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy
18:40:01 [spectranaut]
melsumner: what I have done into this issue is explained how I ran into this from a use case scenario, I have since heard other people have the same problem
18:40:22 [spectranaut]
melsumner: I also looked through all the specs and can't see anywhere something that says "what should space bar do"
18:40:34 [spectranaut]
melsumner: which is weird because more other keys are covered
18:40:57 [spectranaut]
melsumner: maybe I missed something?
18:41:08 [jamesn]
q+
18:41:10 [spectranaut]
melsumner: what should a space bar do when a link <a> is focused
18:41:46 [spectranaut]
melsumner: jaws-test commented that neither the html or aria specs says how elements should be operated, it is currently left up to the browser
18:41:51 [spectranaut]
melsumner: where does this request belong??
18:41:57 [cyns]
q+
18:42:15 [jamesn]
ack me
18:42:16 [spectranaut]
melsumner: probably this group should decide philosophically, but I'm not sure where it should go finally
18:42:41 [spectranaut]
jamesn: I agree we should define this, but ARIA can't define it, and I am not sure geere it should go
18:42:49 [spectranaut]
s/geere/where/
18:42:58 [spectranaut]
jamesn: this is a fine place to track and discuss for now
18:43:04 [spectranaut]
ack cyns
18:43:07 [jamesn]
ack cyns
18:43:12 [Jaunita_George]
+1 to cyns
18:43:15 [spectranaut]
cyns: it probably belongs in html
18:43:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
+1
18:43:57 [spectranaut]
cyns: I talked to one person at html and I didn't get hard pushback. I'm happy to back channel it a little
18:45:06 [spectranaut]
everyone is very excited about focus on links is set by default
18:45:08 [spectranaut]
on mac now
18:45:22 [spectranaut]
jamesn tested it and actually it doesn't work
18:46:01 [spectranaut]
cyns: eventually, not now, we should discuss that different operating systems have different keyboard behavior
18:47:15 [cyns]
q+
18:47:16 [spectranaut]
scotto: why does anything need to change here? why do all links need to change because of confusing cause by making a link look like a button? if a link looks like a link, it's long standing behavior that space doesn't active the link? why should we change it at the element link?
18:47:38 [spectranaut]
scotto: it seems a large swing into the other direction to fix a small number of links
18:47:49 [spectranaut]
scotto: for example, when navigating a page, space bar is useful
18:48:27 [spectranaut]
scotto: jaws-test brings up a good point, if you want to style a link ot look like a button, then add a spacebar event listener
18:48:47 [spectranaut]
jamesn: maybe we could have an attribute on a link instead of having to write a javascript?
18:49:18 [spectranaut]
cyns: if you are using tab to focus on an interactive element
18:49:39 [spectranaut]
cyns: in my mind, there are things that are forms and things that are not forms, so, links are not a form so it doesn't respond to space bar
18:50:06 [spectranaut]
cyns: it this a bug? was it done on purpose?
18:50:09 [sarah_higley]
q+
18:50:19 [spectranaut]
whoops that was all melsumner not cyns ^
18:50:54 [jamesn]
s/cyns: if you/melsumner: if you/
18:51:14 [jamesn]
s/cyns: in my mind/melsumner: in my mind/
18:51:21 [aaronlev]
q+
18:51:24 [spectranaut]
cyns: keyboard interaction was thought about in the early days of implementing the internet. my impression is that it was accidental
18:51:29 [jamesn]
ack cyns
18:51:56 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/cyns: it this a bug?/melsumner: is this a bug?
18:52:02 [jamesn]
ack sarah_higley
18:52:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/whoops that was all melsumner not cyns ^/
18:52:09 [spectranaut]
sarah_higley: I'm curious how much this is actually an issue. how much this is presenting a problem to keyboard users?
18:52:28 [jamesn]
q+
18:52:43 [spectranaut]
sarah_higley: I feel like this is all speculation until there is more user research
18:52:56 [cyns]
q+ to say I've seen in usability, but it wasn't the thing being tested
18:52:59 [MarkMcCarthy]
+1 sarah_higley - good point
18:53:19 [jamesn]
ack aaronlev
18:53:21 [sarah_higley]
ack me
18:53:27 [spectranaut]
sarah_higley: because it is such a long standing behavior
18:53:35 [spectranaut]
aaronlev: what happens if you are in a form
18:54:15 [spectranaut]
aaronlev: enter does the default action in the form - so what happens if you have a link in a form?
18:54:19 [jamesn]
ack jamesn
18:54:25 [spectranaut]
aaronlev: this doesn't seem like an aria working group thing
18:54:44 [spectranaut]
jamesn: I were going to echo -- is this REALLY a user problem?
18:55:02 [spectranaut]
jamesn: we think it is a problem because we get reports in audits
18:55:31 [spectranaut]
melsumner: I see this as a minor inconvenience, if space bar doesn't work, I'll try enter
18:55:37 [sarah_higley]
@aaron enter does not submit a form when focus is on a link
18:55:42 [jamesn]
q+
18:55:43 [sarah_higley]
at least not on Windows :D
18:56:02 [scotto]
q+
18:56:07 [spectranaut]
melsumner: the element doesn't meet users expectation, but, users know you could probably also press enter.
18:56:09 [siri]
+1
18:56:12 [jamesn]
zakim, close the queue
18:56:12 [Zakim]
ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed
18:56:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
q+ to say when I flag that, it's an HTML spec congruence issue, not an ARIA thing
18:57:18 [jamesn]
ack cyns
18:57:18 [Zakim]
cyns, you wanted to say I've seen in usability, but it wasn't the thing being tested
18:57:21 [spectranaut]
melsumner: the way sarah_higley put it hit home -- content heavy websites that use anchor tabs, and you can scroll the content through anchor tabs. I just tried in aform, and it had a link in it, when you press enter in a link, it did not submit form,
18:57:39 [jamesn]
ack me
18:57:43 [spectranaut]
cyns: I've seen this come up in usability as a side issue a handful of times
18:58:21 [jamesn]
ack scotto
18:58:36 [spectranaut]
jamesn: people who try enter on a button if space doesn't -- sometime enter does something unexpected, and enters not the button you want (default button on mac?)
18:59:30 [spectranaut]
scotto: if we have to do this for links, because the visual style confusing people, what about buttons that look like links?
18:59:32 [siri]
lol
18:59:56 [spectranaut]
jamesn: is this something that could be discussed in open ui?
19:00:05 [siri]
cancel button
19:00:31 [spectranaut]
jamesn: a link that functions like a button/looks like a button
19:00:37 [spectranaut]
cyns: why do this instead of html?
19:00:41 [spectranaut]
jamesn: it's easier?
19:00:47 [spectranaut]
cyns: what about an attribute in html?
19:00:50 [spectranaut]
jamesn: oh that is fine to
19:01:02 [spectranaut]
cyns: I'll drive this discussion forward with html
19:01:07 [spectranaut]
scotto: I don't know about open ui
19:01:17 [spectranaut]
scotto: I think we should just go directly to html
19:02:09 [spectranaut]
cyns: assign it ot me
19:02:36 [spectranaut]
RSSAgent, make minutes
19:02:54 [MarkMcCarthy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:02:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-aria-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy
19:02:56 [spectranaut]
RRSAgent, maker minutes
19:02:56 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'maker minutes', spectranaut. Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:04:11 [spectranaut]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:04:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-aria-minutes.html spectranaut
19:55:50 [chlane]
quit
19:55:54 [chlane]
quit
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jongund has joined #aria
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quit
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exit