17:54:14 RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:54:14 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-aria-irc 17:54:16 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:54:18 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn 17:54:19 meeting: ARIA WG 17:54:23 chair: JamesNurthen 17:54:30 agendabot, find agenda 17:54:30 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 17:54:30 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/9f5d06ee-0254-462c-ba37-53bca9b8d9b1/20220310T130000 17:54:30 clear agenda 17:54:30 agenda+ Introductions 17:54:30 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3sYNgi1 17:54:33 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3tM4fmP 17:54:35 agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates 17:54:38 agenda+ Should we meet next week? CSUN / axe-con 17:54:41 agenda+ -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683 -> @cookiecrook https://github.com/cookiecrook to review 17:54:44 agenda+ -> Should form-with-name map to IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK? https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/100 - can we close? 17:54:47 agenda+ -> Figure out what to do with the DPUB mappings overlap with the ARIA Core spec, in the context of newer implementation differences https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643 - publishing responded - what is next? 17:54:51 agenda+ -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69 - how can we move this forward? 17:54:54 agenda+ -> When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description? https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57 - any updates? 17:54:58 agenda+ -> Should SPACE to be allowed to activate the element? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1701 17:55:52 zakim, agenda order is 1,2,3,5,4 17:55:52 ok, jamesn 17:55:58 agenda? 17:56:20 aaronlev has joined #aria 17:58:17 regrets+ PeterKrautzberger 17:58:25 regrets+ CurtBellew 17:58:32 present+ 17:59:50 melsumner has joined #aria 18:00:57 Jaunita_George has joined #aria 18:01:00 Present+ 18:02:33 scotto has joined #aria 18:02:33 present+ 18:02:58 aria has joined #aria 18:03:58 present+ 18:04:43 present+ 18:04:47 present+ 18:05:02 present+ 18:05:07 scribe: spectranaut 18:05:11 aria has left #aria 18:05:15 zakim, next item 18:05:15 agendum 1 -- Introductions -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:05:23 siri has joined #aria 18:05:25 myasonik has joined #aria 18:05:31 present+ 18:06:28 present + 18:08:03 scribe; chlane 18:09:22 chlane: I said I'd scribe today :) unless you really wwant to 18:09:49 ok 18:09:51 cyns has joined #aria 18:09:57 zakim, next item 18:09:57 agendum 2 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3sYNgi1 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:10:24 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1701 - milestone 1.4, put on agenda for later 18:10:38 https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/110 18:11:35 scott: figcaption is not up to date in html-aam for UIA 18:11:43 scott: I'll probably make a PR updating 18:12:01 https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/375 18:12:38 scotto: scoped is used in reference in header, footer and soon aside, when then map to implicit landmark roles or become generic 18:12:53 scotto: spectranaut pointed out "scoped" is not a defined term 18:13:24 scotto: I want to get some more information on similar terms, if we should use it, or if we should just define it 18:13:50 jamesn: css defines something called "scoped" which might actually work! 18:14:01 Mayuri has joined #ARIA 18:14:17 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-contain-2/#property-scoped 18:14:22 jamesn: they defined it as an exported definition, so if we mean what they have defined scoped as, we should use it 18:14:32 do we mean something other than what computer science means? 18:14:33 https://respec.org/xref/ 18:14:44 jamesn: utility called "xref" which you can use to search for references 18:14:57 jamesn: and how to reference it when writing spec 18:15:02 zakim, next item 18:15:02 agendum 3 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3tM4fmP -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:15:15 https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1700 18:15:26 jamesn: editorial, peter reviewed, is that enough scott? 18:15:27 q+ to say (metaphorically "say") sorry I have a meeting conflict, but if there are review assignments or other actions for me, please mention them here with jcraig in the notes and I'll review later. Thanks all. 18:15:34 scotto: its a single work sounds good 18:15:45 s/work/word 18:15:59 https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1699 18:16:07 scotto: needs minor review 18:16:27 scotto: trying to close carolyns old simpler issues 18:17:36 jamesn: reviewers chris lane and juanita (who needs to be added to the github org) and melanie 18:17:40 https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1698 18:18:23 jamesn: reviewers: melanie and james and valerie 18:18:32 https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/372 18:19:51 scotto: another html-aam from caroyln, if you review please read linked discussion 18:20:11 jamesn: sounds like something aaron or cynthia should review? 18:20:29 cyns: me and aaron are probably too swamped right now 18:20:58 cyns: if it can wait I can do it in a couple weeks 18:21:11 scotto: it can wait 18:21:28 reviewers: james, siri and cyns 18:22:07 zakim, next item 18:22:07 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, spectranaut 18:22:20 q? 18:22:29 ack jcraig 18:22:29 jcraig, you wanted to say (metaphorically "say") sorry I have a meeting conflict, but if there are review assignments or other actions for me, please mention them here with jcraig 18:22:32 ... in the notes and I'll review later. Thanks all. 18:22:41 zakim, next item 18:22:41 agendum 5 -- Should we meet next week? CSUN / axe-con -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:23:04 jamesn: some members are going to be at CSUN and others at axe-con 18:23:17 jamesn: if you will be there, speak up and you can all meet! 18:24:05 jamesn: maybe we will need to move the deep dive next week 18:24:22 melsumner: I agree we should push 18:24:33 jamesn: what about hte meeting next week, should we skip? 18:24:38 scotto: the internet can wait 18:25:08 jamesn: next meeting will be the 24th of march, and the next deep dive will be then as well 18:25:31 jamesn: if there is any more details to put into the agenda, melsumner please email me 18:25:57 jamesn: day lights saving is this weekend btw 18:26:01 zakim, next item 18:26:01 agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:26:23 jamesn: we now have one for the 24th, any one want to propose one for 31st of march? 18:26:43 jamesn: if not, people have time 18:26:51 zakim, next item 18:26:51 agendum 4 was just opened, spectranaut 18:27:04 zakim, close this item 18:27:04 agendum 4 closed 18:27:05 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:27:05 6. -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683 -> @cookiecrook https://github.com/cookiecrook to review [from agendabot] 18:27:10 zakim, next item 18:27:10 agendum 6 -- -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683 -> @cookiecrook https://github.com/cookiecrook to review -- taken up [from 18:27:13 ... agendabot] 18:27:30 jamesn: jcraig is down to review 18:27:44 this is a nudge to jcraig 18:27:51 please review you are the last outstanding :) 18:27:56 zakim, close this item 18:27:56 agendum 6 closed 18:27:57 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:27:57 7. -> Should form-with-name map to IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK? https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/100 - can we close? [from agendabot] 18:27:59 zakim, next item 18:27:59 agendum 7 -- -> Should form-with-name map to IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK? https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/100 - can we close? -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:28:29 jamesn: scott thinks nothing needs to be updated at this point? 18:28:42 scotto: yeah I made a PR for this, but I do have one more question on the issue 18:28:50 scotto: I need clarification from jcraig 18:29:07 jamesn: we need jcraig ! 18:29:09 zakim, next item 18:29:09 agendum 8 -- -> Figure out what to do with the DPUB mappings overlap with the ARIA Core spec, in the context of newer implementation differences 18:29:11 ... https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643 - publishing responded - what is next? -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:30:01 jamesn: another jcraig thing. we were waiting for the DPUB working group to get back to us and they made a comment. 18:30:09 jamesn: aaron can you read the comment? 18:30:32 aaronlev: I'll take a look 18:30:55 scotto: I'm sort of familiar with this... it seems like a lot of these roles could be solved with aria-roledescription 18:31:23 jamesn: seems like they think all things are equally important 18:32:02 jamesn: can I leave this with aaronlev and jcraig ? 18:32:33 aaronlev: I don't have time for it, I support the idea, I don't see the urgency 18:32:53 aaronlev: btw we are looking for a full time standards person at google 18:33:23 jamesn: I'm going to move the agenda and deep dive, because we just aren't ready to move anything forward here 18:33:38 sarah_higley has joined #aria 18:33:40 zakim, next item 18:33:40 agendum 9 -- -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69 - how can we move this forward? -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:34:21 bryan: I'm not sure how to consolidate everything that has been discussed into one simple PR 18:34:37 jamesn: melsumner can you help with responding to jcraig comments? 18:35:11 melsumner: we are actually waiting on jcraig who thinks he can resolve some of it, and I can also look into what I can resolve 18:35:29 zakim, next item 18:35:29 agendum 10 -- -> When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description? https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57 - any updates? -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:35:50 jamesn: any updates to this accname issue? 18:36:15 aaronlev: I'm waiting for jacobo to respond to the comments I left on his PR, I pinged him yesterday 18:36:36 https://github.com/jaragunde/accname/pull/1 18:36:47 aaronlev: spectranaut can you help move this one forward? 18:36:52 yes 18:36:58 That's the current PR for the accname improvements for invisible/hidden content 18:38:04 aaronlev: it's a very long project, there is a lot of nuance 18:38:21 jamesn: I'm concerned about how hard it is in chromium, will it be hard to get into firefox and webkit? 18:38:29 aaronlev: it's harder to pave the road than drive down it 18:38:44 zakim, next item 18:38:44 agendum 11 -- -> Should SPACE to be allowed to activate the element? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1701 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:39:32 melsumner: specifically, I am proposing that browsers implement these space bar to active to an element for links the same way a space bar will active a button 18:39:36 +1!! 18:39:39 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria 18:39:45 present+ 18:39:53 RRSAgent, make minutes 18:39:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-aria-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy 18:40:01 melsumner: what I have done into this issue is explained how I ran into this from a use case scenario, I have since heard other people have the same problem 18:40:22 melsumner: I also looked through all the specs and can't see anywhere something that says "what should space bar do" 18:40:34 melsumner: which is weird because more other keys are covered 18:40:57 melsumner: maybe I missed something? 18:41:08 q+ 18:41:10 melsumner: what should a space bar do when a link is focused 18:41:46 melsumner: jaws-test commented that neither the html or aria specs says how elements should be operated, it is currently left up to the browser 18:41:51 melsumner: where does this request belong?? 18:41:57 q+ 18:42:15 ack me 18:42:16 melsumner: probably this group should decide philosophically, but I'm not sure where it should go finally 18:42:41 jamesn: I agree we should define this, but ARIA can't define it, and I am not sure geere it should go 18:42:49 s/geere/where/ 18:42:58 jamesn: this is a fine place to track and discuss for now 18:43:04 ack cyns 18:43:07 ack cyns 18:43:12 +1 to cyns 18:43:15 cyns: it probably belongs in html 18:43:17 +1 18:43:57 cyns: I talked to one person at html and I didn't get hard pushback. I'm happy to back channel it a little 18:45:06 everyone is very excited about focus on links is set by default 18:45:08 on mac now 18:45:22 jamesn tested it and actually it doesn't work 18:46:01 cyns: eventually, not now, we should discuss that different operating systems have different keyboard behavior 18:47:15 q+ 18:47:16 scotto: why does anything need to change here? why do all links need to change because of confusing cause by making a link look like a button? if a link looks like a link, it's long standing behavior that space doesn't active the link? why should we change it at the element link? 18:47:38 scotto: it seems a large swing into the other direction to fix a small number of links 18:47:49 scotto: for example, when navigating a page, space bar is useful 18:48:27 scotto: jaws-test brings up a good point, if you want to style a link ot look like a button, then add a spacebar event listener 18:48:47 jamesn: maybe we could have an attribute on a link instead of having to write a javascript? 18:49:18 cyns: if you are using tab to focus on an interactive element 18:49:39 cyns: in my mind, there are things that are forms and things that are not forms, so, links are not a form so it doesn't respond to space bar 18:50:06 cyns: it this a bug? was it done on purpose? 18:50:09 q+ 18:50:19 whoops that was all melsumner not cyns ^ 18:50:54 s/cyns: if you/melsumner: if you/ 18:51:14 s/cyns: in my mind/melsumner: in my mind/ 18:51:21 q+ 18:51:24 cyns: keyboard interaction was thought about in the early days of implementing the internet. my impression is that it was accidental 18:51:29 ack cyns 18:51:56 s/cyns: it this a bug?/melsumner: is this a bug? 18:52:02 ack sarah_higley 18:52:02 s/whoops that was all melsumner not cyns ^/ 18:52:09 sarah_higley: I'm curious how much this is actually an issue. how much this is presenting a problem to keyboard users? 18:52:28 q+ 18:52:43 sarah_higley: I feel like this is all speculation until there is more user research 18:52:56 q+ to say I've seen in usability, but it wasn't the thing being tested 18:52:59 +1 sarah_higley - good point 18:53:19 ack aaronlev 18:53:21 ack me 18:53:27 sarah_higley: because it is such a long standing behavior 18:53:35 aaronlev: what happens if you are in a form 18:54:15 aaronlev: enter does the default action in the form - so what happens if you have a link in a form? 18:54:19 ack jamesn 18:54:25 aaronlev: this doesn't seem like an aria working group thing 18:54:44 jamesn: I were going to echo -- is this REALLY a user problem? 18:55:02 jamesn: we think it is a problem because we get reports in audits 18:55:31 melsumner: I see this as a minor inconvenience, if space bar doesn't work, I'll try enter 18:55:37 @aaron enter does not submit a form when focus is on a link 18:55:42 q+ 18:55:43 at least not on Windows :D 18:56:02 q+ 18:56:07 melsumner: the element doesn't meet users expectation, but, users know you could probably also press enter. 18:56:09 +1 18:56:12 zakim, close the queue 18:56:12 ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed 18:56:34 q+ to say when I flag that, it's an HTML spec congruence issue, not an ARIA thing 18:57:18 ack cyns 18:57:18 cyns, you wanted to say I've seen in usability, but it wasn't the thing being tested 18:57:21 melsumner: the way sarah_higley put it hit home -- content heavy websites that use anchor tabs, and you can scroll the content through anchor tabs. I just tried in aform, and it had a link in it, when you press enter in a link, it did not submit form, 18:57:39 ack me 18:57:43 cyns: I've seen this come up in usability as a side issue a handful of times 18:58:21 ack scotto 18:58:36 jamesn: people who try enter on a button if space doesn't -- sometime enter does something unexpected, and enters not the button you want (default button on mac?) 18:59:30 scotto: if we have to do this for links, because the visual style confusing people, what about buttons that look like links? 18:59:32 lol 18:59:56 jamesn: is this something that could be discussed in open ui? 19:00:05 cancel button 19:00:31 jamesn: a link that functions like a button/looks like a button 19:00:37 cyns: why do this instead of html? 19:00:41 jamesn: it's easier? 19:00:47 cyns: what about an attribute in html? 19:00:50 jamesn: oh that is fine to 19:01:02 cyns: I'll drive this discussion forward with html 19:01:07 scotto: I don't know about open ui 19:01:17 scotto: I think we should just go directly to html 19:02:09 cyns: assign it ot me 19:02:36 RSSAgent, make minutes 19:02:54 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:02:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-aria-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy 19:02:56 RRSAgent, maker minutes 19:02:56 I'm logging. I don't understand 'maker minutes', spectranaut. Try /msg RRSAgent help 19:04:11 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:04:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/03/10-aria-minutes.html spectranaut 19:55:50 quit 19:55:54 quit 20:01:33 jongund has joined #aria 21:55:19 quit 21:55:23 exit